Really interesting to see how they’ll conclude this saga. Wasn’t a fan of TLJ though.
Film Star Wars Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker [Theories]
- Thread starter vidic blood & sand
- Start date
Why?
It’s hardly a ridiculous opinion. Both were shit, Last Jedi was just more shit.
There was a time when such a take would make me weep. However, as I've got older I've realised it's ok that other people have terrible opinions.
I don't give a shit to be honest. I used to be a huge Star Wars fan and I still like Episodes one to six and the old comics, but this Disney takeover destroyed the franchise.
I mean that's pretty meh but other than that what is so bad about it?
OK. I thought the movie was pretty good overall, which some minor annoyances. Episode 3 is the only prequel that I think is half way decent.
Amen to that brother...
What did 'Disney' do? If you don't like the direction of the ST, blame Lucasfilm. They still make the movies.
While we're at it, does anyone think Rey and Finn are good characters at all?
That's fair, though I meant to say that the things made ever since Disney took over are substandard, not that they are directly responsible for the shortcomings of the movies.
Poor phrasing I admit.
I enjoyed their banter in EP 7. I do think Finn was hard done by in 8 though.
The ones to blame for TLJ are none other than KK and Ruin Johnson the Freak.
Rian Johnson always seems a nice guy to me. Imagine the abuse some of the nutcases online would have sent him. And he just seems to take it all in his stride.
I've no idea why he wants to keep making SW movies after the fallout from TLJ.
I've no idea why he wants to keep making SW movies after the fallout from TLJ.
Would you prefer people pretended it made good choices? It made that money because it's a Star Wars film and critics praised it, the fans couldn't object to what happened in it until they saw it therefore they paid to see it. Then the backlash happened and they didn't pay to see Solo. You're making it sound like people thought it was shit and then paid to see it anyway. The backlash was so bad and Solo flopped so hard in the wake of it that they changed their entire franchise plan scrapping a bunch of films over it. They could have been making over £1bn a year with Star Wars films but realised they'd fecked that one up.
This.
I think we both know if that's the only scene they have with them back on screen together people aren't going to like it.
I don't remember seeing anyone complaining about fanservice, it needed fanservice yet handled it badly was the main complaint I saw outside of the obvious ones about the story and Rey.
People are going to be hyperbolic about Star Wars because it was such a huge thing for so many people for decades.
I think I misread this at first. I would the argue fanservice backlash agasint TFA and Rogue One shows that SW gets dinged for it more than any other franchise.
I don't care how well they did a reunion scene, half the fanbase would hate it. The fanbase just wants different things.
The more I've followed the fanbase, the more I think you can't win. They should just make the movies they want to make. They will be shit on almost no matter what they do.
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No, I recall that the complaint was they essentially remade Episode 4 but maybe I missed that.
I do recall it with Rogue One, more to do with the Leia and Tarkin faces than anything though. I thought most people loved the Vader scene as it made him bad ass again. I actually quite liked Rogue One although I know not everyone did yet it seems to get a lot less hate than TFA and TLJ.
I'd argue that people didn't flock to see the Solo movie for a number of reasons, not just in response to The Last Jedi. The backlash to that was definitely part of it, but you also have to factor in that Solo's name clearly can't sell a movie by itself. And because it came less than five months after The Last Jedi I think you have to factor in general audience fatigue. General audiences will go to see the Skywalker saga (and Rogue One, which is technically part of it) but even under normal circumstances I don't think Solo would have ever topped $700m worldwide. It's part of why Ant-Man and the Wasp was the "worst performing" film of the MCU's third phase (it still topped $600m). People just aren't interested in spin-off movies that nobody really asked for and don't really affect the main story. Even massive Star Wars nerds weren't really that interested - it's why the Boba Fett and Obi-Wan films are basically dead in the water. Throw in the fact that Solo was marred by production troubles which were public knowledge months before the film came out and it was basically guaranteed to under-perform and highly likely to flop, which it did.
But I guess this is moving away from my original point, which is that writers taking a franchise in a different direction to audience expectations isn't grounds enough for it to be declared a "cinematic failure". It also doesn't justify sending death threats to the creators and harassing cast members until they're forced to go dark on social media. Hell, I love The Last Jedi now but the first time I saw it I was pleasantly entertained but slightly disappointed because I expected better from Rian Johnson. I thought the Canto Bight stuff was a waste of time, I didn't think many of the comedy beats worked that well, I thought it was a little too long, and with the way The Force Awakens ends you could have forgiven me for thinking Luke would return fully recharged and ready to force-throw Star Destroyers into suns. But instead of running to the Internet to get upset about it and declaring the trilogy a disaster, I just left the cinema comfortable in the knowledge that my ideas didn't match those of the creators. Sometimes, that's just fine. As it happens, a second viewing a few months later made it my favourite film of the entire franchise but that's beside the point.
The creators of this trilogy should just be left to create, and if extreme fan pressure forces them to change aspects of the story then it'll be a sad day for storytelling. This isn't exclusive to Star Wars, this isn't even exclusive to film. There was that petition to reshoot Game of Thrones' final season, there were calls on social media for Arctic Monkeys to release a new album to "make up for" Tranquility Base Hotel + Casino, the creators of that planned Sonic movie have changed their design of him due to social media negativity, the reaction to the Cats trailer was hysterical, and a couple of years ago Peter Kay was forced to do another episode of Car Share because people just decided they didn't like his original vision. To bring it back to Star Wars, Jake Lloyd retired from acting as a child and wound up in a psychiatric facility because he was bullied at school and criticised by fans for his portrayal of Anakin. He was fecking 10. This idea that fans have ownership over a story, this idea that fans know better than creators, it's always been there, but these days the barriers between creators and fans has largely evaporated because of social media. That ain't a good thing.
J. J. Abrams has said on several occasions that he wishes he'd been bold enough to write The Last Jedi in the way Rian Johnson did: "It’s so good, I wish I were making it." It would be a shame if he backed out of everything The Last Jedi committed to, or if Disney forced him to, because of mob rule. And you know what? If they do a 180 on The Last Jedi and completely reverse all the apparently controversial decisions, it would be a shame and it would be pretty cowardly, but you'll never find me complaining about how much it sucked almost two years later. I'll just move on with my life and accept that my vision of the film just happened to be different from that of the creators. I'm not gonna flex my amateur screenwriting muscles and start planning out how I would have written it, because that's the number one rule of art that we should all adhere to: creators create, the audience consumes. They're better at this job than we could ever dream of being. This is why Rian Johnson was so eager to see someone try to recreate The Last Jedi with a $200m budget: it would have failed spectacularly.
I liked it, but lots didn't like the Vader scene. If I recall right, the dislike of Rogue One's fanservice was fulled by RLM.
I think Rogue One had some issues but it felt closer in the balance between fan service, new characters and telling a decent story. The Vader scene has been the best thing Disney has done with Star Wars for me, it fixed a lot of the issues that Lucas created for the character in the prequels. How do you reconcile the whiny sand hater with the most feared man in the galaxy? Then they showed what happens when Vader goes on a rampage and that's why people shit their pants when he turns up.
RLM are all over the place when it comes to Star Wars at times and get a bit weird with Star Trek too.
This is the least hyped I've ever been for a new Star Wars movie 
About Bohemian Rhapsody? Oh boy...
It's grounds enough when these new choices seem to upset a large portion of a fan base that have been with the franchise for 30+ years. It's grounds to be declared a failure when you had grand plans to milk it for billions and had to scale that way way back and see where the next film lands. It's grounds when you had grand plans to sell millions of toys but can't shift them because the new generation of kids aren't connecting with the non-characters you've come up with. It's grounds to be declared a failure when you spend £4bn on something and then realise it might have gone a bit wrong. When your theme park is failing. When your films are being torn apart and you're resorting to blaming sexists and trolls. When you've given people free reign on stories with no sort of forward planning or overarching plan and found yourself in a position where you've been written into having pretty much no ongoing drama or story and you've thrown away characters that were still a draw for millions.
Listing insane things some fans did doesn't invalidate the opinions of all others. Some people getting attacked on Twitter by a minority of fans doesn't negate the opinions of other fans as much as Kathleen Kennedy would like you to think it does. Should we negate the opinions of all GoT fans because of what you yourself got up to with your timeline? When you have a multibillion dollar franchise that is having issues you can't just pretend all is fine and move on.
You know what, if you don't like it and don't talk about it again that's fine it's your choice. Millions of people have been with the franchise for decades, are/were still passionate about it and are not happy with how it's been handled. You, nor Kathleen Kennedy, nor JJ Abrams nor that other clown get to tell them to shut up and move on because it's Rian's fancy art now. They probably won't change much and will double down on stuff because they took a militant attitude to criticism last time, that doesn't make them right. They might still make their billion, but you rarely see anyone excited for Star Wars now. Even in this thread there's only a couple of you, if you kill people's enthusiasm for something they love then they are going to react badly to it.
"Oooooh, that's really good."
If they ever want to do a good SW movie, they should stuff the canon and do Thrawn.
You'll end up pumped when the trailer drops...guaranteed.This is the least hyped I've ever been for a new Star Wars movie
Oh, mate. I've been a fan of this franchise for 20 years too, you know. I wasn't born when the original trilogy was out but I watched all the VHS tapes until they broke before I was old enough to understand them properly. I saw all the prequels in the cinema when they came out and watched all the originals again and again. When I was sick, when I was off school, when I was bored, it was basically Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and Pixar movies and nothing else. I collected all the little golden figurines from the prequels that you got in Kellogg's cereal, I had a plastic lightsaber and dressed up as Darth Maul for Halloween, all that. This is my franchise as much as it's yours, in that it's neither of ours. The franchise isn't me either, and I have no ownership over it. I won't go and see The Rise of Skywalker on opening night or anything - I'm the kind of Star Wars fan who'll maybe wait a week, wait until the crowds die down, and then go and see it. I'm a fan and I adored it as a kid but I'm cool on it.
The bits in bold are just, like, your opinions, man. And therein lies the problem I think you're having here: it's just a film franchise. It's not you, or your life, and you haven't "been with it" for thirty years, in the end they're just films and you have no say in how they go. You don't need to protect its legacy or get angry about it or anything. Your individual headcannon isn't how things should go just because you feel that's how it should. So you think a large portion of the fanbase are upset? Hell, task your average Star Wars fans about the prequels and you'll learn that they mostly sucked. The Force Awakens still made a bomb! They'll get taken in directions you don't like sometimes, but that doesn't seem to stop them from making shit loads of money with new ones. That doesn't make them cinematic failures - The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi were, unquestionably, commercial and critical successes. The Rise of Skywalker will be too, it's basically a default expectation because Star Wars is Star Wars
Frankly I'm glad that Disney's idea to turn it into a super franchise is having a rocky time of it (because feck Disney, trying to buy the entire world
), but saying things like "you barely see anyone getting excited for Star Wars now" is just a flat out lie. Your view of the world isn't reality just because you say so. You say they've created "non-characters" with these films while making the mistake of killing of Han and Luke, but kids care more about Finn and Rey now. They're the heroes of this new story, which is what the sequels are. A new story. Not only that, but I can show you a video of a very well-attended Star Wars conference from about two months ago where a hall full of older people screamed with joy just at the sight of Ian McDiarmid. The teaser trailer for Rise has 32m views on YouTube, and cinema screenings will be sold out for weeks around Christmas. It's not a sign of how good or bad it might be, it's just default because Star Wars is Star Wars. You could say toy sales and theme park attendances are falling because The Last Jedi sucked. I could argue back that people are poorer than they've ever been and can't afford to buy as many toys and theme park tickets as they used to. You can prove anything when you try hard enough. But regardless, if you're so invested and passionate about something that it can upset you this much then you need to back off. I can't remember who said it, but there was this scholar who said that to enter a personal relationship with TV/entertainment franchises, etc. is to enter a doomed relationship, because one day it will either end before you want it to or lose what made you fall in love with it. Maybe take his advice? I dunno.
Hope so!
TLJ did a number on Disney and that is a fact.
TFA gave fans back the Star Wars feel but TLJ just did their heads in.
The sad part with Disney´s Star Wars is that the spin off´s have been "better".
Rouge One and Solo were both decent pop corn flicks but TFA was a ANH reboot and TLJ was pathetic. Rian Johnson even made sure that the third act would have to be something badly made up, ooh the Emperor is back HAHAHAHAHAHA.
This will make loads of money and be better than TLJ but it will be a very bad start from Disney.
TFA gave fans back the Star Wars feel but TLJ just did their heads in.
The sad part with Disney´s Star Wars is that the spin off´s have been "better".
Rouge One and Solo were both decent pop corn flicks but TFA was a ANH reboot and TLJ was pathetic. Rian Johnson even made sure that the third act would have to be something badly made up, ooh the Emperor is back HAHAHAHAHAHA.
This will make loads of money and be better than TLJ but it will be a very bad start from Disney.
The emperor's return is not because of TLJ, it's been talked about since before the ST started.
How you feel about the franchise does not negate other people's feelings. Therein lies your problem, I'm giving my opinion at no point did I state I was doing anything other than that. I didn't say I had a headcanon, I stated I wasn't happy with what I got and stated why I think it's failing. Given the backlash it's fairly obvious there's a lot of people unhappy with what they got. I've said in other threads I didn't think parts of TLJ were that bad and wasn't that bothered by Luke's actual story, that doesn't mean I don't see the problems of where they've taken the franchise.Oh, mate. I've been a fan of this franchise for 20 years too, you know. I wasn't born when the original trilogy was out but I watched all the VHS tapes until they broke before I was old enough to understand them properly. I saw all the prequels in the cinema when they came out and watched all the originals again and again. When I was sick, when I was off school, when I was bored, it was basically Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and Pixar movies and nothing else. I collected all the little golden figurines from the prequels that you got in Kellogg's cereal, I had a plastic lightsaber and dressed up as Darth Maul for Halloween, all that. This is my franchise as much as it's yours, in that it's neither of ours. The franchise isn't me either, and I have no ownership over it. I won't go and see The Rise of Skywalker on opening night or anything - I'm the kind of Star Wars fan who'll maybe wait a week, wait until the crowds die down, and then go and see it. I'm a fan and I adored it as a kid but I'm cool on it.
The bits in bold are just, like, your opinions, man. And therein lies the problem I think you're having here: it's just a film franchise. It's not you, or your life, and you haven't "been with it" for thirty years, in the end they're just films and you have no say in how they go. You don't need to protect its legacy or get angry about it or anything. Your individual headcannon isn't how things should go just because you feel that's how it should. So you think a large portion of the fanbase are upset? Hell, task your average Star Wars fans about the prequels and you'll learn that they mostly sucked. The Force Awakens still made a bomb! They'll get taken in directions you don't like sometimes, but that doesn't seem to stop them from making shit loads of money with new ones. That doesn't make them cinematic failures - The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi were, unquestionably, commercial and critical successes. The Rise of Skywalker will be too, it's basically a default expectation because Star Wars is Star Wars
Frankly I'm glad that Disney's idea to turn it into a super franchise is having a rocky time of it (because feck Disney, trying to buy the entire world
You could say toy sales and theme park attendances are falling because The Last Jedi sucked. I could argue back that people are poorer than they've ever been and can't afford to buy as many toys and theme park tickets as they used to. You can prove anything when you try hard enough. But regardless, if you're so invested and passionate about something that it can upset you this much then you need to back off. I can't remember who said it, but there was this scholar who said that to enter a personal relationship with TV/entertainment franchises, etc. is to enter a doomed relationship, because one day it will either end before you want it to or lose what made you fall in love with it. Maybe take his advice? I dunno.
I do rarely see people excited by Star Wars. Why would I state anything other than what I see? I mean what are you asking for here? Why wouldn't people cheer McDiarmuid? I'd cheer him. I'd cheer Mark Hammill, Harrison Ford, Billy Dee Williams why wouldn't I? I'd politely clap for Daisy Ridley or John Boyega, I hold no ill will for them despite feeling nothing but apathy for their characters. I don't see what you're getting at, of course people still love McDiarmuid, but I see very little excitement for the new film. The thing I see most is people wondering how bad this one is going to be.
It's so successful they cancelled a bunch of films. It might get taken in directions I don't like at times and I have the right to express my opinions on that. Which I'm doing. There's nothing outlandish or insane about that. I don't need to take a step back or not be upset because I'm not particularly upset, I'm talking about a subject I'm passionate about and I have opinions on that. If you don't like those opinions then that's your right, but you don't get to reduce my opinions by claiming I'm upset and need to back off. I'm perfectly fine talking about a film on the internet. I mean you had to be banned from the Game of Thrones thread because you couldn't control yourself and you're telling someone they need to back off because they have opinions on something? Seriously?
At no point have I stated I have the power the change what they've done with the franchise, that doesn't mean I should just accept it without comment and shuffle off to consume some other product.
Is that why Solo flopped? Even if it was indeed a factor it'd be pretty ingenuous to cite it as the only reason when Solo had production problems with a change in director meaning it didn't get heavy promotion, and when it just ultimately wasn't a very exciting or interesting idea for a prequel film. Not to mention it came out around May, just months after TLJ as well.
I didn't mind TLJ but didn't see Solo because I wasn't really arsed about it. And I'm sure there were plenty of other people who, similarly, didn't hold much against TLJ but nevertheless had no real interest in a run-of-the-mill prequel effort that didn't really need to exist.
Ultimately I think SW fans overestimate the extent to which TLJ was/is hated. There were a lot of legitimate criticisms to be thrown at it and someone raising those issues can do so without being an incredulous fanboy or whatever, but at the same time the most ardent critics, presumably insulated in their own little bubble, don't seem to realise that millions saw TLJ and thought it was fine for the most part.
And even if there were narrative issues, a lot of it ultimately comes back to fans who just weren't really going to be happy no matter what direction the films went in. Because I'm not really sure there is a satisfying direction they can take the franchise in that's simultaneously fresh and surprising but isn't a rehash of what's gone before. Because they're fundamentally telling a story that was already told in the 70s and 80s...and which would've been better just stopping them if it weren't for its obvious cash cow status.
I don't know if it was the reason, but it obviously didn't help and Solo flopping in the wake of the backlash seems like a factor in the sudden cancellation of the other films. In the run up to it there was talk of boycotts and whatnot, if they took place I don't know and I doubt it was even enough people to dent them, but the hype had significantly died down. There was very little of that before TLJ. Cancelling most of your films in the wake of one isolated flop seems like a bit of an overreaction.
To be honest I thought Solo was just a bad idea to begin with, Han Solo doesn't need a prequel film. I've not seen it as I had no interest in it. My point was about TLJ making over £1bn so everything is fine. When it made the £1bn, then the backlash happened and the only film since then is Solo which flopped. So assuming that the next one is definitely going to hit £1bn because the last one did is ignoring the context. It might hit £1bn, but I don't think it's a guarantee any more.
Solo flopped for many reasons. The main one being that it was not a wanted movie to begin with. Secondly, it's release in May hurt it a lot. I do think it would have done a bit better in December. I don't believe that there were any TLJ protests that hurt it to any large degree.
If SW struggles at the box office moving forward the main reason will be it's utter failure to appeal to the Asian market, thus missing out on the Chinese Box Office. Comic book movies do huge business there but Star Wars might as well not exist to them.
All 6 of the proper Star Wars films came out in May though? In fact it was only Disney that started bringing them out in December.
You can see how hard they are trying to appeal to that market too with mixed results. The Raid cast in TFA is the one that annoys me. Getting them in and just having them stand there is such a waste.