Yet he didn't take penalties and is one of the record goal scorers in the PL...
The centre-forward market...
- Thread starter Rozay
- Start date
I agree on Toney but think we would get rinsed for him.
I can't see Toney or Mitrovic making the step up to a top 4 team. It just doesn't happen with strikers in my opinion. It's similar to goalkeepers - people get super excited about these amazing keepers at the middle or lower end of the table, and they never look comfortable when they move up.
You're either built to be a striker at the top end or you're not. It's pretty obvious you're not if you're 27-28 and haven't made that step up yet. Especially Mitro and Toney who've spent most of that time in the Championship.
You're either built to be a striker at the top end or you're not. It's pretty obvious you're not if you're 27-28 and haven't made that step up yet. Especially Mitro and Toney who've spent most of that time in the Championship.
Like I said, one freak season. 34 goals in that season and 153 in his 15 other seasons combined. If you play 16 seasons as a striker in the premier league, you'll probably end up on a list or two. He was a really good striker, don't get me wrong. He just wasn't among the best in the world.
You rightly say that Cole and Yorke worked in SAF's system. They may not have scored 20 league goals a season very often because SAF rotated his strikers for the better good of the team. This allowed United to win numerous trophies including the treble, and Cole won 5 Premier League titles, Yorke 3, and Alan Shearer for all his individual records, won one measly title, and finished runner up in the Full Members' Cup!!!! (???)
What happens to City if Haaland gets injured? They are all looking for him to be in the best scoring position, but if he gets injured (where's Keano when we need him?) they will have to revert to their old style very quickly. I think that could really disupt their season.
You do realise that Cassidy is actual Peter Crouch!!!!
Toney and Mitrovic are the two best strikers on the market right now which is quite sad as neither is close to world class. They'd both do a job for us though.
Yeah, I've liked Lautaro a while but he’s a bit small maybe? That being said we’ve suddenly got quite a South American feel with Martinez, Antony, Casemiro and Fred so it may help lure him.
This is where scouting is important. Understanding if a player does the right things for a bigger team but their record doesn’t necessarily show it. Say Toney gets 10 goals for Brentford; maybe that translates to 17-18 for Utd or it doesn’t because he’s a bench option. Just as importantly is his touch, passing etc good enough to play with a ‘better’ side.
Obviously, some strikers do move up from smaller clubs and are a success.
I sure didn't.
He ended up on the 100+ and top 30 all time list in the PL and the top 20 goalscorers of all time for England list as well, didn't he? .....and he had a better international career than Cole. Quite impressive career for a footballer that. I believe he would admit that there was at least a couple of handfuls of strikers in his generation that were sharper than him though.
Yea he is not the target man that I'd prefer normally, but his overall quality makes him an exception. He has the potential to become world class, while I'm unsure if the other CFs, including Osimhen, have the same potential. He'd become our Sergio Aguero basically. He's really the only CF that I'd be happy to spend more than 100m on. Would be lit to have L.Martinez on both ends of the field
So at least Mane is now elite right?
For the prices you said I'd bite their hands off. We desperately need a proper #9 atm and that might be well the difference for a top 4 or not. We have abundant technique, flair, pace you name it but we severely lack some strength up top. Not necessarily a world class goal scorer but only a proper #9 who can win headers can work the CBs can hold up the ball can pass so our wingers can thrive off is more than enough imo. That #9 would be absolutely critical when we have to face the lowblocks.
If later we manage to buy a world class one we can always sell Toney or Mitrovic. They're good strikers. Even for a half of what we pay now is still very good business.
As I said previously it'd be mental to pay 80m for a lad who played like a season in the Austrian league. Plus even if we buy him he won't be ready now while we desperately need a #9 right now.
Tbh I don't mind whoever we buy for whatever the price as long as the guy is good enough to play as a proper #9 in the PL. I'd trust ETH on this. Problem is we haven't and doesn't look like we'd buy any.
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I'd take Toney or Mitrovic too, but I think they are both overpriced and we would still be looking for an upgrade in the CF position. That was my point.
Imo they're already an upgrade on what we have.
Who we currently have as our main #9? A guy who can't stay fit to save his ass and even if fit can't win headers?
We're United if we don't accept to get rinsed a bit then we won't be able to buy anyone let alone an upgrade on what we have. Especially given how dire the current strikers market is. It's just impossible for any top club to buy a striker right now without being rinsed a bit.
Osimhen should be the priority target next summer along with a GK. If Dalot keeps up the high level of play and claims the RB spot then we can put more money to addressing those next 2 key areas.
Football exists outside of the PL
Yeah not disagreeing with you there, he's not a typical target man striker. However I do think he's a versatile forward that can play in all three positions up front, but that he's best as a "roaming forward". Bringing him in alongside a budget-option in Moussa Dembele (who is a target man) would provide us with good options in attack next season. My guess is that Ronaldo and maybe also Martial or Rashford might leave next summer, so we would need two new incomings if that is the case.
Right now we have Martial, Rashford and Ronaldo to play in that role. I'm not sure Toney or Mitrovic would be direct upgrades on any of those, but they would be nice additions to the squad, and competition for that spot in the starting 11 would be healthy. They are both really hard workers and I like them both, but I just think they are too expensive for their age and CVs. If they don't get the numbers here we'd have to take massive losses with them and even if they make it to the starting 11 we would still be looking for an upgrade.
Lautaro, Vlahovic or Osimhen for instance would cost a bit more, but would come here with a chance of becoming worldbeaters for us. Still not without risk of course, but I think you see the differense.
Of those three only Martial would be considered as a proper #9. Rashford or the current Ronaldo simply doesn't have the strength required. Rashford is now a winger not even a striker anymore. I don't want to shit on Ronaldo this is not a thread about him but ETH clearly rates Rashford over him to play as our #9 when Martial is injured that speaks volumes imo.
If Martial can stay fit we don't really need to buy a new #9 at least for this season but guy is unreliable af. Simply can't count on him for the entire season.
As for those strikers you mentioned there's nothing guarantee that they'd even be as good as Toney or Mitrovic in the PL. That lad Lautaroz is 1.74m ffs and doesn't seem like the type small but strong af like Aguero.
With all due respect they're all playing in an easier less demanding less physical league than the PL. Any amateur boxer would look like Floyd Mayweather against me. But against Floyd Mayweather that boxer will look exactly like me. You'll never know if they can do it here until they do. Why spend on them when there are much safer options around for the same money?
Anyway as I said previously I'd be happy with any #9 ETH fancies problem is it doesn't look like we'd buy anyone.
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Who is the better all round player out of Martinez/Osimhen, actually maybe that should have said who fits Erik's system more
ESPNNL had a funny post on Instagram, an interview with Brobby where they quick-fired questions at him. Favorite club? Manchester United, he said with a big smile. Favorite game ever? Man Utd 8-2 Arsenal. We do need a CF that can hold the ball, maybe an option for next year?
@LuckyScout78 have you heard of Patrik Schick? If you have do you think he's got the minerals?
All in on Vlahovic. Get him in Manchester to compete with Haaland. Two big bruising bastards slugging it out.
I'm not quite ready to jump on the Toney hype train just yet.
Sure, he is doing very well at the moment and if he continued this all season then he would have to become a viable option for United in the summer.
Sure, he is doing very well at the moment and if he continued this all season then he would have to become a viable option for United in the summer.
would happily take Toney for 50m
So who fits Erik's system best out of Vlahovic/Osimhen/Schick/David/Toney
Vlahovic would be interesting. I think he’s the one player Juventus would absolutely not sell, mind
Toney and Osimhen are the only two candidates if we want power and physicality in the box and who can also press, especially Ivan Toney. Mitrovic as a back up wouldnt be a bad option too.
Andy Cole did not have a fluke season at Newcastle. He was a pure, unadulterated, selfish striker there on the pitch to score and score alone. At Manchester United he was forced to relearn the game - particularly by Cantona, who was scathing of the player he came to the club as - and cater to the team in every way from running off the ball to actually passing to open team-mates and being a far more rounded player. It is one of the greatest striker adjustments in the history of the sport and something that goes under the radar for the majority that this pure striker became one of the most rounded forwards there has been in the English game. Period.
In more modern parlance, it would be RVN modifying his game to the point he could play like a Luis Saha. Andy Cole's trajectory set on a very different path once he left Newcastle. His goal tallies dropped because he became selfless and considered in the extreme.
Dwight Yorke was a ballon D'or level forward in the season he put his all into playing here. That he wasn't even considered that season is a travesty. Dwight Yorke completely lost his way and became a party boy over a footballer once he'd won it all. His biggest failing is he lost his appetite for the game immediately once that treble was won. He's not the first that met such a fate and certainly wasn't the last.
And for both of them, team play at Manchester United had more value than individual glory, so without that context, goalscoring rates and ratios don't mean much.
An utterly self-centered Newcastle version of Cole, extrapolated over a career would've scored far, far more goals, perhaps have won less and been nowhere near as rounded. That wouldn't make him a better striker - a different one, yes, but not definitively better.
A Yorke that kept his hunger would have been an interesting proposition because replicating what he did in his first season a couple more times catapults him into wholly different discussion as one of the best players active in Europe.
Your numbers without context for Toney and Mitrovic don't provide anything like the data needed for rounded assessment.
You think Cole and Yorke was elite/WC, while I think they were a tier or two below. Still really good strikers in a well oiled collective machinery, but they were both phased out of the team after the treble season while still in their late 20's. I think they were among the best strikers in England at the time, but that doesn't mean they were among the best in the world, because the best football was played outside of England back then (PL was ranked between 4th and 7th in Europe through the 90s comming in to the 2000s) Cole scored 1 goal in 15 games for England England in his career while Yorke scored 19 in 72 games for Trinidad & Tobago. Both of them went on to play for mulitple midtable/bottomtable clubs after they left us, and I can name at least a handful of strikers I think was better at the time. Let's just agree to disagree on that one.
When it comes to Toney and Mitrovic, I agree that the numbers lack context and doesn't reflect a just image of their quality compared to strikers in better teams. I would take them both here, but I honestly think we would still be looking for an upgrade on any of them if we did. That's why I think their quoted prices are too high.
At which point did I call either of them elite?
Yorke had to be phased out; his head was not in the game anymore and that cannot be ignored to make an overarching point about numbers because you're suggesting an organic decline where Yorke went out of his way to be a very poor professional.
You're reeling off a lot of numbers, but the simple fact is Yorke was easily the match of anyone in the treble season as evidenced in the Champions League where his performances actually went up a level.
Without context Cole's career shouldn't be measured. Glenn Hoddle effectively ruined Cole and his prospects for England, plus Shearer was the absolute golden boy - you either played alongside him in servitude or you didn't play at all.
Cole's trajectory was perfectly clear, as outlined in my previous post. If he had never arrived at United and was left to his own devices, he would never have become a rounded, team player - he would have used all of his intelligence to forage for more and more goals and he would have been fed by the likes of Beardsley his whole career to do so.
Your definition of a striker seems to be goals and ratios and not much else, which isn't going to give team players or those who safrificed themselves or their game for others a chance. By your metrics, Cole had to be his Newcastle version for a career - you seem to dismiss what a feat it is to be that kind of forward and do a complete 180 to what he became.
Also, numbers post-United are going to depend on so many factors, so blanket laying figures down just doesn't work or mean much because context is vital for a full picture.
The Toney and Mitrovic stuff is a fair 50:50 as to why some are apprehensive and others less so - it's a lot of money; it's not a 'sure thing' like getting the hottest prodigy is supposed to be and, if they flop, the club is stuck with them on high salaries with little to no resale value. The season will tell us a lot about both players, but if they have stellar campaigns, the arguments against them hold less weight because some forwards do come to life after ironing out their game.
The derth of amazing strikers is problematic and a conundrum in itself, which is seeing the likes of Liverpool spending crazy amounts on a player who just as many people think is going to be a huge flop as think will just about make a passing grade.
Seemingly, raw numbers are not the way most centre-forwards will be judged over the next few years: this appears to be the era of the modern-day Cole's, Drogba's and Saha's - anyone who contributes an astronomical amount to their team besides goals.
Erm, didn’t Cole score the most non-penalty goals in Premier League history after Shearer? If that’s not elite I don’t know what is. Criminally underrated.
Is Vlahovic the only real world class (at least potentially) player at Juve right now? He is awesome. But yeah no way Juve are selling him.
Try £70m as that is the absolute minimum it will take to take him from Brentford and nobody is going to pay that. These teams like Brentford really have no reason to sell their best players as it could be the difference between them staying up and going down and they won't be able to attract similar level of player with any assurances in the short term.
Just to throw in a new name: Kolo Muani from Frankfurt might be someone we should look out for this season and see how he does. Has been really good in the last couple of matches.
It would depend on the budget for next summer. Nkunku has a 60 million Euro release clause. I think he would be a smart buy. I Victor Osimhen and Lautaro Martinez are both good fits as well. Depending on how Martial and Rashford do up top, I would even be open to Gakpo as a developmental prospect.
Just depends on what the outlay is for the transfer window. Something like this would be acceptable.
FDJ or other CM - 70 mil
Jurren Timber (or Other RB) - 40 mil
Nkunku or other CF - 60 Mil
That's 170m spend and pretty do-able if you consider some players like Ronaldo will be moved on from.
Just depends on what the outlay is for the transfer window. Something like this would be acceptable.
FDJ or other CM - 70 mil
Jurren Timber (or Other RB) - 40 mil
Nkunku or other CF - 60 Mil
That's 170m spend and pretty do-able if you consider some players like Ronaldo will be moved on from.
Leao.
I know, just banking on their financial situation forcing a sale if they somehow miss out on ucl.