Defenders are awful. I’ve felt this for absolutely ages. Immobile doesn’t score the amount of goals he does back 10-15 years ago.
The decline of center back talent
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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I think on the ball the standard is perhaps higher than 10 years plus ago, but when it comes to actual defending it's pretty shocking. Even Liverpool only have one class defender really. Arsenal have arguably one too? Same with us? Chelsea none. Spurs have a few decent ones but not really special, same goes for Everton. City, well maybe with Dias and Laporte they'll have 2 pretty handy ones if they're lucky and stay fit. Wolves have got one. It's few and far between really, the top clubs' defenders mostly don't even look better than the mid table ones.
I do think they are all suffering from a lack of game time and fitness at the moment though, as well as potentially the lack of a proper break over summer. Bit harsh to judge them on such a weird season, but they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory even before that a lot of them.
Either for whatever reason defenders have just got universally worse over the years, or it‘s to do with the way football has changed.
The majority of defenders in yesteryear never had to play in such taxing defensive systems as the one's today do. The majority of teams played deep/medium lines with one sometimes two DM's Infront of them and there was no serious demand for them to play out. These days they're expected to split across the pitch, play out from the back, while the fullbacks bomb on and not only that the preference for the man Infront tends to be a more DLP type of player than a traditional DM.
An example in reverse would be the wingers, these days they seem to be much more appreciated as the general preference for one up front pushes them closer to goal and allows them to pad up on their end product numbers whereas back in yesteryear even the bonafide world class wingers were lucky if they hit double figures.
An example in reverse would be the wingers, these days they seem to be much more appreciated as the general preference for one up front pushes them closer to goal and allows them to pad up on their end product numbers whereas back in yesteryear even the bonafide world class wingers were lucky if they hit double figures.
Thread title is triggering me.
For me - there has been the modernisation of the attack. Teams can play with target man and have everyone crossing in to him a bit like the old days or you can have false 9's and inverted forwards - most of the times is a mix match of both.
The defense hasnt had that modernising take in full form yet. The inverted fullbacks, the false CB like a false 9 in defense- dropping in from midfield to only to defend and the 2 playmaker CB'S who get protected to play this in a back 3 much as the attack plays in a fluid front 3.
You can see it happening with different managers using bits and pieces of it - but hardly ever has there been a full examples in full flow like the Barcelona/ Messi False 9 days or even the inverted forward abilities of someone like C Ronaldo.
Once that fluid back 3 works like the fluid front 3 did - that would highlight the next coming of the defensive generation.
The defense hasnt had that modernising take in full form yet. The inverted fullbacks, the false CB like a false 9 in defense- dropping in from midfield to only to defend and the 2 playmaker CB'S who get protected to play this in a back 3 much as the attack plays in a fluid front 3.
You can see it happening with different managers using bits and pieces of it - but hardly ever has there been a full examples in full flow like the Barcelona/ Messi False 9 days or even the inverted forward abilities of someone like C Ronaldo.
Once that fluid back 3 works like the fluid front 3 did - that would highlight the next coming of the defensive generation.
I think it's down to the change in football tactics, etc. which has evolved over the years. I recall Ron Atkinson (whose United side I watched and loved) saying Rio Ferdinand was not a "proper" defender like Paul McGrath, when we all know they were both amazing, but Ron's sides simply didn't play their attacking football that way.
I think the change in rules can have a part. Years ago defenders could get away with a lot more than the current generation. You see players getting booked for making a tackle that gets the ball, but also the opponent. Before, things like that were not even a foul. The new handball rule, every contact in the box is a penalty.
I don't think modern CBs are worse. The position is much more demanding than it used to be - not only regarding the build up. The way teams press nowadays there's much more pressure on the CBs. They get exposed more often than it used to be. And when they make mistakes, social media makes sure nobody in the world misses it.
For what it's worth, I think the last 10 years featured some of the best CBs I've seen in my lifetime. Van Dijk, Boateng in his prime, Ramos, Pique in his prime, Thiago Silva are up there with Nesta and co. for me. Bonucci and Hummels also deserve praise for being so great on the ball while still maintaining a world class defensive game. Not quite on the level of the previozs names but still.
For what it's worth, I think the last 10 years featured some of the best CBs I've seen in my lifetime. Van Dijk, Boateng in his prime, Ramos, Pique in his prime, Thiago Silva are up there with Nesta and co. for me. Bonucci and Hummels also deserve praise for being so great on the ball while still maintaining a world class defensive game. Not quite on the level of the previozs names but still.
As many have said previously:
- Defenders can't get away with most the the crap they were doing years ago (thank God).
- Overall teams are much better drilled.
- A top team defender will find himself on 1on1 situations more oftenly due to risk taking and a lot of times will defend away from the penalty area.
- Defenders can't get away with most the the crap they were doing years ago (thank God).
- Overall teams are much better drilled.
- A top team defender will find himself on 1on1 situations more oftenly due to risk taking and a lot of times will defend away from the penalty area.
Football as a whole has moved away from individual brilliance to better organised team play. You don't have many stand out defenders any more but you have much better defensive systems and, more importantly, players who fit those systems. It's harder to see why players like Lindelof are in top teams compared with a tough tackling Stuart Pearce type, but they are there for a reason.
Overall the effect is about the same. The average number of goals in the league hasn't changed much for a long time, despite teams like City putting up ridiculous numbers.
Overall the effect is about the same. The average number of goals in the league hasn't changed much for a long time, despite teams like City putting up ridiculous numbers.
Back in the day you could pretty much get away with being a massive lump, 6ft 4 who could head the ball if you go back far enough.
Some tactics at the top levels of the proffesional game were as simple as 4-4-2 with teams based on wingers who could run to byline and put a cross in.
The game has developed so much more, tactics have become more evolved, more complicated. Added to the fact that defenders aren't protected so much by the ref.
It's not decline of the centre-back, we're just seen the game evolve. One that favours attacking players and I think over time this will continue. Defenders used to wrestle players to the floor and get away with it, with VAR a minor shirt pull is now a foul. When that used to be the norm.
As the game becomes less physical, we'll probably also see centre backs become smaller. Like we already have seen with the attacking players.
Some tactics at the top levels of the proffesional game were as simple as 4-4-2 with teams based on wingers who could run to byline and put a cross in.
The game has developed so much more, tactics have become more evolved, more complicated. Added to the fact that defenders aren't protected so much by the ref.
It's not decline of the centre-back, we're just seen the game evolve. One that favours attacking players and I think over time this will continue. Defenders used to wrestle players to the floor and get away with it, with VAR a minor shirt pull is now a foul. When that used to be the norm.
As the game becomes less physical, we'll probably also see centre backs become smaller. Like we already have seen with the attacking players.
Was thinking about this. Defending in the classical sense seems to be a dying art. Just look at the goals conceded in these few games.
Much to the games detriment I feel
Yeah I tend to agree. Defenders are seen as needing to be good ball players first and good defenders second now which I think is the wrong way around entirely. I'd much rather have a tough, no nonsense strong defender who is ok on the ball than a really good ball playing defender who is a bit weak and prone to errors.
that's bait. Don't fall for it
They are currently (unless you play for Hodgson) needed to be able to play 1v1 and 2v2 against agile/physical attackers...
Like VVD, Joe Gomez, David Alaba, Boateng, Ake or Rio back in the day.
You must be a kid who only knows his football by playing video games.
So the only way to reply in a way you understand.
FIFA 06 pace ratings
90 - Rio Ferdinand
87 - Sol Campbell
It seems like everybody understands that the defenders have a more complex task today than 10 years ago, but I am not sure what people mean when they say "Players are worse at actual defending today than ten years ago". What does that even mean?
PL 2009/10: 1053 goals scored
PL 2010/11: 1063 goals scored
PL 2011/12: 1066 goals scored
PL 2019/20: 1034 goals scored
PL 2009/10: 1053 goals scored
PL 2010/11: 1063 goals scored
PL 2011/12: 1066 goals scored
PL 2019/20: 1034 goals scored
Might want to have a look at the serie A goalscorers of 10-15 years ago
And consider that almost half his goals last season were penalties
To be fair, Terry, Vidic, Ferdinand, and Vidic etc. had better partners. They were world-class defenders, but they were partnered by other world-class defenders: Carvalho and Vidic. This would have made them look even better.
Van Dijk doesn't have that; Gomes is good, but he is not on Van Dijk's level.
Top class defenders are more scarce than they used to be. You could think of quite a lot even ten years ago, but now? Van Dijk, but who else really?
Something has definitely changed as Italy and England consistently produced top-class defenders, but now they have nobody of note or anyone upcoming.
After watching some documentaries of legendary offensive players of the past like Maradonna, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge and Van Basten, I've realized the defenders of those days weren't as mistake free as we like to think today.
it's not necessarily a decline in talent but it's just a much harder job these days than it was back then. As a centre back you now have to deal with strikers pressing you because your manager doesn't want you to hoof it by default. This also means you have to learn to pass and also maintain a high line, the latter which is crazy hard since you are also, pun intended, the last line.
That's a good point re the physical aspect of the game possibly leading to smaller centre backs. we probably seen a version of that somewhat when Cannavero led Italy to 2006 world cup, he was 5 ft 9 or something like that. Incredible to think of a world class centre half as small as that. Maybe we will see more of this,as we see more top teams employ fast tricky forwards as opposed to the old fashioned target man. Ball playing centre backs have always been about, back in the day we had the likes of Buchan and at Liverpool they had Hansen. I think the change now is, back then it was a bonus if your central defender was comfortable on the ball, whereas now it's almost a necessity, as it is for full backs and even keepers now. The Brighton game was a case in point, I remember a couple of seasons ago down there at Brighton Lindelof getting completely dominated by Glen Murray, who bullied him for 90 mins like he was a wee boy. In that game Brighton hit Murray with long balls, he was too strong in the air, too physical for Lindelof, now we see Brighton as a footballing team, knocking the ball around comfortably. Same with Leeds, the days of these promoted teams coming up with a big bruising centre forward seems to be diminishing. This will never totally go away but definitely positive to see.
Its something that inevitably happens. A players weaknesses/inconsistencies/mistakes get ignored and brushed aside when they retire and you only remember their dominant bits when they're retired. Which is fine, but something especially noteworthy with De Gea when everyone rips into him. Schmeichel and Van der Sar weren't perfect their whole careers here, just like De Gea hasn't been. Rio had some shocking moments, same with Vidic. Mistakes happen. Don't think players like Van Dijk, Ramos etc are on a lower level than the top CBs of 10-15 years ago.
High defensive lines, FBs playing as wingers, modern aggressive (counter-) pressing, stricter refereeing, VAR, higher attacking tempo and fluidity. It's the CBs who ended up paying the bill for all that progress. It's insane to think that somehow everything got better but no one can produce CBs as good as yesteryear.
I suspect defensive midfielders with excellent skills on the ball might switch at a young age to a sweeper position in the future as the position continues to evolve. The entire team is playing closer up the field nowadays and the CB role is melding with the box to box midfielders. Who are some modern CBs that are already stepping in this direction? Van Dijk?
It's fun to see those, but they just won't work well in most top teams now. Apart from pressing, these teams focus primarily on possession. That doesn't work if you have a defender who can't deal with being pressed and hence has to hoof it often, resulting in percentage balls that often are lost to the team. Therefore, teams want defenders that can play the ball while under pressure - and we're back where we were in this thread.
That's probably also true, but someone like Nesta already during his playing days was hailed as a Rolls-Royce of a defender, who's just extremely good and reliable. You don't see that about defenders quite as often now - but then you never read that Nesta was good on the ball back then either.
Even Italy is no longer producing top quality centre backs.
Anecdotally I imagine that the decline in quality centre backs comes from academies prioritising different players over the past decade.
10 years ago Pep's Barcelona was approaching it's apex and Spain was European and World Champion. Academies looking at that may have decided that the classical centre back traits weren't important: ball players and system players should be prioritized. Now we are seeing the fruits of that.
Anecdotally I imagine that the decline in quality centre backs comes from academies prioritising different players over the past decade.
10 years ago Pep's Barcelona was approaching it's apex and Spain was European and World Champion. Academies looking at that may have decided that the classical centre back traits weren't important: ball players and system players should be prioritized. Now we are seeing the fruits of that.
The way teams are setting up 532 shows the change to an extent. Defenders are pressured a lot more and not able to get away with half the shit they used to. Managers seem to feel a greater need to protect the back line, which I guess has also benefitted the evolution of the wing back role.
I'm happy defenders aren't as good at defending. Means more goals and more excitement. Long may it continue.
Thanks for this breakdown. And yeah the bolded is nonsense talk from people nostalgic for lump it up, 'ave it!, Brexit football. Top managers recognize that you need 10-11 players to be participants in all phases of the game, both defending and attacking. The setups that enable this are more prone to occasional gaffes and brain farts (Liverpool against Leeds, City against Leicester), however overall you will be able to get more results out of said teams, both in terms of goals scored and conceded.
I think there are less defenders in the mould of Nesta and Rio and co, however the defensive systems and schemes (to borrow terminology from this side of the pond) are better which can accommodate defenders that are more well rounded and essential to stuff like playing a high line, being reliable outlets against the press, initiating attacking moves and so on.
the way I see it is that the DM can totally transform the defensive dynamic. Now obviously the most effective teams all defend - look at Liverpool who literally run the most and their midfielders effectively take it in turns to defend the back 4
But then you have the great teams like Barcelona who have had busquests and or mascherano, city - Fernandinho- what a player. Then there is kante, Verrati and in my opinion Neves.
All of these players have the ability to keep possession in tight situations and can distribute and have great understanding of positioning so they probably have made centre backs look better than what they would be.
However the central defenders must compliment the qualities of the DM. If your DM is more of a playmaker who collects from the back and lacks pace or great ball winning skills then you need at least one out and out defender with pace
At United unfortunately we have neither
I think CBs are better now because of the demands that are placed upon them to play high up the pitch in isolation which requires the modern CB to resist/enforce high pressure and defend space high up the pitch.
Unless you adopt a reactive style I can't see many legends from the past being effective under a coach today who favours high pressure, fast transitions.
Unless you adopt a reactive style I can't see many legends from the past being effective under a coach today who favours high pressure, fast transitions.
It's nonsense. People always think back in the day everything was better. Defenders fecked up 10 years ago just like they do now. Maradonna didn't always play 10/10 games but people only remember the good stuff. Especially in our case since we suck these days.
It's the way they are trained. There's a few good old-fashioned ones but they are not valued, thus, do not end up in the top clubs.
They're just not as strong as they once were. The thing about different demands in the modern game, sure, but the thing about the old ones not needing to play from the back and being oafs with the ball: plain revisionist bullshit.
A 27 year Jaap Stam or a 30 year old Baresi would completely dominate the game today.
They're just not as strong as they once were. The thing about different demands in the modern game, sure, but the thing about the old ones not needing to play from the back and being oafs with the ball: plain revisionist bullshit.
A 27 year Jaap Stam or a 30 year old Baresi would completely dominate the game today.
Italy are producing nothing anymore it pains to see me such a great footballing nation decline so much.