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The Arsenal thread | 2016-2017 season

giorno

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How come?
I can't see Ozil playing wide for Arsenal, especially in order to get the best out of Ramsey, it wouldn't make any sense to dislodge him for an inferior player.
You don't play him wide. Arsenal have the full backs to provide width. Give the 3 forwards complete freedom of movement(something they already have anyways, at least when wenger plays ramsey as the [fake]right-winger) Xhaka-elneny-ramsey is a pretty good midfield, and it would allow ramsey to play in his best position, i.e. shadow striker. Wenger's already doing that, except he asks him to start out wide and pay too much attention to the position, instead of simply letting him roam freely in the middle of the park.

Mind, why wenger does it is understandable. Why he keeps playing ramsey, too. Why he's willing to play ramsey in the midfield 2 with 4 forwards ahead is not understandable at all, it's bonkers. Personally, at this point i think it would be best for everyone if arsenal sold him. Lots of big teams would be interested and willing to pay big bucks for him, arsenal would be able to replace him with a guy who fits better with ozil and sanchez and ramsey would go to a team that will use him properly
 

Kush

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I find it sad Arsenal fans seem to think they are above domestic cup silverware and are instead happier keeping players fresh to battle for 4th.
When Wenger leaves all his hard work will be judged on trophies and sadly there's been nowhere near enough.
I think Arsenal fans would be more than happy with any silverware be it League Cup or FA Cup but Wenger hasn't played his best side in League Cup for quite some time, he uses it to give game time to his fringe and youth players. I do think the lineup vs Saints was weak, no reason why he couldn't have started Xhaka or Oxlade Chamberlain. Saints are a quality side and a handful for any team in the league, with better XI or even better subs they could be in for a shot to win early silverware in February which can act as a catalyst and propel them over the line.

They are only 3pts off the top and are now doing things which they weren't doing in the past, playing poor but still getting results. I could've never seen Arsenal drawing level at OT of all places after playing so poorly few years back but with smart subs they salvaged a point and they've been doing that all season. I'm still skeptical of their chances because they don't possess a world class striker like City do in Aguero or Chelsea in Costa which could make a difference in tight games, so it'll be interesting to see how they manage the run in.
 

DanClancy

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Late winners are generally the result of non-stop work all game. United in Fergies heyday were getting late winners all the time. They weren't jammy, they were just consistently good and never gave up.
Chelsea in 2006/07 and City last season scored a lot of late winners earlier on in the season but they soon dried up as they weren't well playing well. If a team is playing well then late winners will continue to come.
 

Cascarino

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You don't play him wide. Arsenal have the full backs to provide width. Give the 3 forwards complete freedom of movement(something they already have anyways, at least when wenger plays ramsey as the [fake]right-winger) Xhaka-elneny-ramsey is a pretty good midfield, and it would allow ramsey to play in his best position, i.e. shadow striker. Wenger's already doing that, except he asks him to start out wide and pay too much attention to the position, instead of simply letting him roam freely in the middle of the park.

Mind, why wenger does it is understandable. Why he keeps playing ramsey, too. Why he's willing to play ramsey in the midfield 2 with 4 forwards ahead is not understandable at all, it's bonkers. Personally, at this point i think it would be best for everyone if arsenal sold him. Lots of big teams would be interested and willing to pay big bucks for him, arsenal would be able to replace him with a guy who fits better with ozil and sanchez and ramsey would go to a team that will use him properly
I agree with your second paragraph but not your first. One of the big reasons is if Ramsey is playing in the shadow striker role then him and Ozil are going to be fighting it out in a very congested space. I think the reason that Wenger asks him to start out wide is also to provide some level of insurance to the RB (atm Jenkinson usually Bellerin) and without a consistent RW to track back, I think the fullback could be easily exposed. Even though Ramsey is given some freedom in the RW position, he still does a fair amount of defensive work on the right flank. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think Arsenal could do a free roaming front three with no set wingers, and remain defensively steadfast.

I definitely agree with the second paragraph, I can't ever see Ramsey being at his best at Arsenal and I think they could do with someone more suited to the side.
 

WackyWengerWorld

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Obviously I didn't say or imply that it was financially worth more... nor that club chairman would prefer it.

My point, to be absolutely crystal, is that as money is spread more evenly throughout the league, and it continues to be more and more competitive at every level, the prestige of every trophy being competed for goes up.

van Gaal's winning of the FA Cup was of course not enough to keep him in contract at this mighty giant of a club, it came at the end of 2 seasons of drab football and underachievement and it was clear his methods had taken the team as far as they were going to. But that fecking trophy still meant a lot to us as fans and to the club itself - check Woodward's beaming face at the presentation, check the scenes of joy both on the pitch and off when Martial stole us the win.

If you asked any Utd fan whether they'd rather erase from history that trophy victory, or BOTH of our last ventures into the CL, the answer would be obvious.

My point is that this will only increase and the worth (or prestige) of both the domestic Cups will rise as more and more good teams are competing for them.

A trophy that has better teams competing for it will rise in how much it means to said teams - i.e a hotly contested league title 'means more' than one that is won in a one horse race league.

Likewise, the more teams competing at a more similar level, means LESS SILVERWARE to go around, so the silverware available in the domestic cups will, I predict, continue to rise in it's worth to the fans.

I don't mean this as a slur to you, I like Arsenal as far as rival clubs go, and I like Wenger (and on topic, was actually really happy for him when you won the first of your recent FA Cups) but do remember that there is a culture at Arsenal of 'Top 4 being a trophy', and while the CL is great and the big clubs should be finishing in the Top 4, it isn't actually a real trophy, a real 'honour' to add to your trophy haul.

It won't be remembered in history, whereas trophy wins will. Especially trophies that are more hotly contested for.

A Man Utd v Liverpool League Cup final at Wembley would be fecking bouncing - and I tell you right now, both managers would be literally desperate to win that trophy!
Fans might prefer a trophy to a higher league finish but board's don't. United can afford to an extent not to get CL football because of their commercial strength. United themselves might be doing better in the league if they rested players in the cup competitions. Would your fans be happier if you were 4th now but out of the league cup?

Arsenal for the first 10 years of paying off our stadium loan required 8 years of in order to survive while still breaking even or being profitable in the transfer market. Leeds needed guaranteed CL money to guarantee their loans and went under when they couldn't guarantee it. Brendan Rodgers considered qualifying for the CL as a trophy. Martin O'Neil rested players at Villa in the Europa when he was trying to qualify for the CL, as have Spurs/Liverpool. Spurs/Liverpool/Everton have been desperate to make the CL and it's seen as a big success when they do. Were Liverpool happier with their last season with Daglish where they went to the FA Cup final and won the league cup or the season they had a title challenge and finished 2nd? I'd say probably the latter.

So while it is seen as 'lack of ambition' to focus on top 4 and not necessarily have a title challenge it's unfortunately essential for a club to have a healthy future and ultimately finishing above your rivals in the league and having more league wins is great for fans even if you don't win the thing.

The PL after the CL is also the top prize. If we do manage to get 3 points at the weekend and actually do the unimaginable and win the PL (I don't think we have the players for it), resting players will be considered wise. For me I'd rest players in the CL to but the further you go in the comp, the more money it brings in so that won't happen. We've seen how well Liverpool and Leicester did when they only had to play once a week. Now Chelsea have that luxury to and are benefiting from it.

Retrospectively LVG's tenure maybe a bit better than given credit for. He inherited an old squad with all the top players past their prime and managed 4th/5th having finished however low Moyes finished and won the FA Cup. Mourinho probably won't out do that this year either and he's spent more money. He will probably win the league cup. The Europa now has more significance beause of the CL entry.
 

giorno

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I agree with your second paragraph but not your first. One of the big reasons is if Ramsey is playing in the shadow striker role then him and Ozil are going to be fighting it out in a very congested space.
Not when you're playing ozil, sanchez and walcott up top. Ozil and sanchez are smart players who know to create space for their teammates, and walcott's mobile enough not to clog it up. Ozil doesn't play centrally, he plays wherever he wants. He doesn't need his teammates to leave the hole open all the time for him

I think the reason that Wenger asks him to start out wide is also to provide some level of insurance to the RB (atm Jenkinson usually Bellerin) and without a consistent RW to track back, I think the fullback could be easily exposed. Even though Ramsey is given some freedom in the RW position, he still does a fair amount of defensive work on the right flank. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think Arsenal could do a free roaming front three with no set wingers, and remain defensively steadfast.
It's not the front three, it's the midfielders who don't provide enough cover. Which is why i said I understand why wenger playz ramsey there instead of in the middle. Ramsey needs specific defensive duties, otherwise he is far too attracted by the ball, and playing him centrally would force ozil/walcott -two players who are particularly good at either tracking back or pressing- to give help on the flank. If instead of ramsey they had, say lampard, this wouldn't be an issue. It's a personnel problem. With that said, i do believe the added offensive threat and contribution ramsey could provide would offset the defensive problems against the majority of arsenal's opponents. It's just against the better teams that this would be a real issue. And wenger doesn't seem to care either way given he's played ramsey in a midfield 2 with iwobi-ozil-sanchez-giroud against freaking PSG
 

SwansonsTache

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I try to rationalize that Arsenal winning the league wouldn't be that bad, that it surely would be preferably ahead of City and Pool

..and then their fans appear.
 

sinicalypse

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I try to rationalize that Arsenal winning the league wouldn't be that bad, that it surely would be preferably ahead of City and Pool

..and then their fans appear.
One thing that we can all agree on is "hey at least we're not scousers!" (no matter how "endearing" good ol Harry Enfield might have made them seem!)
 

sinicalypse

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It's not the front three, it's the midfielders who don't provide enough cover. Which is why i said I understand why wenger playz ramsey there instead of in the middle. Ramsey needs specific defensive duties, otherwise he is far too attracted by the ball, and playing him centrally would force ozil/walcott -two players who are particularly good at either tracking back or pressing- to give help on the flank. If instead of ramsey they had, say lampard, this wouldn't be an issue. It's a personnel problem. With that said, i do believe the added offensive threat and contribution ramsey could provide would offset the defensive problems against the majority of arsenal's opponents. It's just against the better teams that this would be a real issue. And wenger doesn't seem to care either way given he's played ramsey in a midfield 2 with iwobi-ozil-sanchez-giroud against freaking PSG
I agree with what you said about Ramsey being "far too attracted by the ball" -- however I'd phrase it as "Ramsey went Hollywood after he scored a bunch of goals [mostly early] in the 13-14 season." Going into 13-14 I was whinging about how Arsenal was "too cutesy [with passes] in/around the box" and how they needed to simply have someone "step up and kick the [expletive] ball at the net; preferably very hard!" and then, as if my prayers were answered, Ramsey showed up and did just that. I remember many of his early-mid 13-14 goals naturally occurring within the flow of the game; it would often work out that as he came forward from his CM position the ball would swing over to him and he'd get great chances to literally just step up and blast the ball towards the net. It was exactly what Arsenal needed at the time!

But then he cooled down towards the end of 13-14, and his goal-lust was re-awakened during the 2014 FA Cup Final Extra Time, where in the 2nd half of ET Ramsey was desperately trying to uncork any shot that he could if he had even a half-decent look ~15-30ft from the goal-- almost as if to say to his teammates "lads, we need to score a goal to win this game! don't let this go to penalties!" Of course, most people don't remember Ramsey forcing 3-5 long and basically wildly-desperate shots at the goal during ET because they only remember his last one-- the one that went in! That goal singlehandedly reinvigorated his goal lust to the extent that when he started out the 14-15 season [playing on the wing] he was basically out there looking to poach goals and he essentially became a tap-in-merchant that needed a lucky break/bounce/rebound/[something] to set him up with a goal. It was pretty sad to see a guy who Wenger proudly called "The Complete Midfielder" in 13-14 turn into a rather bang average (if even that good) goal poaching winger, especially when you came off of a [13-14] season where Ramsey scored all of those goals as a function of being a CM who would creep up from his deeper positions and occasionally make opponents pay for letting Arsenal have too much fluidity of ball movement in/around their box.

Fortunately, nowadays I see more of a hybrid of "Complete Midfielder Ramsey" and "Hollywood Winger Ramsey" out there, which gives me hope that Wenger might realize that he can't really "get away with" playing with 2 holding mids in his midfield against solid-or-better opponents. He's essentially got 3 DMs in Coquelin/El-Neny/Xhaka, and ideally I think you have to pick one of those 3 and then pair them up with a more "positive" or "offensively capable" CM such as Cazorla, Ramsey, or hell even the Ghost of Jack Wilshere (who could technically "do a job" for Arsenal right about now, but who am I kidding; Wilshere would be out til February/March by now if he stayed at Arsenal this year) -- Otherwise, if you try to put two holding mids out there against a defensively minded manager/team, say, Jose Mourinho at Manchester United; I reckon just about everyone here saw ManUtd go out and absolutely wreck Arsenal to such an extent that I believe that the 1-1 @ Old Trafford Arsenal performance was the worst I've ever seen; even worse than 1-5 @ Anfield and 0-6 @ Chelsea It was that bad, I mean, David De Gea finished the game with 0 saves! What more can I say?

Anyways, as I look up at a wall of text here I just want to make sure I come back to where I started off in replying to your message; right now Arsenal absolutely needs Ramsey in the midfield next to one of their 3 DMs; otherwise you run the risk of having a midfield pairing that can't consistently bring the ball up from the backs across the half-line and into the opponent's half, let alone towards/into the opponent's box. If you can't do that it doesn't matter if you have a 40mil+ rated #10 in Ozil or a $2.50 rated #10 in "that loudmouth from the pub" -- if your midfielders can't consistently get the ball up into positive/forward positions in the opponent's half then you're going to have games where you realize circa 60' "wow, Theo Walcott is actually playing today!?" When your midfield can't consistently bring the ball forward, your attackers often freak out when they actually get a rare chance to do something, thinking something like "holy crap I have to do something brilliant here otherwise i might not get another decent chance for another 5-15 minutes!" That often compels your attackers to try "Hollywood" stuff, aka hoofing a "Home Run Ball" into the box praying for a brilliant volley or whatever you call the football equivalent of a one-timer in hockey, because since they can't play proper offensively-minded positive football they figure they might as well try to play some superhero football and that always results in quick tidy turnovers to your opponents. Generally, I'd have to say that having a non-dynamic 2x-holding-midfield basically puts the whole Arsenal team out of whack...

...and don't forget that even though today's game ended up 5-1 for Arsenal, the game was "1-Nil to the Arsenal" for a good ~20-25mins/+ into a second half where WHU was bossing possession and consistently getting the ball in/around Arsenal's box to such an extent that it felt like it wasn't a matter of if West Ham equalized, it was a matter of when West Ham equalized (especially with the commentators on NBCSN just gushing and generally oozing with praise for England's Brave Andy Carroll) and it honestly felt like Arsenal was going to concede that equalizer and then have to dig in and fight to hold on to even 1 point... Fortunately Alexis Sanchez stepped up out of nowhere with 2 absolutely class clinical goals at the most important juncture for Arsenal, which quickly turned the game around from "snatching [draw/defeat] from the jaws of victory" to "Wow, Bilic isn't going to survive past January, is he?" =D

Lord knows I've said enough i this epic post, but one other thing I have to say about 16-17 Arsenal is that this side definitely has more "fight" in them than what i've seen over the last 3 seasons. Obviously their relative/down-tick in form over the last ~4-6 weeks can be traced back to the Cazorla injury, because once that happened you end up having to rely on Aaron Ramsey at CM. On paper that's all fine and good, but if you play him there too consistently you know that you're due for another 4-6 week hammy within ~2-3 months of regular usage, so Arsene has been surprisingly proactive in seemingly rotating his players this year, which means that he's had games with a Coquelin/El-Neny midfield and call it a hunch all of the ManUtd fans here loved that midfield pairing for Arsenal, which is all the more reason they gotta sort out CM right now because holy cow I'm seriously ready to type "Where's Jack Wilshere when you need him?"

(please forgive me for "going for it" with this generally too-long post. I promise I'll be way more concise and "housebroken" in the immediate future; I just have some "fire and passion for the cannon" so obviously I'm going to want to go TLDR about Arsenal on the best ManUtd/Football forum on the internet!)
 
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GifLord

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Lucky today with that offside for the 5th.

Jammy cnuts.
I mean you did have a fair share of luck in the past couple of weeks/months

let me refresh your memory

Vs Southampton - 90th min pen which wasnt

Vs Burnley - 93rd min goal suspicion of handball?

Vs Middlesbrough - Incredibly lucky to even get a point

Vs Spurs - another suspicious goal

Vs Man Utd - Valencia penalty incident

Vs Bournemouth - Monreal handball, Koscielny push/El Neny handball in the same action, Sanchez dirty tackle from behind
https://streamable.com/hc55
https://gfycat.com/EasyOptimalLark

...
 

goons

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Giflord yeah let's quote all the descions that went our way and just forget about the descions that didn't.

Also lets pretend last season and others never happend.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/f...should-be-champions-and-leicester-runners-up/

Also I'm not sure if you're not aware of it but if you would ask about any neutral supporter what team have been favored over the years I'm very sure literally everyone would say "Manchester fecking United".

Oh well :)
 

John_Jensen

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I mean you did have a fair share of luck in the past couple of weeks/months

let me refresh your memory

Vs Southampton - 90th min pen which wasnt


Vs Burnley - 93rd min goal suspicion of handball?


Vs Middlesbrough - Incredibly lucky to even get a point

Vs Spurs - another suspicious goal


Vs Man Utd - Valencia penalty incident


Vs Bournemouth - Monreal handball, Koscielny push/El Neny handball in the same action, Sanchez dirty tackle from behind



...

The free kick from which Southampton scored their goal in our 2-1 win.


Darmian should be off at 0-0 for 2nd yellow


Wimmer OG decision correct - every ref in the country

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...al-for-arsenal-was-correctly-allowed-to-stan/

Koscielny 'handball' goal was correct decision.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...koscielnys-winning-goal-was-correctly-awarded

"Valencia Dive Incident"


Bournemouth dive for penalty

 
Last edited:

GifLord

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The free kick from which Southampton scored their goal in our 2-1 win.


Darmian should be off at 0-0 for 2nd yellow


Wimmer OG decision correct - every ref in the country

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...al-for-arsenal-was-correctly-allowed-to-stan/

Koscielny 'handball' goal was correct decision.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...koscielnys-winning-goal-was-correctly-awarded

"Valencia Dive Incident"


Bournemouth dive for penalty


Even without the Bournemouth dive pen that was awarded they should have at least had 2 pens or did u ignore this vid

The Darmian second yellow shouldn't even have been a second !! Since one of your players dived and Darmian got a yellow as a result of that. Also if Sanchez got the straight red vs Bournemouth he wouldnt have played against WHU - where he played a large part . As for the rest they're still debatable
 

John_Jensen

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Even without the Bournemouth dive pen that was awarded they should have at least had 2 pens or did u ignore this vid

The Darmian second yellow shouldn't even have been a second !! Since one of your players dived and Darmian got a yellow as a result of that. Also if Sanchez got the straight red vs Bournemouth he wouldnt have played against WHU - where he played a large part . As for the rest they're still debatable

So Sanchez should have gotten a red against Bournemouth, that's true and that's all you've got. Your narrative is weak and selective.
 

WackyWengerWorld

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I mean you did have a fair share of luck in the past couple of weeks/months

let me refresh your memory

Vs Southampton - 90th min pen which wasnt

Vs Burnley - 93rd min goal suspicion of handball?

Vs Middlesbrough - Incredibly lucky to even get a point

Vs Spurs - another suspicious goal

Vs Man Utd - Valencia penalty incident

Vs Bournemouth - Monreal handball, Koscielny push/El Neny handball in the same action, Sanchez dirty tackle from behind
https://streamable.com/hc55
https://gfycat.com/EasyOptimalLark

...
Burnley and Bounemouth handballs were unintentional, so technically that's a goal and no pen, even if it hit the hand, it doesn't matter. Monreal did impede/obstruct Valencia but Valencia clearly kicks and dives to, could of been a soft pen or a yellow for Valencia. Also are you claiming there was a rule broken with that epic Spurs OG?

The thing is you can highlight decisions that go your way but it's an unfair comparison without also comparing to the ones that go against you. We've had plenty of penalty calls and freekick calls not go our way to, why haven't you dug those out? Because they don't suit your agenda.
 

RyRoc

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I mean you did have a fair share of luck in the past couple of weeks/months

let me refresh your memory

Vs Southampton - 90th min pen which wasnt

Vs Burnley - 93rd min goal suspicion of handball?

Vs Middlesbrough - Incredibly lucky to even get a point

Vs Spurs - another suspicious goal

Vs Man Utd - Valencia penalty incident

Vs Bournemouth - Monreal handball, Koscielny push/El Neny handball in the same action, Sanchez dirty tackle from behind
https://streamable.com/hc55
https://gfycat.com/EasyOptimalLark

...
What an extremely simple way of looking at things but to each their own.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Only Arsenal fans will be denying that they've been massively favoured this season, intentionally or unintentionally.
At least 8 points from the refs this season.
 

WackyWengerWorld

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Only Arsenal fans will be denying that they've been massively favoured this season, intentionally or unintentionally.
At least 8 points from the refs this season.
As oppossed to people who haven't actually watched the incidents that went against Arsenal or ignore them to pretend 'we're unlucky this season, conspiracy etc'
 

Krovv

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Only Arsenal fans will be denying that they've been massively favoured this season, intentionally or unintentionally.
At least 8 points from the refs this season.
Really surprised to see your post join the ranks of bad posts in this thread. I mean come on man. You'd at least want to wait for the end of the season to make these comments. There's no such thing as luck over a 38-game season. If you feel Arsenal have been favoured so far, you'll see decisions going against us eventually. We see this with every club over the course of the season.
 

Krovv

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United on Arsenal fans is a bit like the scouse with their made up mates. Very little evidence.
Even their "evidence" is suspect at best. I just saw the Valencia penalty incident GifLord posted. Pretty clear that it's a dive. Valencia could've stayed on his feet and scored - Monreal had lost his balance anyway. But conspiracy theories are easy to get behind so why not?
 

David Court

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Trying to prove any team has been unlucky or lucky over the course of a number of games is an exercise in futility.
 

John_Jensen

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u mentioned the Darmian second yellow
Yes, exactly. Like you cherry picked incidents from games that went Arsenals way and ignored the ones that went against them. As well as ignoring the referees who said both 'dubious' goals were legit.
 

cesc's_mullet

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United on Arsenal fans is a bit like the scouse with their made up mates. Very little evidence.
Phantom mates, conspiracy theories about the league being bent, ref bias, dominating 'chances created' but being so damn unlucky all the time...

Is this some sort of parallel universe where the Caf has become RAWK?