The constant media calls for us to replace Martial

drmuji

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Transfermarkt says he played 17 games under Jose as a centre forward. Not a lot, but also not never.

Van Gaal also started him a centre forward in 15/16 (28 appearances) , then he moved him to the left (24 appearances) when he'd play Rooney up top (and because Memphis was garbage), and later in the season to accommodate Rashford. Most of Martial's goals that season were scored when he played on the left.

in the Jose/Ole season, he played on the left 28 times and scored 10 goals. He played up top 11 times and scored 2 goals.

There was genuine criticism - including from United fans - that he didn't operate as a centre forward when deployed there, his off the ball movement was poor, he didn't gamble at the near post, was often outside of the box when the ball came across goal. All of those things have definitely improved.

I'm not saying he was a shit centre forward back then. Just that he has gotten better at the basics of it, as you would expect a young player to do.
You are right but you have to take into account that he was developing plus his head wasn't here and Jose didn't fancy him either.
The transformation under Ole is amazing. I think the confidence, the number 9 shirt, and the manager believing in him and helping him with his finishing (because of the manager being a striker) have contributed to the reason why he has started to perform really well
 

Verminator

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Fair enough. Still ten times the number 9 Kane will ever be though when he did play there.

Anyway regardless of Rooney, you still have a point that Englands current big star will end up trophyless unless he heads to a big club.
I feel a little sad for Kane.
His move should have happened a couple of years ago, but I can't see him moving to us, Madrid or Barca now.
Maybe PSG could do it. Post-Aguero City, an outside chance.
His age and recent injury woes will mean the offers wouldn't be very tempting to Spurs.
 

Hulme91

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I wouldn't spend the vast amount of cash needed to get Kane when we have a quality striker in Martial but some of the posts in here are ludicrous
Harry Kane has 4/5 top tier seasons to back-up his quality and has just bagged 20 plus again in a season where he's been labelled as finished
Martial still has a long way to go to get on the same level as that tier of striker
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

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You are right but you have to take into account that he was developing plus his head wasn't here and Jose didn't fancy him either.
The transformation under Ole is amazing. I think the confidence, the number 9 shirt, and the manager believing in him and helping him with his finishing (because of the manager being a striker) have contributed to the reason why he has started to perform really well
I agree, he was developing, and it's great to see that come to fruition, as a lot of young players don't always make that step.

He regressed massively under a supposedly world class manager, and is making huge strides under Ole, which is great. On the face of it, Ole deserves a lot of credit.

Great to see him play with that massive beaming grin on his face now too. He had a constant grimace prior to the last 18 months.
 

Jezpeza

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Think its ridiculous. Just watched his all goals/assists highlights This season. Hes mustard. Great combo play with the other forwards, especially rashford. Scored some awesome goals and also some really composed Finishes. Really fits how we want to play. Dont see why we need anyone else/who else is available, fits the style we play and improves the team
 

Eire Red United

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I feel a little sad for Kane.
His move should have happened a couple of years ago, but I can't see him moving to us, Madrid or Barca now.
Maybe PSG could do it. Post-Aguero City, an outside chance.
His age and recent injury woes will mean the offers wouldn't be very tempting to Spurs.
Should have went a year or two ago for sure, think he’s missed the boat now. Would take Neymar money for Levy to let him go, especially to another team in England.
 

romufc

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Like with a lot of United players, he went through a phase of fans believing that his best position was whichever position he didn't play in. If he had a poor game as a 9, it's because he's a left winger, and if he played poor out wide it was because he needs to be through the middle. Pundits were saying the same sort of thing as well, all whilst talking about the £50m tag, which didn't help. He was good at both, but still with a lot of room to improve.

That said, I think there is still clear improvement in the way he plays as a number 9. LvG gave him a lot of games there and whilst he did well, there was still a lot he needed to work on (understandably, he was very young). The way he moves and presses now is almost completely different. Right on the shoulder of the defender, making runs where he knows he might not get the ball, the sort of stuff that doesn't make the highlight reels but benefits the team and the attack. I don't think he was doing that as much or as effectively before. Perhaps it's no coincidence that these improvements are on display since working with Ole.

IMO the criticism was valid 3/4 years ago when he wasn't making runs or trying to disrupt the defence off the ball, but it definitely isn't now. It seems like pundits made their mind up about him in 15/16, and haven't budged.
I do agree on you with that. The £50m price tag doesnt mean anything now does it? If you actually look at it, because of our poor form he has hardly met any of his add on clauses so really we paid £40-45m for him.

I do agree, alot of fans were on his case because we saw talent there, we saw what he is capable of but it was never enough, he has 2 good games and 4 average ones.

He has matured alot and grown as a player, Ole deserves credit for that because he is looking lethal right now, everything he does is class.

Pundits have this agenda because of his attitude, they want a striker who will bully people etc. Pundits don't even know how we play football, or how Ole intends to, instead keep going on about a proper number 9. Look at teams like Liverpool, football has moved on, you have players that fit the bill.

We had Lukaku, a proper no. 9 and he scored loads of goals for us but he never filled team mates with conviction.
 

Clermontois

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Was another thread needed for this?

Martial has been very good this season. Is Kane a better player? Yes.

Are Man Utd going to buy Kane? No.

Is there an agenda against Martial? No.
At this moment and going forward, he isn't.

And based on the evidence last season alone there is a clear agenda.
 

Eckers99

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The real question is, why are you expecting anything better from people like Merson, Ince, Murphy and Savage?
 
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I do agree on you with that. The £50m price tag doesnt mean anything now does it? If you actually look at it, because of our poor form he has hardly met any of his add on clauses so really we paid £40-45m for him.

I do agree, alot of fans were on his case because we saw talent there, we saw what he is capable of but it was never enough, he has 2 good games and 4 average ones.

He has matured alot and grown as a player, Ole deserves credit for that because he is looking lethal right now, everything he does is class.

Pundits have this agenda because of his attitude, they want a striker who will bully people etc. Pundits don't even know how we play football, or how Ole intends to, instead keep going on about a proper number 9. Look at teams like Liverpool, football has moved on, you have players that fit the bill.

We had Lukaku, a proper no. 9 and he scored loads of goals for us but he never filled team mates with conviction.
I think we can all agree out of Martial, Kane and Lukuku there’s not a single person who would want Lukuku as their centre forward.

OGS deserves massive credit for how Martial has developed this season.
 

romufc

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I think we can all agree out of Martial, Kane and Lukuku there’s not a single person who would want Lukuku as their centre forward.

OGS deserves massive credit for how Martial has developed this season.
This is why I do not get this, Manutd need a proper CF. No we do not. We had one and we sold him because he did not fit our style.

Harry Kane would be good for us but we have to be realistic, he will cost more than Sancho, so why would we attempt to spend more money when we can spend it on a younger player who will fix the hole we have in our squad on the right.

We have played a big chunk of the season with Dan James as a RW.
 

afrocentricity

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He favours a more traditional number 9. It's hardly a controversial viewpoint. He conceded that Ole doesn't want to play that way. Not sure why people get so upset about it.
I dunno about people being upset.... but it's just daft. Tony is one of the last players that need replacing....

Edit: adding this just because
:drool: :drool: :drool:
 
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jderbyshire

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I disagree with Scholes and other pundits who say we need a 'proper' striker.

Liverpool don't have one.

The comments were ill-timed because not only has Martial had his best season for us, but he also came on and scored.
 

meamth

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Pundits are dinosaurs, when will they realize complete forwards are dying breed??

We're building a fluid FORWARDS consisting of versatile, fast, and exciting youngsters, interchanging positions!

Signing Kane will disrupt this, and they all should've known better.
 

Eckers99

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I disagree with Scholes and other pundits who say we need a 'proper' striker.

Liverpool don't have one.

The comments were ill-timed because not only has Martial had his best season for us, but he also came on and scored.
Firmino does everything you'd want from a forward other than score enough goals. As far as all-round play is concerned, he's exactly what you want from a CF.
 

jderbyshire

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Firmino does everything you'd want from a forward other than score enough goals. As far as all-round play is concerned, he's exactly what you want from a CF.
But you wouldn't call him a classic "proper striker" would you?

Like you said, he barely scores.
 

SadlerMUFC

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There was a time when I thought we needed a new #9. martial has since won me over. In fact, i will go as far as to say that the only #9's in the league that may be better than him are kane and Aguero. I don't mind getting a new #9 in for depth and to add competition, but we definitely don't need a striker to replace Martial...
 

Eckers99

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But you wouldn't call him a classic "proper striker" would you?

Like you said, he barely scores.
Style-wise I'd say he's a fairly typical, classic 'English' striker; in so far as he's strong, selfless, good in the air, holds the ball up well and brings people into play. That's what these pundits seem to be hinting at when they talk about a classic centre forward.

If he scored 20 a season, he's be pretty much the perfect old-school target man. It's all moot though, as he doesn't!
 

Paul_Scholes18

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There was a time when I thought we needed a new #9. martial has since won me over. In fact, i will go as far as to say that the only #9's in the league that may be better than him are kane and Aguero. I don't mind getting a new #9 in for depth and to add competition, but we definitely don't need a striker to replace Martial...
Same here. Last summer I wanted a striker or keeping Lukaku. Now Martial has shown he can really do it. We also if we get Sancho has enough options on the wings so that we can play Greenwood, Ighalo or Rashford up front if he gets injured.
 

Van Piorsing

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These media calls should end same day we signed Ighalo. Sometimes all you need is some rivalry and I think Martial will be even greater player when Greenwood will attack his spot for a striker.
 

EwanI Ted

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There's two bits to this, style of play, and Martial's performances.

In terms of style of play, Martial is not a traditional number 9 like, say, RVN. He's ok at holding up the ball but not amazing. He's average in the air and he's certainly not going to spend the game battling hardened centre backs shoulder to shoulder jumping for high balls. Thing is, that style of number nine is pretty old fashioned these days and not many teams play with them. Some of these older pundits still think that you need a target man up front, which is not essential and certainly not how Ole is setting up the team. Ole's game is about speed, interchanging attackers and playing the game on the floor. Martial's ability in the air is secondary to his ability with the ball at his feet or his pace, where he excels.

The other criticism about Martial's performances is a bit more fair. No one doubted his talent, but before this season, or even earlier in this season, what was missing was the determination and consistency. Since the turn of the year that's definitely changed though. He's gone from talented moments mixed in with drifting through games, to always trying to drive play forward and working hard to get involved.

Honestly, I didn't think we'd see this version of Martial, but credit to him, its down to his own efforts. If the Martial of the last 6 or so months is how he's going to be from here on in, then he definitely deserves his spot.
 
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It feels like every other day there’s a new “expert” in the media saying Martial isn’t good enough & needs replacing. Just in the last day we’ve seen Paul Scholes go on BT & say Harry Kane should be a bigger priority than Sancho because “United need a real number 9” and Paul Merson on sky sports saying that Martial isn’t reliable & we should replace with Kane. I’ve seen Savage, Murphy, Ince, and the like all come out with the same narrative.

What is going on here? Because these 2 aren’t isolated incidents. I see it all the time. Are these “pundits” even watching us play? Martial has been our most consistent forward this season, has 23 goals despite 2 months out & not taking pens. Yet it’s always him who the media call to be replaced. You really do have to question wether how nationality is playing a part here?

Don’t get me wrong Kane is a very good player, but he’s starting to develop a questionable injury record & I don’t think he would fit our forward as well as Martial does. He certainly shouldn’t be our “top priority” like Scholes thinks. Loved him as a player but he’s clueless at times as a pundit
They are idiots. For the first time in ages a United center forward had 17 league goals. But supposedly he isn't good enough.
 
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I don't think everyone is saying Martial should be replaced. People are saying United need more top players.

Everyone knows Fergie's great teams had 3 or 4 top forwards, they all got game time.

Martial has been great but what happens when he gets an injury? He can't play 60 games next year.
 

Clermontois

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I don't think the media have an "Agenda" against him, they just see how good he can be and are probably frustrated by that.
Post full of dumb explanations. If you think pundits who are jealous/dislike Man Utd are frustrated that any of our players don't reach top level then I have a bridge to sell you.
 

acnumber9

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He's scored many this season, and I'd expect him to score even more next season. If everything goes well too, I could see him scoring for quite a few years. We've had some top strikers, but not many quite had his all-round game though.

It's a prediction.
It’s a ridiculous one.
 

Clermontois

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If you want to win the league 17 league goals from your top scorer usually isn’t enough. Lukaku got 16 in 17/18 and he wasn’t good enough.
He said the first time in ages and also if Rashford also puts up similar numbers 17 for Martial will do. No guarantee Kane would score more here either, it is a different ball game playing here re Berbatov.
 

acnumber9

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He said the first time in ages and also if Rashford also puts up similar numbers 17 for Martial will do. No guarantee Kane would score more here either, it is a different ball game playing here re Berbatov.
But it’s a completely random bar to set. Lukaku scored one less two years ago and it wasn’t anywhere near enough. When did 17 goals become the benchmark for a striker that is ludicrous to think could be improved on?
 

Classical Mechanic

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He said the first time in ages and also if Rashford also puts up similar numbers 17 for Martial will do. No guarantee Kane would score more here either, it is a different ball game playing here re Berbatov.
There's no guarantee but I'd wager a lot of money that Kane would score a bucket full in a high chance creation team. If you look at his xG over the past 6 seasons he's scored 24 more than expected. This is one of the very best records in Europe. Only Messi that I've seen has done better (there may be others). This season he's scored about 5 more than expected which, along with his teams performance and his recent international record, doesn't really suggest that he's declining as many claim.

https://understat.com/player/647

Martial is good against his xG too but not quite as good as Kane.

https://understat.com/player/553
 

Paul_Scholes18

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But it’s a completely random bar to set. Lukaku scored one less two years ago and it wasn’t anywhere near enough. When did 17 goals become the benchmark for a striker that is ludicrous to think could be improved on?
The top strikers in the league do not get much more this season. Vardy was top scorer at 23 and last season it was similar numbers.
 

RepardReece

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But it’s a completely random bar to set. Lukaku scored one less two years ago and it wasn’t anywhere near enough. When did 17 goals become the benchmark for a striker that is ludicrous to think could be improved on?
Martial was out for 2 months though. Still bagged 17 goals and that's without penalties; correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure he's scored the most goals without penalties bar 1 or 2 players in the premier league this season. And that's whilst also playing half the season without Bruno and no creativity at all. IMO it would be stupid to replace Martial with Kane, he fits into the system Ole is creating.
 

acnumber9

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Martial was out for 2 months though. Still bagged 17 goals and that's without penalties; correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure he's scored the most goals without penalties bar 1 or 2 players in the premier league this season. And that's whilst also playing half the season without Bruno and no creativity at all. IMO it would be stupid to replace Martial with Kane, he fits into the system Ole is creating.
Tammy Abraham has a better goals to minutes ratio this season than Martial and hasn’t taken any penalties. And he definitely isn’t close to being good enough to be the main striker for a team challenging for the league. I’m not saying we should replace Martial by the way. He’s earned at least another season as first choice but this idea that we couldn’t even think about improving on him is complete lunacy. And 17 league goals is a bizarre benchmark.
 

SinNombre

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If you want to win the league 17 league goals from your top scorer usually isn’t enough. Lukaku got 16 in 17/18 and he wasn’t good enough.
If Martial took all our penalties, he would have had 25 goals comfortably.

17 non-penalty goals in 30 games is very good.



With regards to this thread, a lot of our fans underrate him as well so why wouldn't the media as well especially when it comes to their darling Kane.

In the 2 seasons he has played as a 9, he is averaging 20+ non-penalty goals. It is very obvious he is excellent.
 

Clermontois

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That’s a 33% difference. That’s not minor.
Looking at the kind of tap-in/deflection goals Vardy got against demoralized teams towards the end then it is minor. Funny thing is Vardy won't be a factor in the golden boot race next season anyway.
 

acnumber9

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If Martial took all our penalties, he would have had 25 goals comfortably.

17 non-penalty goals in 30 games is very good.



With regards to this thread, a lot of our fans underrate him as well so why wouldn't the media as well especially when it comes to their darling Kane.

In the 2 seasons he has played as a 9, he is averaging 20+ non-penalty goals. It is very obvious he is excellent.
Only if he actually scored them. He missed the penalty he did take. In minutes per goal he is being vastly out scored by an 18 year old in our own team. He’s been in very good form for the past two months. He’ll need to show he can perform for longer than that before we can talk about him being a long term fixture.
 

Mick1

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It feels like every other day there’s a new “expert” in the media saying Martial isn’t good enough & needs replacing. Just in the last day we’ve seen Paul Scholes go on BT & say Harry Kane should be a bigger priority than Sancho because “United need a real number 9” and Paul Merson on sky sports saying that Martial isn’t reliable & we should replace with Kane. I’ve seen Savage, Murphy, Ince, and the like all come out with the same narrative.

What is going on here? Because these 2 aren’t isolated incidents. I see it all the time. Are these “pundits” even watching us play? Martial has been our most consistent forward this season, has 23 goals despite 2 months out & not taking pens. Yet it’s always him who the media call to be replaced. You really do have to question wether how nationality is playing a part here?

Don’t get me wrong Kane is a very good player, but he’s starting to develop a questionable injury record & I don’t think he would fit our forward as well as Martial does. He certainly shouldn’t be our “top priority” like Scholes thinks. Loved him as a player but he’s clueless at times as a pundit
Scholes also said Martial is one of united's best players, also one of their most talented. Scholes isn't calling for him to be benched, more for him and Rashford to play off of a central striker. I don't think we need a 2 striker system, but I can see where he s coming from
 

acnumber9

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There really is no difference once you exclude penalties.

Unless you think Martial can't score them.
He can score them. He can also miss them. But he’s obviously not as good at them as others are or he would be taking them.