The “Ole In” Brigade

ivaldo said:
And 13 months and 1 window is not long enough, not after 5 years of abject disappointment, an overpaid and aging squad signed under 4 different managers.

No it isn't, not even close. Just what are we basing that on?
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Not enough to fight for 4th? get to absolute feck.

I'm done here, the debate is absolute nonsense, of course 150m of signings and 13 months is enough to ensure United fight for 4th. I've said Ole shouldn't be sacked now, but if he falls 10 points off 4th then yes, it should be considered. How on Earth is any of this controversial?

That's me, for my own sanity take me away from this absolute insane group of fans and threadban me please: @Carolina Red @Adzzz @Akshay
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Not enough to fight for 5th? get to absolute feck.

I'm done here, the debate is absolute nonsense, of course 150m of signings and 13 months is enough to ensure United fight for 4th. I've said Ole shouldn't be sacked now, but if he falls 10 points off 4th then yes, it should be considered. How on Earth is any of this controversial?
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We’re winning the fight for fifth right now! ;)
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
haha, 4th man 4th. Damn it.

But yeah, the point was obvious 150m quid and 13 months with this group should be enough to fight for 4th. If we fall way off, he's doing an absolutely appalling job, no ifs buts or maybes.
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I don’t really agree that he’s doing an appaling job, and we are fighting for fourth as it stands.
I think our problem is in the midfield as you pointed out, but I do think that if he’d bought say Ziyech and a centre mid instead of Maguire and AWB we’d still be struggling, just for a different reason.
I think we really need a midfielder this window, if we don’t get one he might as well go because he won’t be able to compete with what he has available to him, and we might as well see if someone else can.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Young and Smalling helped us to 2nd not long ago. Andreas and Lingard will lead us to 5th or 6th, big difference.

If we were doing better, with say:

AWB, Smalling, Lindelöf, Shaw

McTom Fred (Pogba)
Ziyech (or any good #10)

James Martial Rashford​

Yes the criticisms would be different. Our Summer was shite, keep believing it wasn't, but this season shows it was, you said yourself that we have zero creativity when Pogba aint playing, and yet wasn't Ziyech available for very little money in the Summer?

Would we not have been better balanced with the side above?
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Young is a 34 year old converted winger who played second fiddle to another converted winger. But you include him as a player who not so long ago helped us to second but not Lingard who played more games than either of them? You can't have it both ways. You can literally change those names over and it wouldn't read any differently.

And what if it was Rashford or Martial and not Pogba that got a long term Injury? If Pogba was fit would Ziyech have been seen as a waste of money that we should have spent on reinforcements up front? We are light all over the pitch, irrespective of who we brought in, the risk was still going to be there.
 
ivaldo said:
And what if it was Rashford or Martial and not Pogba that got a long term Injury? If Pogba was fit would Ziyech have been seen as a waste of money that we should have spent on reinforcements up front? We are light all over the pitch, irrespective of who we brought in, the risk was still going to be there.
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I really need this threadban.

If Martial got injured than forward Ziyech would have still been a good purchase ffs, James goes left, Ziyech right, Rashford centre etc. If Rashford got injured, same again, James goes left, Ziyech right.

Ziyech gives us options all across the front 4, it would have been a cracking and smart singing regardless but you're not a stupid lad ivaldo so you know this but just don't want to admit our Summer was stupid so will argue against anything. It's like debating with a brick wall.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I really need this threadban.

If Martial got injured than forward Ziyech would have still been a good purchase ffs, James goes left, Ziyech right, Rashford centre etc. If Rashford got injured, same again, James goes left, Ziyech right.

Ziyech gives us options all across the front 4, it would have been a cracking and smart singing regardless but you're not a stupid lad ivaldo so you know this but just don't want to admit our Summer was stupid so will argue against anything. It's like debating with a brick wall.
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Brilliant! Rashford CF. That's worked fantastically well this season hasn't it? We are absolutely fecking woeful without a proper centre forward to link up play. You saw this. You witnessed how we struggled without one only a few months ago. I'm not being facetious here. You're offering up hypotheticals with the help of retrospect because you know where our injuries have occurred. No manager, regardless of how experienced they are or how much they've won can predict that.

It's really not like that. I've said several times I wouldn't be overly bothered if Ole was sacked and someone like Poch brought in. I just know not a lot would change. You're bringing up players like Young and justifying his inclusion because he helped us to second place, and then in the very next sentence you're saying Lingard and Mata will take us to 6th, despite being part of that very same team as Young. He couldn't replace them all in one window. He was going to be stuck with one or the other but you refuse to acknowledge this very obvious flaw in your logic.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
My God man.

Rashford played CF during Ole’s great best run of United results but that aint the point. An extra quality body in the front 4 was desperately needed.
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Rashford playing centre forward during our worst run of this season, and our record with Martial in and out of the side, would make for a better comparable than our results during the honeymoon period of a new manager in a different season, no?

A new CB was desperately needed, as was a CM, a RB, a RW. You know this. You know the importance of signing a player in each of those positions changes enormously depending on injuries to key areas. You know this RAB, we've been over the other scenarios and we fecked if we do and we fecked if we don't.

Again, I'm not some Ole acolyte, but can we at least be fair with our criticisms? When we are pretending we'd be fine with Young playing because he was part of a team that finished 2nd two years ago but refusing to acknowledge Lingard and Mata were part of that same team and therefore holding them to a different standard. When we are saying fans are happy with Andreas being used over Garner because he brings the average age of the team down. When we are using examples from last year's when newer, more relevant examples would serve better, you've got to start to ask yourself: am I being fair here?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I don't think any manager should look past the short term, it's too important these days and too costly.

I think standards, and feck me I'm talking low ones, like challenging for top 4 must be maintained even during periods of rebuilding (note: challenging, not "making"). If a manager isn't capable of challenging for top 4 and rebuilding, he's got absolutely no right to be here.

You say it should be beneficial long term but what is that based on? A level of trust and blind faith? Because as I said previously, I can absolutely see Longstaff and Rice being two future signings, maybe even Grealish and I can't see that being "beneficial" at all with regards to catching Liverpool, City and Chelsea who will be buying "big" players again after their ban. I can absolutely see us on the evidence so far cementing our place as a 5th placed team by gutting the squad and bringing in "honest lads". Can you not see that in May 2021 that's how our side might look?

DDG
AWB Lindelöf Maguire Williams

Rice Longstaff
Grealish
James/Greenwood Rashford
Martial​

I can, I think that's absolutely the way we are going and I think it's a terrifying future ahead for any United fan if we continue down this route. Most terrifying of all is that fans like wummy probably cum in their pants looking at the line up above.
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I said it should be beneficial IF we get the signings right and the young players develop well. There's no guarantees, the same as under any other manager.

No that team wouldn't be anywhere near good enough.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I'm wrong about an actual fact? That's a new one :lol:

Is our squad the 2nd most expensive in the league or is it not?
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Expensive had nothing to do with value and how good players realy are. If you buy 10 players for 100m each (Their value is maybe 15m each), from let say Denmark, do you actully mean you should be fighting for 1 place? Or is it your fault that you rate them litttle bit to much? A player who costs 1m£ can be better for your team then one cost 500m£. If we talk about our transfer dealing last decade, they have been catastrofic. And it didn’t matter if manager was Moyes or Mourinho.

Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Playing the dumb card again? How else do you judge a manager if not from their past achievements in the leagues they have managed? It appears your only defence for Ole being better than them is that he's currently 5th, with the 2nd most expensive squad in the league. Is Brendon Rodgers a better manager than Pep Guardiola then in your eyes because he's currently above him? If Ole finishes the season in 6th and above Everton, is he suddenly better than Ancelotti?
The very idea that being 5th with the 2nd most expensive squad somehow makes Ole a better manager than say "Eddie Howe" is one of the dumbest things I've read.

You asked which manager's are better than Ole, I gave you a massive list and the only way to judge managers is on how they have fared in the best leagues they have managed in.

All of these managers you're arguing about including Ole have managed in the Championship and done a miles better job than Ole did there.

So once again, I'll ask you to provide me with information and facts on how Ole is better than any of these guys? If you can't give me any facts and actual evidence of what Ole has achieved so far in his managerial career that is better than these guys then guess what? You're wrong.
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If I get you right. You would rather want Hodgson, Howe and those you mentioned instead of Solskjaer?

Guardiola is better manager. Ofcourse. And his creditentials show that. What managers you have mentioned have done expect some promotion is clear to see. Hardly anything. I’m not taking anything from them and congratulate them for being managers but where is their medals in top flight? It is one thing winning League One and winning something in top flight. For me winning League One or Championship dosn’t give you ”status” as a great manager.

You say that you have to judge them by previous years. I agree to some point. But with your logic, does it mean that Klopp is worse than managers like vanGaal, Zidane and those who got some heavy titles behind them? You have to look lite more deeper into things. It is not black or white all the time. There is lot you got to consider.

Regulus Arcturus Black said:
He got fired in the Championship after having an entire Summer to make a PL side good enough to compete in the Championship and bounce straight back. He failed absolutely miserably.
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Have I said anything else? He got fired because of bad results. But you are putting to much weight on him without any consideration of everything sorrounding that club. And just because you get one transfer window doesn’t mean you can fix all problems.
 
ivaldo said:
Again, I'm not some Ole acolyte, but can we at least be fair with our criticisms? When we are pretending we'd be fine with Young playing because he was part of a team that finished 2nd two years ago but refusing to acknowledge Lingard and Mata were part of that same team and therefore holding them to a different standard. When we are saying fans are happy with Andreas being used over Garner because he brings the average age of the team down.
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Garner is nowhere near the first team, Andreas is used over Mata and Lingard.

And yes, when you sell your main goalscorer and bring in a non goal scoring right winger, I’d argue a 10 who scores and creates is way more important than replacing Ashley Young with AWB or Smalling with Maguire.

A big part of successful management is prioritizing, and we did a terrible job of it however you dress it up. You freely admit we have zero creativity besides Pogba yet think it was smart to spunk pretty much the entire budget on a CB and RB, neither of whom have done much to improve our defensive record. Prioritizing keeps managers in jobs, so in that sense it’s vital for longevity.
 
I think my main issue with Ole is his game management. We all know he can set up a team to counter attack well against teams that are going to have more possession than us. It’s when that isn’t working, against Arsenal for example, that he doesn’t show enough for me. He seems reluctant to move away from his pre-match plan and rarely makes more than one substitution before the 80th minute.

In my opinion the ability of a manager is measured in how he can adapt to changes in a game and there has been occasions this season where we’ve been leading and been too slow to react to growing pressure from the opposition. Some of that is down to not having leaders on the pitch who know how to kill a game but it’s also up to the manager to change the shape of the team to neutralise their biggest threats or stop them playing their game.

He’s still a relatively inexperienced manager though so some of this could come with time but we can’t really afford to spend 2-3 more seasons like this or else we’ll start to lose our appeal to some of the players we’ll want to bring in.

I think he’d benefit greatly from having more experienced technical coaches along side him as neither Carrick or McKenna have had previous experience as a first team coach.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Garner is nowhere near the first team, Andreas is used over Mata and Lingard.

And yes, when you sell your main goalscorer and bring in a non goal scoring right winger, I’d argue a 10 who scores and creates is way more important than replacing Ashley Young with AWB or Smalling with Maguire.

A big part of successful management is prioritizing, and we did a terrible job of it however you dress it up. You freely admit we have zero creativity besides Pogba yet think it was smart to spunk pretty much the entire budget on a CB and RB, neither of whom have done much to improve our defensive record. Prioritizing keeps managers in jobs, so in that sense it’s vital for longevity.
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:confused: You were only a post or two ago using them as examples of players who shouldn't be anywhere near the first team. Andreas is better and is keeping them out. Doesn't make him the answer or anything, but I don't believe anyone thinks he is. I'll assume you were being facetious when you say people are happy when he plays because he brings the average age down.

And in turn Rashford has become our main source of goals. I doubt you'd be saying that after watching Smalling punt the ball into touch every time we were under pressure. People are criticizing Maguire's ability on the ball FFS, imagine how many of the counter attacks we've scored from would never start because Smalling had found a new postcode with his long ball.

Imagine spunking all that money on a creative player when the ball would never reach him? Imagine watching Young mugged week in week out as we are relying on a 34 year old to play every game in the season. We are in this position because Pogba got injured. Pure and simple. If Young got injured instead and we were playing Jones at RB, until he got injured, so we play James at RB, then you'd be asking why we spunked our money on creative players when we have Pogba. It's all relative mate. We can say he hasn't prioritized properly with the benefit of hindsight. Pogba stays fit and someone else gets a long term injury and this problem goes away. If we had a deep squad and he was adding players in stacked areas while neglecting other positions then you'd have a point. But we have a real dearth in quality all over, so there was always a risk this could happen.
 
I am happy while being unhappy with the state of our club. I think we could sneak 4th place but with our midfield destroyed by injury it is going to take a huge effort. But I didn't expect us to be top 2 this season. I am happy with the players that have left and my wish is that more players were brought in sooner. I can't understand the impatience and anger of some fans, the squad really needed a big overhaul and this year was always going to be about rebuilding the club. I did think we would see more from the likes of garner and Gomes, and I wish they would buy another midfielder in January, but I don't buy all the criticism of Ole. I think he has brought on a lot of the younger players and it seems like they really respond to him. I wish the over the top pessimism would stop.
 
G_and_T said:
I am happy while being unhappy with the state of our club. I think we could sneak 4th place but with our midfield destroyed by injury it is going to take a huge effort. But I didn't expect us to be top 2 this season. I am happy with the players that have left and my wish is that more players were brought in sooner. I can't understand the impatience and anger of some fans, the squad really needed a big overhaul and this year was always going to be about rebuilding the club. I did think we would see more from the likes of garner and Gomes, and I wish they would buy another midfielder in January, but I don't buy all the criticism of Ole. I think he has brought on a lot of the younger players and it seems like they really respond to him. I wish the over the top pessimism would stop.
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You do know we can continue this overhaul project with a proven top manager? Do people realise this?

The project doesn't and shouldn't stop with Ole.

And the "over the top pessimism" isn't over the top when the league win-rate for one of the biggest clubs in the World's isn't an absolutely miserable and shocking 38%.
 
Everyone says this season was always going to be a write off but pretty much no one did before it started. I'm not sure how anyone thinks a big club should go into a season with this mindset, especially one of our stature.
 
Rista said:
Everyone says this season was always going to be a write off but pretty much no one did before it started. I'm not sure how anyone thinks a big club should go into a season with this mindset, especially one of our stature.
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It should never have been a write off and I dont see how anyone can claim that it is. We are still in all of the cups and fighting for 4th. Every game we play is important and means something. How exactly does that constitute a write off?

We went into the season with great hope but also knowing that injuries to certain players was going to really hurt us because the squad is thin.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
You do know we can continue this overhaul project with a proven top manager? Do people realise this?

The project doesn't and shouldn't stop with Ole.

And the "over the top pessimism" isn't over the top when the league win-rate for one of the biggest clubs in the World's isn't an absolutely miserable and shocking 38%.
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I do understand. However we had JM and LVG two very experienced coaches who brought in a lot of sub par players. JM was poisonous to the players. So I think the club don't want another high profile manager for the sake of it.
Also when you talk about 'the biggest club' you are referring to the economic status and history of the club, not the squad we have today. Today we are in this position with young players and a young manager. We aren't the team of 1999 or 2009 but there are things to be optimistic about. Sure as I mentioned in my previous post I wish things were happening faster, but all the doom and gloom is unrealistic for a young squad that is sitting in 5th position in the PL. If it were any other club people would be praising them... But people can't separate MU of old with MU today, and no one is going to rebuild a club by crying about what they used to be.
 
Rista said:
Everyone says this season was always going to be a write off but pretty much no one did before it started. I'm not sure how anyone thinks a big club should go into a season with this mindset, especially one of our stature.
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Nah that isn't true. I think most expected nothing from this season, expectations were rock bottom. That's as close as a write off as you can get before a season starts for a club like Man Utd. Which is disgraceful really. We might be 5th (god knows how), but I don't think anyone could suggest we're even meeting expectations, it's been awful.
 
Judas said:
Nah that isn't true. I think most expected nothing from this season, expectations were rock bottom. That's as close as a write off as you can get before a season starts for a club like Man Utd. Which is disgraceful really. We might be 5th (god knows how), but I don't think anyone could suggest we're even meeting expectations, it's been awful.
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It was a writeoff the second PP was injured. With him healthy, there was some minuscule chance we could have been interesting to watch.
The thing that does not compute is that with this season being unimportant, why do we not try to play a more advanced type of football? Why not try to coach the team into playing possession with intention, giving them experience on how to break down a low block defence?
 
I don’t like him but reaching the 6th place at the end of the season would be the maximum you can do with this team
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
You do know we can continue this overhaul project with a proven top manager? Do people realise this?

The project doesn't and shouldn't stop with Ole.

And the "over the top pessimism" isn't over the top when the league win-rate for one of the biggest clubs in the World's isn't an absolutely miserable and shocking 38%.
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Well apparently it doesn't matter who is the manager because the club is a mess. Whether it's Ole, Guardiola or Poch.
 
Fosu-Mens said:
It was a writeoff the second PP was injured. With him healthy, there was some minuscule chance we could have been interesting to watch.
The thing that does not compute is that with this season being unimportant, why do we not try to play a more advanced type of football? Why not try to coach the team into playing possession with intention, giving them experience on how to break down a low block defence?
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I was really hoping to see us to have a style, identity, brand of football and play it this season, I expected us to look good one week terrible the next, but we're doing all that with just this tactic-less nothing football.

I don't know what the excuse is for us to still not see a plan or style, this was the season for it to be implemented surely.
 
Eh? Anyone Ole in is a WUM. We're the worst we've been in probably 30+ years and theres people who think we're fecking progressing.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Eh? Anyone Ole in is a WUM. We're the worst we've been in probably 30+ years and theres people who think we're fecking progressing.
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It is clear for some time now that most of Ole in are oppo fans or just people who hate United.
 
Lentwood said:
As a proud member of the “Ole in” brigade, I’m getting tired of seeing the same lazy criticisms of us/the manager gathering likes on the Caf and Twitter.

I wanted to address them all in one place, hopefully some fellow sensible supporters will be able to add their own arguments

1) “The love for Ole is all based on nostalgia and reverence for an ex-Red”

Not true. I’ve never seen a single argument from a pro-Ole supporter saying that he should remain in the job because he is an ex-player/club legend. This argument has been made up by the anti-Ole brigade, who have then proceeded to get angry at their own argument.

2) “Utd have made their worst start/worst away record/worst this/worse that”

Could. Not. Give. A. Monkeys. Anybody who expected any more from this season, with this squad and these players was always setting themselves up for a fall. Re-adjust your expectations based on reality.

3) “Ole is a failed Cardiff manager”

So what? People need to get over this idea that the success or failure of a club begins and ends with the manager.

4) “Jose Mourinho blah blah blah”

I liked Jose but with the benefit of hindsight, he had completely lost the plot in that 3rd season. Also, the man left over a year ago...let’s stop going on about it.

5) “We’re Man Utd, we should be doing X,Y....”

Means nothing. We’re currently an irrelevant club with mediocre players run by a clown and owned by shareholders looking to make a quick dollar. We’ve no divine right to win anything or sign any player because “we’re Man Utd”

6) “Ole is a poor Coach”

No evidence for this. People are obsessed with the idea of coaching but (most) of these players are 20+....you can’t make them play slicker, faster football just by “coaching”. Same way Pep can’t coach his philosophy to certain players, difference is City have been well-run for ten years so their squad needs minor tweaks every year not major surgery.
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He is demonstrably a poor coach. He hasn't improved us at all. We have got worse. Look at the League Table! I agree Glazers are only in it for the money and somehow we need to get them out.
 
Other clubs are laughing at us and begging us not to sack him. What the feck have we become?
 
dove said:
It is clear for some time now that most of Ole in are oppo fans or just people who hate United.
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I'd say 80% are noggies and 20% are sentimental fans. I cant blame them for that, but there has to come a time where you look past your personal bias and focus on whats best for the club.
 
If Ole managed in medieval times then his supporters would join the flagellants
 
Ok, I’m still Ole in.
He, as would any other manager, wanted more/better players. Woodward didn’t give him them.
Who else could he have picked tonight? Injuries and a paper thin squad - our injury record over the years has been shocking. That needs to be addressed. Again, is the weak squad really on Ole?
He is paid well by a club to say he’s happy with the squad. Jose didn’t and he ended up getting the boot. Of course he won’t throw Woodward under the bus - he’ll fight to keep his job and try to use the players he has.
Would any other manager get anything more from that group of players tonight? I honestly don’t think they could. Maybe not 0-3 down but we’d still be well beaten.
I know I’ll get some incoming for backing Ole but he isn’t the issue. Given better players I’m still sure he’d get us top 4.
 
soapythecat said:
Ok, I’m still Ole in.
He, as would any other manager, wanted more/better players. Woodward didn’t give him them.
Who else could he have picked tonight? Injuries and a paper thin squad - our injury record over the years has been shocking. That needs to be addressed. Again, is the weak squad really on Ole?
He is paid well by a club to say he’s happy with the squad. Jose didn’t and he ended up getting the boot. Of course he won’t throw Woodward under the bus - he’ll fight to keep his job and try to use the players he has.
Would any other manager get anything more from that group of players tonight? I honestly don’t think they could. Maybe not 0-3 down but we’d still be well beaten.
I know I’ll get some incoming for backing Ole but he isn’t the issue. Given better players I’m still sure he’d get us top 4.
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If you give such players to any other manager, they won't be able do anything. How do we know that?

At the same time you say, give better players to Ole and he will make us reach top 4.Give better players to any of the managers in the league right now and they are going to perform better.

I am not able to understand your point?
 
soapythecat said:
Ok, I’m still Ole in.
He, as would any other manager, wanted more/better players. Woodward didn’t give him them.
Who else could he have picked tonight? Injuries and a paper thin squad - our injury record over the years has been shocking. That needs to be addressed. Again, is the weak squad really on Ole?
He is paid well by a club to say he’s happy with the squad. Jose didn’t and he ended up getting the boot. Of course he won’t throw Woodward under the bus - he’ll fight to keep his job and try to use the players he has.
Would any other manager get anything more from that group of players tonight? I honestly don’t think they could. Maybe not 0-3 down but we’d still be well beaten.
I know I’ll get some incoming for backing Ole but he isn’t the issue. Given better players I’m still sure he’d get us top 4.
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I think it's widely accepted that one of the primary reasons Ole was appointed over a more experienced or high profile candidate was his unwillingness to criticise Woodward's performance publicly the way Jose did towards the end of his tenure. Any top manager would be screaming bloody murder about our recruitment right now. With that in mind, this particular line of attack kind of does the opposite of what you want it to do.
 
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