I said it on a more lengthy post during our conversation with @oneniltothearsenal
In other words of course
The Biden Presidency
- Thread starter Raoul
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In other words of course
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The US asked Qatar to form a relationship with Hamas more than 15 years ago and continued to encourage it. Jim Biden isn't going to be the reason they won't declare it a state sponsoring terrorism especially with them being the main mediator in the hostage talks.
Forget all that, this article has actually nothing to do with it, and this seems like a post from a MAGA account.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...revent-icc-arrest-warrants-against-netanyahu/
Israel, US said working to prevent ICC arrest warrant against Netanyahu
Israel, US said working to prevent ICC arrest warrant against Netanyahu
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If you vote for biden you support genocide. That's it.
I think you need to take a break. This is so ridiculous and even you know it.
How many dead kids is enough for you to not vote for him?
When I vote, I will only have 2 choices. Two. That's it. It sucks. So, as others have said, we pick the best of those two. It's not a difficult decision. You know this.
Only having two choices doesn't invalidate the fact your vote is supporting genocide, it's only that you think the alternative is worse.
Ok let me rephrase. How many dead children would cause you to stay home and not vote for either?
I will vote because that's all I can do. To give you a serious answer, whatever the death toll is, it will be worse under Trump so unless there is a seismic shift in the rhetoric from the right, it will be Biden (because he is the least bad).
I really don't envy biden voters and I'm really glad I'm not an american so all if this is hypothetical for me. "I think trump is so terrible that I'm voting for a genocide supporter" is a terrible place to be.
Pretty much. Though it's more like, I am voting for the guy that is less genocidal (by far).
You can just not vote. Not voting for the genocider is the only moral choice.
To be fair, both Rs and D's support it.
That carries a lot of risk.
Also worth noting its not a big issue on the voter radar this year. This poll came out just last week.
While I do understand and agree with this sentiment and I'd either vote Biden (more likely) and abstain the election alltogether (less likely) if I were you, we still can't say for sure that Trump is more genocidal than Biden. Because we know for a fact that Biden is sponsoring genocide. Most likely, Trump would have been the same or worse if in the same position, but the fact is, it is Biden who holds the cards and is actively participating, or rather making US participate, in genocide.
So presumably all of you don't vote for anyone, anywhere? As every world leader has failed to stop this genocide?
Also not voting is an active choice, as you say. You may pat yourself on the back about it, but it is a simple mathematical fact that not voting against Trump makes it more likely he will be elected. The options are not:
a: Biden
b: Trump
c: Unicorns and rainbows
As I've said before, I believe that any decision in life - literally any of them - is a kind of sum function. For several posters on here, it seems the Gaza conflict represents an inifinty in that equation. Trump could literally start executing, say, Mexican migrants in big squares with his own assault rifle but, because of the value of that infinity, it would still be preferable to having sullied the moral compass by voting Biden. I guess that's fine, good for you for having something so clarifying in life.
Also not voting is an active choice, as you say. You may pat yourself on the back about it, but it is a simple mathematical fact that not voting against Trump makes it more likely he will be elected. The options are not:
a: Biden
b: Trump
c: Unicorns and rainbows
As I've said before, I believe that any decision in life - literally any of them - is a kind of sum function. For several posters on here, it seems the Gaza conflict represents an inifinty in that equation. Trump could literally start executing, say, Mexican migrants in big squares with his own assault rifle but, because of the value of that infinity, it would still be preferable to having sullied the moral compass by voting Biden. I guess that's fine, good for you for having something so clarifying in life.
True, eboue is still right though. Even voting for the least bad, it's still voting to support genocide.
Out of interest, if Biden came out tonight and said he can no longer support Netanyahu and Israel's offensive actions, and thus no additional aid or weaponary will be sent from the US government to Israel, do you think that would change things?
What would you think if the house and senate over-ruled him?
What would you think if literally nothing changed whatsoever, except now it was clear the US President does not have that much influence over this Israeli Prime Minister?
I do think we'll get to that stage sooner rather than later, to be honest.
What would you think if the house and senate over-ruled him?
What would you think if literally nothing changed whatsoever, except now it was clear the US President does not have that much influence over this Israeli Prime Minister?
I do think we'll get to that stage sooner rather than later, to be honest.
You know, because a hundred different people have made this point to you for months, that the issue isn't "failing to stop", it is that the Biden administration is providing weapons, money, and heroic lone-wolf diplomatic cover to this slaughter.
The fact that you're saying this line since November, despite these responses, makes me assume you're "debating" in bad faith.
Multiple State Dept staffers have resgined because the US is sitting on a pile of evidence of IDF war crimes which, by law, require the administration to stop arming them. Their attitude towards ongoing war crimes is to simply not investigate so that the mountain of evidence doesn't get bigger.
I also have great difficulty in imagining 60 votes from a Dem-majority senate after a historically Israel-friendly Democrat president makes an earth-shattering announcement like that.
As a reminder, this is Biden:
His is a consistent morally-based deeply personal position of support. Netanyahu is openly trying to shiv him to get his friend Trump back in office and Biden hugs him even tighter. Some things are above politics after all.
What is the benefit of not voting, what will it achieve?
This seems to be the problem of how you're looking at this. If biden was doing his best to stop bibi but it wasn't working, that would be one thing. But biden is supporting bibi by sending him top military equipment, billions in cash and full diplomatic support in all international institutions. Biden is not failing to stop genocide, he is actively supporting it.
With your vote, you are also supporting it, even if not your intention.
If you can discard that so easily, goo for you I guess, but some people can't set aside their morals so easily.
Trump was already president pal. He didn't execute Mexicans with assault rifles or whatever other fever dreams you have.
Biden is president now and he's literally doing a genocide. We don't have to speculate. He's doing it. Right now.
That's not happening and Biden and his party are sending in police to crack the skulls of unarmed college kids to ensure that isn't happening.
There's not going to be some resolution to save you from the position you are in by supporting Biden.
You have to make a moral choice. You have to ask yourself "is this okay?" and "do I support this". I'm not going to post pictures of dead Gazan children. You can find them if you want. You won't be able to say you didn't know what was going on.
If you don't vote for biden, you're not supporting genocide.
One can argue trump would be worse (though I haven't seen anyone explaining what is worse than genocide) but ultimately people have to be able to live with their choices and their conscience. Personally, I'm not sure I would be able to sleep very well at night knowing I have actively supported this, so if I were american I would probably not vote.
This is so on the head that it's hurting people thinking about it. A few American posters in this thread for sure.
That's ridiculous. When you vote, are you supporting every issue that the candidate supports? No, you pick the one that most aligns with what you want to have happen. Saying I support genocide by voting for Biden is infantile.
So far Biden 'has killed' 15k+ children. Trump, almost zero (not sure if school shootings can be added here in his first term).
That's 15k+ direct killings vs none (or handful).
As I've said before, I 100% understand pragmatism in voting.
To put it in terms that non-Indians can understand: If I was back home, I would be voting for a party whose founder praised Mussolini and whose cadre carried out a massacre in my city, because their main rival, on course for a constitution-defining majority nationally, had founders who praised Hitler's Jewish policy in the late 30s.
All I say is that:
1. If you're voting for a party of war crimes and cracking hippy skulls, that is what you are voting for. Just as a Jill Stein ballot doesn't come with a check-box for "I don't support Trump", a Democratic ballot doesn't come with a box for "I am against Palestinian slaughter." That support is implicit, and will be read as such if that party wins.
If I voted for a fascist party to keep out another fascist party, I understand what that means, it doesn't erase my support for fascism.
2. Some people have moral red lines. It's not that hard to imagine. And I would guess that even the pragmatists here have some. Maybe abortion, maybe gun control, maybe if their family was personally affected. I don't get why a red line at ongoing support for this atrocity is so hard to understand.
To put it in terms that non-Indians can understand: If I was back home, I would be voting for a party whose founder praised Mussolini and whose cadre carried out a massacre in my city, because their main rival, on course for a constitution-defining majority nationally, had founders who praised Hitler's Jewish policy in the late 30s.
All I say is that:
1. If you're voting for a party of war crimes and cracking hippy skulls, that is what you are voting for. Just as a Jill Stein ballot doesn't come with a check-box for "I don't support Trump", a Democratic ballot doesn't come with a box for "I am against Palestinian slaughter." That support is implicit, and will be read as such if that party wins.
If I voted for a fascist party to keep out another fascist party, I understand what that means, it doesn't erase my support for fascism.
2. Some people have moral red lines. It's not that hard to imagine. And I would guess that even the pragmatists here have some. Maybe abortion, maybe gun control, maybe if their family was personally affected. I don't get why a red line at ongoing support for this atrocity is so hard to understand.
Like I said, a vote for Republican or Democrat is going to be the same for this issue. Both parties will support Israel unconditionally.
So it seems this stance is limited to protecting one's own moral compass for this specific issue, which to me seems incompatible with the notion of democracy. Not to mention the implication that voting is a person's only means of interacting with the political process.
There are other things you can do if you feel strongly about an issue without taking a very significant risk of handing power to a party that will make the US and the world a worse place.
I dont want to hear about tax cuts or infrastructure or literally anything else on the biden platform. He's doing genocide. He belongs in the Hague.
I'm not saying you want genocide to happen, that would be infantile. But indirectly you are supporting it, even if you don't like it.
What are my options? Not vote (which doesn't change a damn thing except help your moral superiority)?
Can you elaborate on the bolded bit?
I don't know how to dissociate my morals from politics.
You framing it as moral superiority misses the point I'm making. I wouldn't be going around saying "ah you see look how superior I am, I didn't vote for these children in gaza being blown up but you did. see how superior I am", no, that's not it at all. I am talking about my conscious, the talks I have with myself when I close my eyes to sleep. It's a deeply personal thing, ultimately I have to live with myself 24 hours a day. I don't think I could cope mentally knowing my vote contributed to something so horrible.