Tackles by attacking players

amolbhatia50k

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Always liked Martial but 1 tackle :lol:
 

JPRouve

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Why are you focussing on Liverpool? Our front three’s stats are atrocious compared to every other club on that list. Almost certainly every other club in the league. There’s no way you can justify their abysmal return on the basis that Ole is implementing tactics that no other club in the league uses.
Because you are making the argument that more is better and since Liverpool have more tackles between their attackers than anyone else, logically I will use them as a point of reference. And it's also worth mentioning that Bruno mainly plays in the last third, so it's a bit weird to not include him. But to got further if you look at pressures, United's top three players are Bruno, Rashford and Martial, that trio is below Liverpool's but above City's or Leceister's. The point being that you can't analyze effort or the team with a limited stat like tackles while ignoring the context and other stats that are on the same topic.

Now if the goal is just to vent then go ahead but focus on Martial because 1 succesful tackle is banter-worthy but there is no analysis to do.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Because you are making the argument that more is better and since Liverpool have more tackles between their attackers than anyone else, logically I will use them as a point of reference. And it's also worth mentioning that Bruno mainly plays in the last third, so it's a bit weird to not include him. But to got further if you look at pressures, United's top three players are Bruno, Rashford and Martial, that trio is below Liverpool's but above City's or Leceister's. The point being that you can't analyze effort or the team with a limited stat like tackles while ignoring the context and other stats that are on the same topic.

Now if the goal is just to vent then go ahead but focus on Martial because 1 succesful tackle is banter-worthy but there is no analysis to do.
Bruno’s a midfielder, not a forward. This thread is specifically about the (lack of) defensive effort of our forwards.
 

Chabon

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If anyone can be arsed I’d love to see per 90 stats. It might bring Greenwood and Cavani a bit closer to strikers at other clubs. Probably make Rashford look even worse (it’s not possible to make Martial look any worse)
Not quite what you asked, but how many minutes they played for each tackle

Greenwood 8 in 786 (98)
Cavani 6 in 528 (88)
Rashford 6 in 1629 minutes (272)
Martial 1 in 1155 (you can do that maths yourself)
 

Bilbo

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I'm more concerned with the lack of quality that Martial showed on the ball last night. Rashford was just as bad but gets a grudging pass from me, but Martial is really having a piss poor season and it was something that was quite predictable after we signed some serious competition for his position. It would be hard to argue against anyone who claimed he just doesn't have the stones to play for this team, and his tackling stats are unacceptable.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Not quite what you asked, but how many minutes they played for each tackle

Greenwood 8 in 786 (98)
Cavani 6 in 528 (88)
Rashford 6 in 1629 minutes (272)
Martial 1 in 1155 (you can do that maths yourself)
Jesus wept. What’s the going rate? How does that compare with, say, Kane and Son? (seeing as people think comparing with teams that do a high press is unfair)
 

Godfather

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Even Ronaldo has more than Martial and the same number as Rashford. Let that sink in.
 

Deery

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I think the real question here is should we get rid of Martial and how much would we get for him?
 

Chabon

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Jesus wept. What’s the going rate? How does that compare with, say, Kane and Son? (seeing as people think comparing with teams that do a high press is unfair)
Just did the comparison with the 12/13 side because I had the page open still:

Welbeck: 36 in 1293 (36)
Nani: 10 in 629 (63)
Kagawa: 17 in 1323 (78)
Rooney: 20 in 2018 (100)
Van Persie: 24 in 3124 (130)
Chicharito: 7 in 945 (135)

Danny Welbeck was a pioneer, frankly. Shame about his knees.
 

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I think the real question here is should we get rid of Martial and how much would we get for him?
30m? I don't see much of a fight for him. He's on a long contract, massive wages. I think we're stuck with him as a squad option for the time being. To be honest, I've thought he was squad option striker for awhile, his performances are proving that. But can you imagine him coming off the bench regularly and looking up for it if that ended up being his role? Not a chance in hell.
 

harms

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While the point is valid (although to an extent, considering our tactics), illustrating it with tackles is misleading to put it mildly. Even more important stats like goals/assists for forwards require additional context to make any coherent argument, using tackles for strikers on the other hand...

Why won’t you add penalties won to that? It may sound ridiculous at first, but the positioning of our forwards in defensive phase (look at Rashford’s positioning during Liverpool’s attacks through the right wing in the cup game) play a big role in both. Rashford, for example, is mostly freed from any defensive duties, unlike Greenwood. Martial is a lazy git, but that’s hardly news to anyone.
 

DWelbz19

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The crazy thing is Ole must be aware of those stats. Do you think he’s been taking Martial aside before our last dozen games or so and saying “I believe in you Antony, today’s the day when you will make your second tackle of the season!”?
He has 1 more goal than he has successful tackles this season. :nervous:
 

Pogue Mahone

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Just did the comparison with the 12/13 side because I had the page open still:

Welbeck: 36 in 1293 (36)
Nani: 10 in 629 (63)
Kagawa: 17 in 1323 (78)
Rooney: 20 in 2018 (100)
Van Persie: 24 in 3124 (130)
Chicharito: 7 in 945 (135)

Danny Welbeck was a pioneer, frankly. Shame about his knees.
Cool. Thanks. Looks like Greenwood and Cavani have nothing to be ashamed of.
 

Deery

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30m? I don't see much of a fight for him. He's on a long contract, massive wages. I think we're stuck with him as a squad option for the time being. To be honest, I've thought he was squad option striker for awhile, his performances are proving that. But can you imagine him coming off the bench regularly and looking up for it if that ended up being his role? Not a chance in hell.
I don’t see it in him at all, he has his moments and scores the odd goal but let’s be honest most strikers would score goals at United. I’d happily take Danny Ings as a replacement for him let alone a super star like Haaland. Cavani has really showed him up and he’s a 33 year old striker on his way out but has twice the desire as Martial.
 

Smores

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So is Cavani the only one that listens to instructions or is he just doing it on his own initiative?

Either way there's an issue.
 

Siorac

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I'm more concerned with the lack of quality that Martial showed on the ball last night. Rashford was just as bad but gets a grudging pass from me, but Martial is really having a piss poor season and it was something that was quite predictable after we signed some serious competition for his position. It would be hard to argue against anyone who claimed he just doesn't have the stones to play for this team, and his tackling stats are unacceptable.
Yeah. He's been one of my favourite players for a long time but this season is indefensible. His lack of tangible contribution is really quite something. I'm leaning towards selling him: he's absolutely not suited to being a squad player and no forward in our starting XI should be this bad for this long. It's a shame. If he had Bruno's mentality and attitude, he'd be a star but then it's my auntie's bollocks territory again.

Looking at how varied our tackling stats are per minute, I'm inclined to say this, too, goes back to the root of most of our problems: we don't really have any sort of system. Players press when they feel like it - so Bruno always presses, Martial never does -, there's no organised press or a conscious decision to only press in our half.
 

Chabon

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Cool. Thanks. Looks like Greenwood and Cavani have nothing to be ashamed of.
Well, they've done better than Kane and Son who have made a tackle every 146 and 128 mins this season respectively.

I also thought I'd check the gold standard, and while he wasn't exactly a forward, Park Ji Sung made a tackle every 31 minutes during his time at United (excluding his first season, for which the PL didn't keep tackling stats).
 

harms

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Bruno’s a midfielder, not a forward. This thread is specifically about the (lack of) defensive effort of our forwards.
Based on what metric? Last night we defended in a shape of a 4-4-2 with Bruno and Martial ahead of a midfield line of Rashford - Matic - Pogba - Greenwood.
 

Siorac

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Park Ji Sung made a tackle every 31 minutes during his time at United
:lol: that can't be right. Even for Park. That's mental. I believe you but at the same time it's unbelievable.
 

fps

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Just for the record, Bruno Fernandes has made 35 tackles. While the three United players nearest him on the pitch have made either 13 or 15 tackles combined, between the three of them.
His desire last night when the Red Sea parted for that SU lad was great to see.
 

JPRouve

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Bruno’s a midfielder, not a forward. This thread is specifically about the (lack of) defensive effort of our forwards.
Bruno is one of our main players in the last third, that's barely debatable. As an attacking midfielder he more often than not is on the same line or higher than our strikers when we are out of possession in the last third which is where attackers are mainly meant to be in a position to tackle. By not including him you miss the fact that his individualy contribution from a tactical standpoint will reduce everyone else stats because the same area is occupied by 4 players instead of 2 or 3.
 

Havak

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No surprise to see Martial so low. Almost every single aspect of his game is awful at the moment.

He just looks devoid of any confidence or enthusiasm. The only time I saw him put any effort into the Sheffield United game was when Bruno demanded he press early in the second half.

Greenwood hasn't been good either, but he feels more dangerous and hard-working than Martial. He should be getting the minutes instead right now. Everyone needs to improve, but I did say in a thread earlier this season, Martial will be the one to miss out more this season. He really should be, it's getting to a stage now where I don't see how Ole can continue to select him.
 

Lassitude42

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Rashford and Martial don't want to defend, they want to stand about waiting for a counter so they can do some ineffectual head down dribbling

One or both needs to go
 

Born2Lose

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I think it's embarrassing at times to watch a veteran like Cavani still putting a defensive shift while Rashford and Martial walk around like they're peak Ronaldo and Messi.

There'll come a time when Ole will have to make tough calls on some popular players if he wants the club to get back to the very top.

As seen against Liverpool, give Rashford space and his pace and athleticism comes to the fore, but it's completely nullified against teams that sit deep. We need players with more intelligence in their positions. You can see the difference when Bruno plays with Cavani and he's got someone on his wavelength.

Said it for a long time, but our fullbacks are really underappreciated. AWB and Shaw get little support defensively whilst being expected to provide crosses because Rashford and Martial can't cross.
 

Bilbo

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Yeah. He's been one of my favourite players for a long time but this season is indefensible. His lack of tangible contribution is really quite something. I'm leaning towards selling him: he's absolutely not suited to being a squad player and no forward in our starting XI should be this bad for this long. It's a shame. If he had Bruno's mentality and attitude, he'd be a star but then it's my auntie's bollocks territory again.

Looking at how varied our tackling stats are per minute, I'm inclined to say this, too, goes back to the root of most of our problems: we don't really have any sort of system. Players press when they feel like it - so Bruno always presses, Martial never does -, there's no organised press or a conscious decision to only press in our half.
With regards of tackling there is some defence there (no pun intended) for Martial because its clear that he is told not to press that often. He lingers in space hoping for quick counter opportunities along with Marcus, and we get a lot of joy from that, but having said that there are still a LOT of opportunities for him to win tackles when one of our attacks has broken down, and it rarely happens.

I think its time to move him on too. I think he has shrunk away from the challenge that Cavani has presented this season, and if Cavani was 5 years younger there would rarely ever be a reason to use Martial anymore. I think we'd benefit overall from reinvesting his value into a different type of player.
 

JPRouve

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One interesting stat about Martial is that he has committed more fouls than he has attempted tackles. Ole probably doesn't even want him to tackle. :lol:
 

Chabon

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:lol: that can't be right. Even for Park. That's mental. I believe you but at the same time it's unbelievable.
Best part is that's not including his time at QPR, where he seems to have practically been a CB going by his stats, this is whole PL career (exc. 05/06), defensively speaking:



That's in 85 starts, a tackle every 29.8 minutes...

People really underrate how important nominally 'attacking' players like Park, Welbeck, Tevez, and Valencia were to Fergie. Even Nani ended up being a winger who absolutely ran himself into the ground for the side.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Bruno is one of our main players in the last third, that's barely debatable. As an attacking midfielder he more often than not is on the same line or higher than our strikers when we are out of possession in the last third which is where attackers are mainly meant to be in a position to tackle. By not including him you miss the fact that his individualy contribution from a tactical standpoint will reduce everyone else stats because the same area is occupied by 4 players instead of 2 or 3.
If you insist on including him it really just highlights how utterly pathetic the players that occupy the same area of the pitch are in comparison. He’s made 35 tackles. Almost three times as many as Rashford, Martial and Cavani combined.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I think it's embarrassing at times to watch a veteran like Cavani still putting a defensive shift while Rashford and Martial walk around like they're peak Ronaldo and Messi.

There'll come a time when Ole will have to make tough calls on some popular players if he wants the club to get back to the very top.

As seen against Liverpool, give Rashford space and his pace and athleticism comes to the fore, but it's completely nullified against teams that sit deep. We need players with more intelligence in their positions. You can see the difference when Bruno plays with Cavani and he's got someone on his wavelength.

Said it for a long time, but our fullbacks are really underappreciated. AWB and Shaw get little support defensively whilst being expected to provide crosses because Rashford and Martial can't cross.
Crossing towards two strikers whose movement in the box and ability in the air is way below the best around.
 

Bwuk

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I think Rashford and Martial are both lazy, and don't have the winners mentality required to win titles.
 

Classical Mechanic

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So is Cavani the only one that listens to instructions or is he just doing it on his own initiative?

Either way there's an issue.
Cavani has always played like that. He's consummate professional when it comes to his conditioning and he runs tirelessly. He's always had a reputation for having a low bottom level though which we've seen on the ball in the past couple of games.
 

harms

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Yeah that didn’t happen.
Literally the first random bit of play that I've clicked on — we've just conceded a free kick (after Greenwood's tackle, what do you know!)




And how do you think our team shape is going to transform in the next few seconds, while we're adjusting to Sheffield controlling possession? I guess our forwards are going to move up and Bruno, our midfielder, is going to drop, well, in midfield?



Oh well! Somehow Bruno runs forward, Greenwood goes back and then turns around to face forward, Rashford stays back before reacting to the ball moving towards his wing.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Literally the first random bit of play that I've clicked on — we've just conceded a free kick (after Greenwood's tackle, what do you know!)




And how do you think our team shape is going to transform in the next few seconds, while we're adjusting to Sheffield controlling possession? I guess our forwards are going to move up and Bruno, our midfielder, is going to drop, well, in midfield?



Oh well! Somehow Bruno runs forward, Greenwood goes back and then turns around to face forward, Rashford stays back before reacting to the ball moving towards his wing.
You’re really just demonstrating what we all know already and what this thread is about. Bruno works considerably harder than Rashford and Martial at closing down/tackling the opposition. Doesn’t mean he was playing upfront with Rashford and Greenwood in midfield. That didn’t happen. It’s never happened.
 

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Be interested to see the figures with interceptions included.
This.

I don't believe those Utd stats on Martial and Rashford. Martial with 1 tackle that's nonsense. Their style of winning the ball must be being interpreted as interceptions.