If Conte wanted to play 3 at the back there would be an uproar. Already happened when he was rumored to be interested in United job because people saw him as a 3-5-2 manager. A few weeks later Ole played 3 at the back and nothing was happening. The double standards is unreal.
The Athletic: "Man Utd coaches trying Jadon Sancho as RWB"
- Thread starter sullydnl
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I don't think he's done it to "save his skin." He's done it because he thinks it will get better results in those games. Whether it will or not will probably take a few games to assess, if he persists with it of course.
Mate, you know you're in trouble with your line of reasoning when one of the arguments is "an enormous amount of luck". There is no such thing, over a three year period.
And all I'm arguing here is that he may not be absolutely, uniquely and totally incompetent. Ie, I'm just pointing out there's no need for these extravagant exaggerations. I'm not saying he should be kept on at this stage.
And Conte wasn't part of Sancho's purchase. You could easily rationalize the idea that he is an unwanted issue for a manager that is appointed in the middle of the season. In a way, one could compare it to Lukaku not being a fit for Ole, as far as I can remember almost no one complained about it.
There's nothing wrong with trying Sancho in this role for certain games (he'd be more an RM than an RWB) but it doesn't say much for Wan-Bissaka. For the money we paid he should be able to attack as well as defend.
But its the truth. Take the PSG game which was crucial for Ole to get the job on a permanent basis. If an 80 year old Buffon hasn't dropped the ball then Ole's biggest night in Europe wouldn't have happened. Then PSG hit the woodwork, United consolidated the lead with a penalty and the rest was history. Throughout his career he had many games were we either grinded a win or we were lucky to win. Case in point is the Atalanta game and the Villareal game. If you turn those wins into draws or defeats then Ole would have been fired long ago.
Ole had relied heavily on a solid defensive unit and individual brilliance. Now he's been fount out.
Doesn't make any sense. There are probably draws and losses where we could have got a result if we'd have taken our chances. That's football, there's nothing at all unique about Oles games and fortune after 3 years. Once you have a sample size that goes out of the window.
It's not luck that he finished where he did and it doesn't appear to be luck that we're regressing, or at least treading water depending on if things improve between now and the end of the season. It's simply a fair reflection.
It's literally been happening since the early days of his managerial reign. Saved by the wonder goal or an individual piece of brilliance often papering over the shit tactics and whatnot. Should never have been given the full-time gig. Fans road the emotional wave of "Our Ole" and the board had a yes man on the cheap, a man that never did anything to even get the gig on an interim basis. In no other hypothetical world is United hiring a guy from Molde. It's like the football world's version of Jerry Jones giving Jason Garrett the head coaching role for Dallas. Club DNA and all that.
Having Sancho play as a touchline hugging winger/wingback, is a huge mistake. Its not his game. It seems like its not just United fans, but the management too, that doesnt know what kinda player Sancho is.
Appreciate the context - very interesting and perhaps you're onto something vis a vis that potential revenue stream. Cheers for the back and forth!
Signing Sancho in the first place made no sense.
Its not one of those you needed hindsight for. He doesn't fit into anything Ole does and doesn't resolve the massive central midfield issue which in half our games renders who's playing on the wings completely irrelevant anyway.
Another thing that doesn't solve this problem at all (and in fact makes it worse) is playing an extra centreback. So now Sancho is caught in a double trap of stupidity since regardless of whether he has been getting tried as a wing back, we have been playing a wing back system in which there is no place for him.
I feel sorry for him. Although I feel sorry for a lot of our players as half are having their careers wasted by inept management and even the ones who get picked are just thrown under the bus week after week.
Its not one of those you needed hindsight for. He doesn't fit into anything Ole does and doesn't resolve the massive central midfield issue which in half our games renders who's playing on the wings completely irrelevant anyway.
Another thing that doesn't solve this problem at all (and in fact makes it worse) is playing an extra centreback. So now Sancho is caught in a double trap of stupidity since regardless of whether he has been getting tried as a wing back, we have been playing a wing back system in which there is no place for him.
I feel sorry for him. Although I feel sorry for a lot of our players as half are having their careers wasted by inept management and even the ones who get picked are just thrown under the bus week after week.
Exactly.
SAF was all about improving his players, both physically, technically and most importantly, mentally.
He taught them how to lead and be led.
And his record stands comparison with anyone else.
Sancho should just be sold, for his benefit as much as ours. We bought a player whose style is suited for an entirely different system.
This is the problem with United, we don't commit to a system and then buy players who will fit into the roles that are needed.
This is the problem with United, we don't commit to a system and then buy players who will fit into the roles that are needed.
That's not the context. What they do in all sports is target well known writers that have a following, the ones that are directly googled and have an actual following on twitter and Facebook or are on popular podcasts/blogs. And the articles quoting this article didn't came out at literally the same time, there is hours between them if you take MEN and The Suns there is nearly 3 hours between them and the Guardian published it 1.5 hours between each. If you want to have a clue on the potential reason it was picked by papers it's with the MEN initial angle, they state that the sentence quoted in this thread had United fans furious, their article was published after the Athletic article was shared on Reddit, after the quote was shared on Redcafe and after it was shared by the aggregator that you have in the OP.
Now I'm 100% sure that MEN publishes articles based on popular threads that are on the Caf, they have done it way to often for it to be a coincidence. Especially during summer.
I mentioned three things ie deep pockets, luck and players who are willing to die for him (metaphorically speaking)
Deep pockets is the easiest to explain. In the past 3 years Ole had spent a whopping 415m without winning anything to back that up. There is a very valid reason to that. Ole's lack of tactics means that we rely heavily on individual brilliance to bridge the gap. Often that individual brilliance had saved his job. In his first year as full timer he was going nowhere up until Bruno was signed and he dragged us out of the mess we were in. This year it was mostly on DDG and Ronaldo who carried the can.
Luck has been a central figure of his success as well. I mentioned the PSG game as it was probably Ole's most important game. This season its littered with examples of that kind from the Atalanta game (some might say both games but lets say one) right to the Villareal game, the Wolves game (they literally destroyed us but kept failing chances) and the West Ham game (DDG out of all people saving a penalty). Don't take me wrong, sometimes luck help everyone. We were lucky in the CL final of the treble for example. However Ole ride on luck far more then any manager I've ever seen in football.
Finally and to Ole's credit, players are willing to die for him. That's in my opinion is the most important of the three. The reason its so important is that you can buy a team every year or you can get 10 penalties per game but if the players want the manager out then he's gone. Penalties can be missed, tackles that deserve a red card can be made, strikers can miss tens of chances in front of goal etc. Time and time again Ole has come to the brink only to be bailed out by an heroic performance by his team. So we can safely say that at least up to late (there are some early worrying signs) his team loves him and wants him to succeed.
Sancho skillset is too complicated for Ole as a simpleton manager to comprehend. Ole only know brexit long ball, pashun, running down the wing and random moments of brilliance. Might as well buy Adama from wolves if that is his goal.
But this is absolutely hilarious!
(Possibly) grown-up people who actually think it is literally true that someone has managed to remain manager of Manchester United based purely on luck.Nice try. Ole has remained manager well above his pedigree due to a variety of reasons, mostly due to his United DNA and former player status. His tactics have overwhelmingly been shit, bizarre, odd, nonexistent, whatever one wants to call it since the early days in. The squad will go on a run of results, stumble, turn to shit a while, and then boom, another run followed by a stumble then some more shit. Rinse, repeat. For three years and has progressively worsened with results sometimes papering over the obvious cracks and flaws. And calling the shots from the top is a family of clueless but greedy leeches making decisions that first and foremost line their pockets. Hmm, maybe there is some luck in that, you have may have accidentally figured it out in jest.But this is absolutely hilarious!
What are you talking about?
Attitude against this 3-5-2/5-3-2 is overwhelmingly negative.
Of all our wingers I think Sancho is the least suited to that role.
It's fecking hilarious he bought him this season. Has he even been given a proper shot at his RW position before being possibly shoe-horned at WB?
Sancho is not just a prospect, he's proven himself in one of the top leagues in world football from the age of 17 and Haaland was the biggest beneficiary of his creativity since he joined Dortmund
You like keeping things simple and clear, don't you. Good luck with that.
Eh, it works.
Interesting - thank you for the clarifications as well, especially re: the timing of the pieces!
This is the problem that stems from our ownership. Been lurking for a while but even armchair pundits on the Redcafe have been calling out a very poignant lack from the coaching and team play going back to the end of Solksjaer's caretaker run. Results may have been enough to keep him in the job but the standard of play was as bad as anything we've seen with past managers at their worth. There was no notable growth even after the addition of millions of pounds.
A DOF. Ownership actually interested in building a footballing team rather than a brand would have set the timer on the manager earlier.
Right now I am worried that the focus is too much on Ole being sacked. It has to happen but there can be no appointment that will be as constructive as the owners and all their minions leaving as well. Their focus is wrong but even worse, it's a culture of nepotism and favoritism that has hampered the club on so many levels beyond just the manager.
It's the luck point that makes little sense to me, though. Of course he's had some stand out results and some have been important to him and some may have featured some fortune. But what is the significance over and above any other manager? I don't think it's realistic to think he's had an ordinate amount of fortune over 3 years of football. Maybe Ole should become a poker player if he gets luck over this sample size.
I wouldn't say there was anything that special about results like the Atalanta ones either, of course we weren't great but we still had enough to get over the line. Mediocre performance does not imply that there has to be luck, Atalanta weren't good enough to take advantage so is that luck or simply a reflection of the fact Atalanta are what they are?
I remain unconvinced his team love him. I'd say we are simply inconsistent. We don't really know that the players are rising to the occasion to save Oles job. If they were able to produce this on a whim then I would say they should know what the missing ingredient is already. Then the question becomes why don't they show that more often if they truly respect the manager? They can't because they're not responding to his coaching so it's not working often. It's more like a tepid admiration than deep rooted respect in my opinion.
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While I concede that luck helped even the best of managers there's no denying that it helped Ole the most especially in crucial games were he had to win. Its not the only reason why he's were he is (deep pockets, nepotism and man management helped) but its one of the main reasons.
I think that his team loves him mainly because he's a likeable guy (ffs even Keane love the guy) who doesn't try to micromanage his players. He's also surrounded by coaches who are nice people as well (Carricky, Fletchery, Phelany and Mckennicky) What's not to like in such a man. However with Ole lying to certain players and with the introduction of players who expect nothing but excellence I won't be surprised that the mood is now shifting.
The reality is, we've done this to top players since since Fergie retired.
It really gets my Goat, we spend ages chasing a top talent, we then spend the best part of £50 - 90m landing the player, to then play him right out of his comfort zone in a position he wasn't bought for.
Time and time and time again....
Pogba is a prime example. Forget what you think of him aside for a moment, we bought him because he was tearing it up at Juve and we desperately needed a world class midfielder who could attack and link up play. What did Mourinho do? Stuck him in a defensive holding position alongside Matic!! It's no wonder he's wanted to leave the past few seasons.
Now skip forward to Sancho and what are we doing? The EXACT SAME THING!! tearing it up at Dortmund attacking now he's barely played and they are talking of sticking him in defence!...I'm gobsmacked....truly I am.
What are the management thinking when they spend that amount of money on a player, based on his specific talents, only to then play him completely out of position and barely get them used to playing in their regular position??? We do it every season and it's about time a manager actually bought a player and played him where he's best and what he's confident in.
It's akin to mortgaging yourself up to the eyeballs and then never living in your house.
We've done the same with VDB, barely played him and if we sign any other top talent we'll do the same to them, mark my words.
It really gets my Goat, we spend ages chasing a top talent, we then spend the best part of £50 - 90m landing the player, to then play him right out of his comfort zone in a position he wasn't bought for.
Time and time and time again....
Pogba is a prime example. Forget what you think of him aside for a moment, we bought him because he was tearing it up at Juve and we desperately needed a world class midfielder who could attack and link up play. What did Mourinho do? Stuck him in a defensive holding position alongside Matic!! It's no wonder he's wanted to leave the past few seasons.
Now skip forward to Sancho and what are we doing? The EXACT SAME THING!! tearing it up at Dortmund attacking now he's barely played and they are talking of sticking him in defence!...I'm gobsmacked....truly I am.
What are the management thinking when they spend that amount of money on a player, based on his specific talents, only to then play him completely out of position and barely get them used to playing in their regular position??? We do it every season and it's about time a manager actually bought a player and played him where he's best and what he's confident in.
It's akin to mortgaging yourself up to the eyeballs and then never living in your house.
We've done the same with VDB, barely played him and if we sign any other top talent we'll do the same to them, mark my words.
Anyone who thinks that luck is even part of the explanation why someone has managed to remain manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world for three years do not understand what luck is, and is engaging in free fantasy. Luck is the result of an element of chance going your way. This can happen in an individual game. It does not happen with any consistency, and it cuts both ways. No one is consistently lucky, and the longer the time period, the more the luck will even out. We can all name 10 games where the luck went our way, and we got a result we might easily not have gotten. Just like we could all name ten games where the opposite happened.
You don't finish third and then second because of luck, nor because your players think you're a nice guy. This is obvious to anyone prepared to use his brain. You finish in those positions because quite a lot of things have been done well and right. And I will never, ever understand why it's not enough for some people that things are going to shit right now, without having to pretend that it's all also been just COMPLETELY shit all along.
You don't finish third and then second because of luck, nor because your players think you're a nice guy. This is obvious to anyone prepared to use his brain. You finish in those positions because quite a lot of things have been done well and right. And I will never, ever understand why it's not enough for some people that things are going to shit right now, without having to pretend that it's all also been just COMPLETELY shit all along.
It's not luck per say. It's relying on individual brilliance, considering we are a top club that spend billion since Fergie retired. He's a nothing manager that got bailed out time and time again by individual performances and our team catching purple patches during the season.But this is absolutely hilarious!
No one is saying his "luck" is a force of the universe dude. The luck we are talking about is skill or lack of skill from players/other teams. He's benefitted from Liverpool's injury crisis last year, Ronaldo being amazing in this Ucl, getting 400m to buy competent players (even if he's ruining them the natural talent gives him some wins), the board being made up of people who love his yes man act, and this fan base supporting him because of a goal over 20 years ago.
I seriously told my friend that with the money our club wasted we could help solve world hunger and homelessness. Buying hundred millions worth of players to sit as a cheerleader in the bench without getting any gametime is absurd. Imagine doing this in other club or any other line of work. There are no accountability and responsibility in this club at all. Another thing I really hate is this “United DNA” crap bollox which is an exchange word for nepotism and cronyism. Our DNA can be summed up in one word : winning. Not this ex player and his drinking mates crap who run this club and be Glazer’s lapdog
Some of these examples are nothing to do with luck, they are just relatively normal occurrences in football.
If other teams have an injury crisis or lack skill then what has that got to do with us?Does that put an asterisk over everything the title winners do, or that we do? Of course not, it's just football - there could be untold reasons why they got injuries or why our opposition play poorly that are nothing to do with fortune. To take that even further into our manager being lucky as a result of the failings of others is a huge stretch.
Ronaldo playing well in the CL - seriously? What did we sign him for if not to score crucial goals? It's what he is known for. Would it be luck if Salah dribbled past someone and curled it in the corner, or Van Dijk got his head on a goal saving clearance? It's the point of having top players on extravagant sums, they make the difference.
The luck he has is that he's got a board behind him that seemed glued to an idea with no appetite for change. That's real fortune because he has relatively little control over it but it keeps him in a job. Subscribing all these individual football actions to fortune makes far less sense, especially when people have come up with this narrative that he's fortunate over years, or picking out random games and ignoring others.
They should be trying stuff. That’s the point of training.
I mean your way if looking at it is fine and I can understand why you don't think he's been lucky, I just disagree. Ronaldo scoring injury time winners is Ronaldo‘s skill. Ole is benefiting from that without doing anything. Ole is basically the guy who doesn't do his part in a group project but the group gets a b anyways
If the team truly decided to go with 5-3-2 then yes United should try different stuff.
What I don't like about this is that this is an attempt to just cover up the shaky defense and somehow put Ronaldo into the team.
I still believe United should go with a 4-2-3-1 (Shaw-Maguire-Varane-AWB/Mcfred/Rashford-Bruno-Sancho/Cavani) as the best team. Buy one solid defensive midfield like Rice and you can put Rice and DVB/Pogba instead of Mcfred, which would be more like a 4-3-3.
What I don't like about this is that this is an attempt to just cover up the shaky defense and somehow put Ronaldo into the team.
I still believe United should go with a 4-2-3-1 (Shaw-Maguire-Varane-AWB/Mcfred/Rashford-Bruno-Sancho/Cavani) as the best team. Buy one solid defensive midfield like Rice and you can put Rice and DVB/Pogba instead of Mcfred, which would be more like a 4-3-3.
But if you distill it in this way then it goes for every manager there's ever been. None of them kick the ball for them so what is the actual distinction with respect to Ole?
Usually we'd just accept it for what it is, a manager has procured a top player who is doing top player things. Sometimes they even get credit for getting them, or for whatever they did that allowed the player to shine. However that is not possible for Ole, as we already have this climate where everything good is individualistic and everything bad flows from lack of structure.
I just think he's extremely unpopular right now which is leading to some clouded judgment.
Other managers are tactics and ways to play football. Ole has literally scoffed at the idea of doing that. I think you are underselling how transformative a manager can be because we have ole and are used to him not doing much.