Southern Europeans don't work

[maniak]

A friend of mine posted the following magazine cover on facebook today. He went on a rant about how the EU is fecked and we can't count on any solidarity.

But putting that aside, by now I assume a really big percentage of europeans have traveled throughout Europe. I believe the magazine is dutch and you can't walk 10 meters in Lisbon without listening to dutch or german or a scandinavian language. This being the case, people have witnessed with their own eyes how different countries work and the lifestyle its peoples have. Not statistics (that show the average portuguese/spanish/greek works more hours and gets less money that northern europeans) but things they can actually see with their eyes.

So how can this completely stereotypical view still exist nowadays?

 

[horsechoker]

Haven't many southern Europeans migrated to other places and now work in northern Europe. If they're so lazy I doubt that companies would hire them over a more hard-working Northern European.

 

[V.O.]

I'd imagine the stereotype has a root in the whole 'Protestant work ethic' thing. Even if it was true, I've never understood why selling more of your time for money and spending less of it with your family or on other shit you actually want to do is supposed to be so virtuous.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

I can confirm this. In Bulgaria it seemed to me that everyone sits outside all day drinking coffee. My kind of country.

 

[711]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a four hour siesta, it's just pacing yourself really. You have to be rested in case anything happens.

 

[Revan]

Having lived in Italy, Germany and Switzerland, I would say that people work more (and as importantly, much more efficiently) in Germany and Switzerland than in Italy. And it is not even particularly close.

I found Italians too relaxed while working (and that in very different fields). Even for basic stuff, like just doing shopping on the grocery store, I was chatting like 5 minutes when paying, while some other costumer would have been waiting on line. I also typically was having a lunch break of 1.5 hours in Italy, compared to 30-45 minutes in Switzerland/Germany.

The stereotypes often are based in real world.

 

[shamans]

When I was in Italy most of the staff at restaurants, bars or service industry in general were from Asia. Young Italians were just chilling. Just based off a two week trip though

 

[711]

Let's face it, opening poster is a typical southern european, manages to put together one minor thing, thinks he's had a hard day, and then fecks off for a few more hours sleep.

 

[11101]

Having lived in Italy, Germany and Switzerland, I would say that people work more (and as importantly, much more efficiently) in Germany and Switzerland than in Italy. And it is not even particularly close.

I found Italians too relaxed while working (and that in very different fields). Even for basic stuff, like just doing shopping on the grocery store, I was chatting like 5 minutes when paying, while some other costumer would have been waiting on line. I also typically was having a lunch break of 1.5 hours in Italy, compared to 30-45 minutes in Switzerland/Germany.

The stereotypes often are based in real world.

Fully agree. I work between Italy and Switzerland. Its frustrating how inefficient the Italians are, everything takes twice as long as it should and is rarely done properly.

Neither are anywhere close to London.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I work for a company with affiliates all over the world. In my experience the Italians work much longer days than the Germans (who clock off bang on time every day) but somehow still take longer than everyone else to get stuff done.

 

[Rams]

When I was in Italy all the Italians were killing babies and steeling your gold. In fact , being inefficient & lazy in my vast experience of different cultures from Europe & Asia in particular very much depends on the individual.
That Elsevier magazine is a disgrace. The cover reminds me of Nazi propaganda from occupied Netherlands during WWII. Apart from the offensive cover it claims that Southern Europeans are richer than Northern Europeans, therefore Northern Europe should not help with a rescue package for the Italians.

 

[Atze-Peng]

As it turns out usually there are reasons why stereotypes develop. Germans are nazis due to their past. Brits have bad weather since while the amount of rainfall is similar, it is more spred. And as it turns out, southern european countries usually don't have the workhours than northern ones. And also have earlier retirement age (which sparked a big debate here when Greece started struggling).

Which would be perfectly fine that they prioritise things differently. Less work and organisation usually means less wealth. The problem is the idiotic idea of having a single currency for these cultural differences - essentially forcing nations to either become identical (so much about diversity, right?) or go bust.

And no, that doesn't mean that southern europeans are lazy. Nor does it mean there are no diligent people in the south or no lazy people in the north. And to be honest, the italians and greeks I have in my social circle openly admit this difference between German work ethic (which they identify with more due to being integrated here) and the souther work ethic.

 

[maniak]

I can confirm this. In Bulgaria it seemed to me that everyone sits outside all day drinking coffee. My kind of country.

But who is making the coffee? A german?

 

[maniak]

The stereotypes often are based in real world.

Even when the stats show that portuguese work more weekly average hours than germans or swiss and have less vacation days per year?

I'm sorry but taking a couple of examples of people talking for 5 minutes with you at the grocery store or having longer lunch brakes (which is really irrelevant if you end up working more time at the end of the day) isn't going to convince me the stereotype is based on the real world.

 

[maniak]

Let's face it, opening poster is a typical southern european, manages to put together one minor thing, thinks he's had a hard day, and then fecks off for a few more hours sleep.

I had to go take care of my mustache.

 

[maniak]

As it turns out usually there are reasons why stereotypes develop. Germans are nazis due to their past. Brits have bad weather since while the amount of rainfall is similar, it is more spred. And as it turns out, southern european countries usually don't have the workhours than northern ones. And also have earlier retirement age (which sparked a big debate here when Greece started struggling).

Which would be perfectly fine that they prioritise things differently. Less work and organisation usually means less wealth. The problem is the idiotic idea of having a single currency for these cultural differences - essentially forcing nations to either become identical (so much about diversity, right?) or go bust.

And no, that doesn't mean that southern europeans are lazy. Nor does it mean there are no diligent people in the south or no lazy people in the north. And to be honest, the italians and greeks I have in my social circle openly admit this difference between German work ethic (which they identify with more due to being integrated here) and the souther work ethic.

If a portuguese magazine made a cover with german people holding nazi flags people would be outraged and rightly so. I don't see why it's different to imply the south lives at the back of the north.

As I've said, southern european workers work more hours that northern workers. Retirement age is much higher in Portugal and Italy than northern countries. But people seem to keep repeating the opposite as if it were true.

I'm not even going to get into the whole work ethic thing as it would be impossible to quantify, but for every example you provide for one side, I can provide one for the other side.

And you say, "no, that doesn't mean that southern europeans are lazy" but that is exactly what the magazine cover is saying. Exactly.

 

[Abizzz]

Northern Europeans tend to go to holiday locations in the southern countries... where they tend to meet people from said country that are also on holiday. Let's be honest, who's gonna spend a 2 week holiday in Piraeus? They go to Naxos...


Some of the answers in this thread

 

[Revan]

Even when the stats show that portuguese work more weekly average hours than germans or swiss and have less vacation days per year?

I'm sorry but taking a couple of examples of people talking for 5 minutes with you at the grocery store or having longer lunch brakes (which is really irrelevant if you end up working more time at the end of the day) isn't going to convince me the stereotype is based on the real world.

Not wanting to convince you or anything, just telling my perspective from living 4 years in Venice, 1 in Zurich and 1 in Munich. I don't think that it was even particularly close that German-culture is much more work-oriented and people work both harder and smarter.

No idea about Portuguese, I only spent a few days there. However, there was a Portuguese in my group in the last year of my PhD, who worked less than the others (and had worse progress). To compensate though, the Catalan (similar culture) had Chinese-like work dedication and work endurance, essentially a robot. And well, in any group I've been, the Chinese are extreme hard workers.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Northern Europeans tend to go to holiday locations in the southern countries... where they tend to meet people from said country that are also on holiday. Let's be honest, who's gonna spend a 2 week holiday in Piraeus? They go to Naxos...


Some of the answers in this thread

Aye, Naxos is a pretty dry and dull city in itself. Lipari and the aeolian Islands is where the party is at

 

[Abizzz]

Aye, Naxos is a pretty dry and dull city in itself. Lipari and the aeolian Islands is where the party is at

Naxos is nice for cruising around on a motorbike But there's dozens if not hundreds of beautiful Greek islands, I just picked the one I visited most recently

 

[Penna]

I don’t see this “lazy Italian” thing at all. The country is ridiculously bureaucratic which slows things down, but the people themselves are hard workers. I've just been to the village and the supermarket was open, the doctor's surgery was open, a team were doing renovation work on a church, there were people everywhere at 7.30 am.

 

[RobinLFC]

Even when the stats show that portuguese work more weekly average hours than germans or swiss and have less vacation days per year?

I'm sorry but taking a couple of examples of people talking for 5 minutes with you at the grocery store or having longer lunch brakes (which is really irrelevant if you end up working more time at the end of the day) isn't going to convince me the stereotype is based on the real world.

Doesn't mean much to me. It doesn't matter how much weekly hours you average, it's how productive you are with the hours you're working.

I was in Madrid for work for 2 weeks and their whole daily schedule is just different. Most people didn't come in before 10am, they take a long break from 1-3pm and then they work again until 9-10pm. It was weird to be a part of and I didn't really like it. I could do probably the work I did in those hours between 8am and 1pm if they just let me. This whole "coffee corner culture" also exists in the USA if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think southern Europeans are necessarily more lazy but the system works differently (and from my experience, less efficient). You feel more relaxed, not stressed out at all, but you have less free time because you're lingering on stuff more than usual. Again, just my experience of course.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I've worked with quite a few Portuguese people in IT as a lot come to Dublin to work in it and I've generally found them to be excellent, hard workers. Also worked with a few Germans who will rarely stay past 5.30 yet still seemed to get more work done than everyone else. Italians? Yeah, not great, neither were the Spanish.

Polish are the best of the lot, though. Never worked with a Polish person who would let their work not be done before going home in the evening. Finneh would be proud.

 

[OleBoiii]

than the Germans (who clock off bang on time every day)

It's part of the Northern European work culture: work never ends. When a task is done, there will always be another. You need to draw an arbitrary line somewhere, otherwise people will feel bad for leaving work earlier than others. Once the time schedule is set though, we expect efficiency in said time-frame. But when the day is done, you always get to leave unless it's an emergency.

Work/life balance is very important to Northern Europeans. That's why we have a lot of vacation days and flexibility in general. Forced overtime work is rare, and you'll be well compensated for your efforts.

It's also important to add that a Northern European boss rarely acts like a typical "boss". The hierarchy in the workplace tends to be rather flat. People don't really fear their boss, and the bosses rarely give the employees a reason to be nervous.

 

[SirAF]

Doesn't mean much to me. It doesn't matter how much weekly hours you average, it's how productive you are with the hours you're working.

I was in Madrid for work for 2 weeks and their whole daily schedule is just different. Most people didn't come in before 10am, they take a long break from 1-3pm and then they work again until 9-10pm. It was weird to be a part of and I didn't really like it. I could do probably the work I did in those hours between 8am and 1pm if they just let me. This whole "coffee corner culture" also exists in the USA if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think southern Europeans are necessarily more lazy but the system works differently (and from my experience, less efficient). You feel more relaxed, not stressed out at all, but you have less free time because you're lingering on stuff more than usual. Again, just my experience of course.

I know there are cultural differences at play and so on, but that just seems extremely weird to me too. You're basically ruining your whole day by doing that - why not finish up work during normal hours so you can actually have some free time in the second half of the day?

 

[RobinLFC]

I know there are cultural differences at play and so on, but that just seems extremely weird to me too. You're basically ruining your whole day by doing that - why not finish up work during normal hours so you can actually have some free time in the second half of the day?

Colleagues seemed to be good friends who were used to hanging out together. They ordered pizza at the office at 8pm, then went for drinks when they left at 9-10pm. Lots of afterworks in the city every day as well, but I wouldn't wanna have a family and deal with those kind of work schedules tbh.

Maybe it was just the culture of my firm though and not necessarily a fair representation of the Spanish work ethic as a whole, dunno. Just my experience. During summer (low season for us), they were able to go home everyday at 3-4pm though, or so I was told.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's part of the Northern European work culture: work never ends. When a task is done, there will always be another. You need to draw an arbitrary line somewhere, otherwise people will feel bad for leaving work earlier than others. Once the time schedule is set though, we expect efficiency in said time-frame. But when the day is done, you always get to leave unless it's an emergency.

Work/life balance is very important to Northern Europeans. That's why we have a lot of vacation days and flexibility in general. Forced overtime work is rare, and you'll be well compensated for your efforts.

It's also important to add that a Northern European boss rarely acts like a typical "boss". The hierarchy in the workplace tends to be rather flat. People don't really fear their boss, and the bosses rarely give the employees a reason to be nervous.

My experience of German working culture is that it’s quite hierarchical. Agree with everything else you say. And I like the working culture. Work-life balance should be important.

US working culture is the worst, by far. The long hours of Italy, with the intensity of Germany.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

But who is making the coffee? A german?

They usually get a Turk in.

 

[SirAF]

Colleagues seemed to be good friends who were used to hanging out together. They ordered pizza at the office at 8pm, then went for drinks when they left at 9-10pm. Lots of afterworks in the city every day as well, but I wouldn't wanna have a family and deal with those kind of work schedules tbh.

Maybe it was just the culture of my firm though and not necessarily a fair representation of the Spanish work ethic as a whole, dunno. Just my experience. During summer (low season for us), they were able to go home everyday at 3-4pm though, or so I was told.

Definitely not, I wouldn't as a single person either to be honest!

As a side note, I follow a YouTuber who used to work as an English teacher in Japan. He once talked about how it was basically a requirement to remain at the office long after the work was done - he wouldn't do anything productive, he'd just sit there reading a book or surfing the web and his colleagues would congratulate him on his "hard work"
I realise that's a part of the Japanese collectivistic culture, but it still sounds absurd to me.

 

[RobinLFC]

Definitely not, I wouldn't as a single person either to be honest!

As a side note, I follow a YouTuber who used to work as an English teacher in Japan. He once talked about how it was basically a requirement to remain at the office long after the work was done - he wouldn't do anything productive, he'd just sit there reading a book or surfing the web and his colleagues would congratulate him on his "hard work"
I realise that's a part of the Japanese collectivistic culture, but it still sounds absurd to me.

I didn't know @marukomu was a YouTuber

 

[horsechoker]

I find the Danish working culture to be the best (that I know of), they seem to get everything done in 32-36 hours a week. Moreover, they're not so work obsessed as the Germans and realise the importance of letting your hair down and spending time with friends and family. I don't know if this is similar in Norway and Sweden too.

 

[OleBoiii]

My experience of German working culture is that it’s quite hierarchical.

Yeah, Germany is a bit more "traditional" than Scandinavia.

Up here, the boss is essentially just another worker with slightly more money and power. Any boss who acts like a boss will lose the respect of the workers very quickly. Apparently(though I can't attest to this personally), a lot of bosses from other countries have found Norwegian bosses hilariously down to earth. One stated that on multiple occasions he'd seen Norwegian CEOs bent down with their own toolkit from home, trying to fix their own desk.

 

[SirAF]

I didn't know @marukomu was a YouTuber

Yeah, it's a niche channel

Nah, Abroad in Japan.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

My experience of German working culture is that it’s quite hierarchical. Agree with everything else you say. And I like the working culture. Work-life balance should be important.

US working culture is the worst, by far. The long hours of Italy, with the intensity of Germany.

I've worked with Americans and German working culture definitely takes some time to get used to. It's not uncommon to still address colleagues by your last name after 10 years of working together. Although that is changing I think.

And then there is the notorious German directness. Has anyone heard of the hamburger approach of criticism? I found that in one of the Business English books I use. Basically the bun represents a compliment which sandwiches the constructive criticism (the meat of the matter). They used Japan, America and Germany as examples. Japanese working culture is so indirect and all about saving face that there is just the bun and no meat, i.e. when the boss tells you to come into his office there won't even be any criticism but the fact that you've been called in means that you've done something wrong. In America you'd start off with saying something nice before getting to the issue at end and then finish politely. In Germany, you might have guessed it, there is just the meat. Meaning the boss will tell you in front of everyone that your work is shit without sugar-coating it. That's a vast simplification obviously but I've heard from Americans and Brits that is definitely something you need to be prepared for in Germany.

 

[balaks]

Why is working considered good? I'd much rather relax and chill out than work if I could get away with it.

 

[horsechoker]

Why is working considered good? I'd much rather relax and chill out than work if I could get away with it.

Get back to work ya lazy bum!

*cracks whip*

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Why is working considered good? I'd much rather relax and chill out than work if I could get away with it.

Very good point. That has been my strategy during Corona.

 

[Raees]

Very interesting insights in this thread... I think it is similar story in the subcontinent... Indians are percieved as harder working and very focused whereas Pakistani's like to take work less seriously albeit are very business minded and entreprenuerial.

Personally speaking as a lawyer, I detest the workaholic culture of Northern Europeans but that might just be the profession in of itself. Seems to be a work hard and then have to drink hard type of culture where the drinking involves seeing the same old fecking faces you had to see at work... which leaves little time for me time and family time.

Whats the social/work experiences you guys had on your travels?

 

[VorZakone]

The Japanese take that work culture shit too far.

 

[OleBoiii]

I detest the workaholic culture of Northern Europeans but that might just be the profession in of itself. Seems to be a work hard and then have to drink hard type of culture where the drinking involves seeing the same old fecking faces you had to see at work... which leaves little time for me time and family time

What?! This doesn't sound like Northern Europe at all!

Personally speaking as a lawyer,

Ah... Lawyers are a bit different(my impression). Probably because it's one of the few professions where it's very possible to get rich without starting your own company.