Switch to 4-3-3, but switch Pogba and VdB (I thought we got him for deep midfield position?).
Tactics 20/21: switching to 4-3-3
- Thread starter ThinkTank@Cafe
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Yes but DVB will probably be better at holding than Pogba.
Guerreiro, Cancelo, Semedo?
You’re asking an, essentially, attacking player to make a full switch to a defensive role. It’s not a case of Giggs/Martial/Cristiano etc., where players had to slightly adjust.
More so, the issues with positional discipline and defensive workrate is not something that Pogba can overcome with ease – you’re talking like no one had ever asked him to perform this role before and if someone would’ve asked, he would’ve learned it already. He fell out with Mourinho exactly because Mourinho tried to make him a more all-rounded midfielder with a significant improvement in his defensive effort... and it wasn’t even a holding midfield role that you suggest for him.
It’s like picking some random midfielder that can’t score even if his life was on the stake (not technically poor, just impotent in front of the goal) and put him as a number 9 because he’s fast and holds the ball well.
Semedo would do the most attacking, better than AWB a n that regard but AWB still gets forward a lot so I don’t see how it wouldn’t work..
Its a strange one.
We've got 4 box to box midfielders in Bruno, Pogba, Fred and VDB. With Fred being the most defensive.
Then we have Matic as a CDM and McT being groomed for the position. But honestly, he doesn't impress me there.
I think the diamond on paper makes sense for the midfielders and atrackers. It negates our issues/depth on the wing. But our wing backs don't offer enough width to make it work. We'd need to buy attacking full backs to make it work.
With 3 in the middle, I think the most balance is from Pogba, Bruno and Matic. With VDB rotating with Pogba/Bruno.
So in summary, I don't think much has changed in terms of balance of the first 11. We just have more depth with VDB.
We've got 4 box to box midfielders in Bruno, Pogba, Fred and VDB. With Fred being the most defensive.
Then we have Matic as a CDM and McT being groomed for the position. But honestly, he doesn't impress me there.
I think the diamond on paper makes sense for the midfielders and atrackers. It negates our issues/depth on the wing. But our wing backs don't offer enough width to make it work. We'd need to buy attacking full backs to make it work.
With 3 in the middle, I think the most balance is from Pogba, Bruno and Matic. With VDB rotating with Pogba/Bruno.
So in summary, I don't think much has changed in terms of balance of the first 11. We just have more depth with VDB.
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We could have easily played that formation with Fred as the 3rd midfielder. Fact is he went with Matic, and even when Fred did play the shape was the same.
4231. Get used to it.
I don’t see it but I could see a midfield diamond as an option with two up front sometimes.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with that. Don’t see a diamond formation working at all with us, but it’s a good problem to have with more quality in the squad..
I’m not against 4-2-3-1, it was great. Signing VdB instead of DM is intriguing, and I’m thinking of it as an implication of some tactical change
The whole point of a flat midfield 3 is that so a player like Pogba wont have to play deep by himself.
We’ll move to 433 but we won’t play Pogba at 6.
I think we’ll start the season with McT, Pogba and Bruno as the midfield 3.
I think we’ll start the season with McT, Pogba and Bruno as the midfield 3.
What were we playing in oles original successful run? Which ended in that week of injuries to Herrera, Mata and another against liverpool, i thought from then on he changed things because of no Herrera
We often play 4-3-3 or 3-3-3-1 while we have the ball, and 4-2-3-1 off the ball. Most formations are fluid. But we do play with 2 deeper midfielders and one #10. VDB can play both as an #8 in a 2 man midfield, and as a #10.
It really only works if your fullbacks are good enough to run the entire 90 minutes and provide quality width. In attack it's essentially the False 9 with the two inside forwards and the 10 being more of a deeper striker, while the fullbacks are pushed super high to provide the width still. Only works with the proper fullbacks and deadly pressing though, neither of which we are good enough at.
I actually think he could be really good in a. team that presses like demons, where he could just clean up the loose balls, recycle possession, and foul people to prevent counters a la Liverpool and City. But in any game where we have to defend in our own half more, he'd be pretty dreadful because he isn't great at nicking the ball or positioning himself defensively near our own box.
Don't trust Ole will switch.
The system at OP may work but low chance. It depends a lot on Bruno and VDB to help Pogba a lot defensively and during build-up. Need a good organized positioning and team-play coaching really which we don't really have. So actually the system is a Flat 433. Biggest problem of this is limiting Pogba's attacking ability even more. Unless we're setting up a haphazard system.. screw shape of midfield.
Anyway putting VDB as the DM instead with Bruno and Pogba could work better in theory. Both Bruno and Pogba who have improved massively in defense workrate and ability (but still not enough solo) are enough to make it work. Didn't VDB sometimes play DM, although maybe in 2 man DMs.
The system at OP may work but low chance. It depends a lot on Bruno and VDB to help Pogba a lot defensively and during build-up. Need a good organized positioning and team-play coaching really which we don't really have. So actually the system is a Flat 433. Biggest problem of this is limiting Pogba's attacking ability even more. Unless we're setting up a haphazard system.. screw shape of midfield.
GK
RB --- CB --- CB --- LB
Bruno --- Pogba --- VDB
RW --- CF --- LW
RB --- CB --- CB --- LB
Bruno --- Pogba --- VDB
RW --- CF --- LW
Anyway putting VDB as the DM instead with Bruno and Pogba could work better in theory. Both Bruno and Pogba who have improved massively in defense workrate and ability (but still not enough solo) are enough to make it work. Didn't VDB sometimes play DM, although maybe in 2 man DMs.
VDB
Bruno --- Pogba
Alternatively is putting either one of Bruno or Pogba as false RW. We don't have a RW anyway and have been playing Mata and Lingard in that roles, while James is the only one offering to stretch the wings but usually play poor there and Greenwood spent more times cutting infield than stretching the wing.. so like a false RW. Won't make too much of a difference.. except Bruno/Pogba could even wreck havoc to the defense better than those players. Ole favors Pogba deeper so Bruno is more likely at RW.Bruno --- Pogba
Matic
VDB --- Pogba
Bruno --- Martial --- Rashford
or
Matic
Bruno --- VDB
Pogba --- Martial --- Rashford
VDB --- Pogba
Bruno --- Martial --- Rashford
or
Matic
Bruno --- VDB
Pogba --- Martial --- Rashford
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Pogba as DLP 
. season is in the bin already
. season is in the bin alreadyNo he will rotate with Bruno and Pogba. His best position is as a 10 but can play a little further back. Would be wasted playing deep.
Pogba absolutely can't play as the deep lying midfielder. Will be an absolute disaster.
No he doesn’t Bernardo Silva is the one playing in that role not Bruno!
This OP is a little misleading because the video doesn't suggest Pogba deep with Bruno and VDB ahead of him. It suggests Matic deep with Bruno & Pogba as 8s rather than an 8 and a 10.
Two of Bruno, Pogba and van de Beek should be starting most matches for Manchester United. This will give us an option to play the diamond on occasions for tactical and predictability reasons.
I’d say we will be able to count on one hand the amount of times that all three will start.
Knowone has the right to start for Manchester United based on a fee. Let’s enjoy the ride and see them fight it out.
I’d say we will be able to count on one hand the amount of times that all three will start.
Knowone has the right to start for Manchester United based on a fee. Let’s enjoy the ride and see them fight it out.
This is the diamond.
Maybe this is Ole‘s Plan as we know we won’t get Sancho and therefore going for 2 strikers who also keep drifting wide:
Ole prefers the 4231 and there's no need to obsess with fitting every attacking player into a single 11. Play two out of Bruno, Pogba and VDB and one out of Matic, Fred and Mctominay, unless the opposition (very weak / warrants). Seeing a lot of gymnastics with people clamouring for a diamond or a 532 just to accomodation VDB. It's not needed, we've got a good thing going with a front three and the midfield should compliment that whoever plays on the day based on form.
I like the 433 especially since it brings the three CMs closer together. But one of them has to be one of our defensive players on most occasions.
I like the 433 especially since it brings the three CMs closer together. But one of them has to be one of our defensive players on most occasions.
Can Bruno play as a false #9?
Agree with this. Given our current options, Matic has to start. I think VDB was purchased for depth/rotation. I don't see him replacing Pogba, Matic or Bruno but rotating with the latter and starting FA Cup games.
Playing Pogba so deep is a waste of his offensive capabilities. It's a waste of talent (not to mention money) to simply have him back there "pinging" long/cross field passes.
If Scott could somehow replicate Matic when he was in his prime that would be perfect.
This.
We used Fred there to decent success but not Pogba. VDB will rotate.
McTomainy is not a CDM, and neither is van de Beek. McTominay is a hard working nr. 8, and Donny is a nr. 8 or a nr. 10.
We need to get another CDM, because its not enought with an aging Matic alone. We dont need another player who can play as a CDM, but a player who has CDM as his best position.
Sounds like Matic. He will end up there no doubt, but it won’t come natural for him. Doing it now would be a waste of his attacking talents. It’s already a shame to see him to stuck to his position and not arriving in the box at all.
As pretty much everyone has said, Pogba as the deepest midfielder/in a defensive role would be a disaster.
His best attributes defensively is that he does work back and he can hold a man up, but thats pretty much it.... in terms of defensive nous/intercepting/positioning he's sorely lacking, which is fine, 'cos ultimately that isn't the type of midfielder he is.
His best attributes defensively is that he does work back and he can hold a man up, but thats pretty much it.... in terms of defensive nous/intercepting/positioning he's sorely lacking, which is fine, 'cos ultimately that isn't the type of midfielder he is.
One of Bruno, Pogba or VDB will be on the bench. The other two will play with Matic.
Pogba can play as a deep-lying playmaker (indeed that's how he was used this season, and in fact most of his time here), but not as the most defensive-minded member of the trio which is how you've got him listed in the OP. He simply is not good enough defensively to do so. He needs somebody else next to him who is focused more on that aspect, whether that's through good defensive positioning or huge workrate. Both Bruno and VDB seem to have good workrate but probably more in pressing in offensive areas rather than deeper areas.
Agree. No way Pogba can be trusted as DMF. Even VDB would make a better choice in 12 months time (as DMF), but not yet. I doubt we will play all 3 unless we are chasing a goal. 532 is possible with 3 CB, but only in a few games. On a typical 433 or 4231, 1 will be rested, which is what VDB is for. Unless you expect Bruno will play 50 games a season.
Of course there will be rotations of players and changes of systems, but let's assume we have a Champions League knockout game tomorrow and every player on our books is 100% match fit and raring to go...
Matic starts, Pogba starts, Van de Beek starts, Fernandes starts.
For me, a good solution would be to play with Fernandes close to Martial in a 'Rooney' role - then Pogba can tuck in to make it a midfield 3, or roam out to the right/left to offer width when needed. I remember us doing something similar with Hargreaves in 2008, so the shape changed from a 4-3-3 to a 4-4-2 in-match. Then if we want to take control of the game, Pogba can tuck in, Fernandes can fall back and you've got 4 players in the middle of the pitch who are very difficult to get the ball from, you can strangle the opposition.
Solskjaer has some nice options.
Matic starts, Pogba starts, Van de Beek starts, Fernandes starts.
For me, a good solution would be to play with Fernandes close to Martial in a 'Rooney' role - then Pogba can tuck in to make it a midfield 3, or roam out to the right/left to offer width when needed. I remember us doing something similar with Hargreaves in 2008, so the shape changed from a 4-3-3 to a 4-4-2 in-match. Then if we want to take control of the game, Pogba can tuck in, Fernandes can fall back and you've got 4 players in the middle of the pitch who are very difficult to get the ball from, you can strangle the opposition.
Solskjaer has some nice options.
People talking like Pogba hasn't already been our deepest midfielder since he returned?
VDB will play the role Fred has. The first one to press, the first to join the attack when we have position in their half. He will get up alongside Bruno to give Martial more help in the box, as that's where he's best.
Pogba has already been doing the job of a "DLP" just with Matic along side him, but that rarely works as they're just both too big and slow to accelerate.
VDB will play the role Fred has. The first one to press, the first to join the attack when we have position in their half. He will get up alongside Bruno to give Martial more help in the box, as that's where he's best.
Pogba has already been doing the job of a "DLP" just with Matic along side him, but that rarely works as they're just both too big and slow to accelerate.
He has been played as DLP indeed. It’s just overlooked.People talking like Pogba hasn't already been our deepest midfielder since he returned?
VDB will play the role Fred has. The first one to press, the first to join the attack when we have position in their half. He will get up alongside Bruno to give Martial more help in the box, as that's where he's best.
Pogba has already been doing the job of a "DLP" just with Matic along side him, but that rarely works as they're just both too big and slow to accelerate.
What you are describing is a system with a DM and a DLP (although I'd argue Pogba is more B2B as he joins attacks too). And with VdB it will make a significant change to that system, swapping the DM for a B2B. That seems to be a lot more offensive and unbalanced midfield, in my opinion. And I doubt we will see it against any high pressing team.People talking like Pogba hasn't already been our deepest midfielder since he returned?
VDB will play the role Fred has. The first one to press, the first to join the attack when we have position in their half. He will get up alongside Bruno to give Martial more help in the box, as that's where he's best.
Pogba has already been doing the job of a "DLP" just with Matic along side him, but that rarely works as they're just both too big and slow to accelerate.
That's how it should be
Very amusing seeing calls for Pogba as the DM considering the prior threads on here about needing to unburden him of any defensive duties.
I think his weaknesses in that position are well known. I can see why some might think he'd be the new Carrick but he'd be the 'bad Carrick' where he exposed the defence, let men run past him and got dispossessed when pressed.
I think his weaknesses in that position are well known. I can see why some might think he'd be the new Carrick but he'd be the 'bad Carrick' where he exposed the defence, let men run past him and got dispossessed when pressed.