The Decline of FC Barcelona?

[Buchan]

Off the top of my head there are no less than a dozen kids who are players to be very excited about within 3-4 years of the first team

If you wouldn't mind, could you mention them here? I'm aware of Thiago, Tello, Montoya, Bartra, Cuenca, Deleufeu and Rafinha, but not about anybody else.

For what it's worth, I don't see any of them replicating the Messi/Pique/Fabregas era, but you never know. Even saying that, Pique and Fabregas have been poor this season and haven't hit the heights expected of them. Tello has been playing well recently and deserves more playing time. Time will tell if he's going to be another Pedro (successful Barcelona career) or Bojan (who ultimately never lived up to the hype.)

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Messi is a once in a generation player, perhaps even longer. So no, there is no one of his ilk at La Masia but there's no one like that at any club, anywhere.

There are, however, several promising talents that fans who follow the club are very excited about which always makes the commentary that there will be a decline all the more amusing. When some of the stars like Xavi, Puyol et al retire, it will alter the complexion of the team, obviously. But they've been playing this way for decades, so their departure will do nothing to change that. That's the beauty of having a foundation based on the youth teams at the club, there are always more kids maturing in the system. Some will be stars and others will not.

Off the top of my head there are no less than a dozen kids who are players to be very excited about within 3-4 years of the first team

You're quite right and no doubt there are players to be excited about just as there at Utd right now.But you did hit the nail on the head when you mentioned Messi being a once in a generation player, i would go as far as saying 2 generations really.

However it simply can't be ignored that he's the jewel in a special crown and the one that makes it even more remarkable than the rest, and will be as long as that jewel remains there.

I don't genuinely believe Barca are in decline and only their haters and the fatuous would believe that. You know as I do that over the years Barca have always had some of the greatest players in history yet patently failed to dominate despite that even though they should have. So in reality that future domination depends on the mentality of the coach and the team in general

 

[FortBoyard]

Messi is an outlier, the greatest ever quite possibly. As long as Barca have Messi at his peak they will be the best team in Europe, without him they'd be in an interchangeable top 3 or 4.

Surely that is it in a nutshell?

 

[FCBarca]

Absolutely and the sort of legacy a player like Leo or Rivaldo can cut for the club pays dividends, globally, as well. Right now there are little kids cultivating dreams to perhaps one day play for Barcelona - like my 8 year old nephew

Kids grew up wanting to be Zizou, Laudrup, Cruyff, Maradona, Ronnie, Ronaldo, Romario etc., they'll do similar about Iniesta & Messi I'm sure. Some of the cantera kids get poached away before they fully mature while others bide their time to realize their dream, like Deulofeu who has had Premiership clubs lurking since he was 13.

I hope for similar from Lee Seung Woo whose status at the club has been called into question by FIFA

And I mentioned this earlier here or in another thread but Pep's 6 title season can't be topped. It can be matched but it will take a special side to do that.

Messi is an outlier, the greatest ever quite possibly. As long as Barca have Messi at his peak they will be the best team in Europe, without him they'd be in an interchangeable top 3 or 4.

Surely that is it in a nutshell?

That's what some of us fans enjoy about pre-season or Copa Del Rey when Leo doesn't play. Get a glimpse of seeing what it's like to play without him and see who will step up

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Messi is an outlier, the greatest ever quite possibly. As long as Barca have Messi at his peak they will be the best team in Europe, without him they'd be in an interchangeable top 3 or 4.

Surely that is it in a nutshell?

Not really. Barca had Maradona,Ronaldo,Romario,Ronaldinho at one time or another; all amazing players but they failed to dominate the way the are at the moment for all kinds of reasons. They could dominate again but not hit the heights of playing style

It's very complex

 

[Shark]

Messi is a once in a generation player, perhaps even longer. So no, there is no one of his ilk at La Masia but there's no one like that at any club, anywhere.

There are, however, several promising talents that fans who follow the club are very excited about which always makes the commentary that there will be a decline all the more amusing. When some of the stars like Xavi, Puyol et al retire, it will alter the complexion of the team, obviously. But they've been playing this way for decades, so their departure will do nothing to change that. That's the beauty of having a foundation based on the youth teams at the club, there are always more kids maturing in the system. Some will be stars and others will not.

Off the top of my head there are no less than a dozen kids who are players to be very excited about within 3-4 years of the first team

So you think that Xavi retiring will just change the complexion of the team? I think that you're going to be in for a big surprise in that case. Just because a few youth players play a similar style to Xavi, doesn't mean that they have a hope of replacing him. I understand that the there's a Barca way of playing and it's injected into the youth, but replacing a player like Xavi is still bordering impossible.

 

[FCBarca]

So you think that Xavi leaving will just change the complexion of the team? I think that you're going to be in for a big surprise in that case. Just because a few youth players play a similar style to Xavi, doesn't mean that he'll replace him. I understand that the there's a Barca way of playing and it's injected into the youth, but replacing a player like Xavi is still bordering impossible.

I'm saying the team will continue to play the same way and someone will step up in his absence. Just as Xavi did when Pep left the club. But absolutely, it will never be quite the same without Xavi - he's pretty unique in today's game, for me. The team is never quite as good without him as they are with him, running the show.

I still recall the Euro 2012 Final when everyone was riding the Pirlo bandwagon and citing Xavi as being past it. That was a masterclass performance all around but you could tell Xavi was giving a lesson to the naysayers.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

So you think that Xavi retiring will just change the complexion of the team? I think that you're going to be in for a big surprise in that case. Just because a few youth players play a similar style to Xavi, doesn't mean that he'll replace him. I understand that the there's a Barca way of playing and it's injected into the youth, but replacing a player like Xavi is still bordering impossible. I don't even see Fabregas getting close, but then again, he's a different type of player.

You're entitled to your opinion but we'll have to wait and see. Players like Xavi and Iniesta may be hard to replace but they certainly aren't impossible.You have to remember that Barca can draw the talents from all over Spain before we even get to the rest of the world.

Who knows what's out there in terms of talent.

 

[kouroux]

Xavi and Iniesta are the sort of irreplacable players from an individual POV but that doesn't mean Barca will not find a way to keep competiting for the biggest trophies when they retire.When Ronaldo left United, there were these constant "where will the goals come from ? Who will step up ?" questions before the season started.Big teams lose great players but they still stay big and competitive, they adapt

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Xavi and Iniesta are the sort of irreplacable players from an individual POV but that doesn't mean Barca will not find a way to keep competiting for the biggest trophies when they retire.When Ronaldo left United, there were these constant "where will the goals come from ? Who will step up ?" questions before the season started.Big teams lose great players but they still stay big and competitive, they adapt

I'm not sure that's the best comparison

We really don't have a game breaker in the same mould...no disrespect to RVP


We're competitive without really looking dominant (PL apart which has been in large part down to the faliure of Chelsea and City to capitalise)

 

[kouroux]

I'm not sure that's the best comparison

We really don't have a game breaker in the same mould...no disrespect to RVP


We're competitive without really looking dominant (PL apart which has been in large part down to the faliure of Chelsea and City to capitalise)

I didn't mean it as a direct comparison obviously Inigo, I'm not that retarded come on ! Just that losing very big players can be initially seen as a loss and in a way it is but it doesn't mean the club stops being competitive.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I didn't mean it as a direct comparison obviously Inigo, I'm not that retarded come on ! Just that losing very big players can be initially seen as a loss and in a way it is but it doesn't mean the club stops being competitive.

I know mate, didn't mean it that way. I agree and I did say the very same (post back) that Barca may dominate without ever hitting the heights in playing style

 

[Buchan]

Xavi and Iniesta are the sort of irreplacable players from an individual POV but that doesn't mean Barca will not find a way to keep competiting for the biggest trophies when they retire.When Ronaldo left United, there were these constant "where will the goals come from ? Who will step up ?" questions before the season started.Big teams lose great players but they still stay big and competitive, they adapt

Very fair point, mate. I suppose we should appreciate that more than any club side in the world as we've been met with the same criticisms for years - "Who's going to replace Robson/Cantona/Beckham/van Nistelrooy/Keane/Ronaldo?" etc. United fans have always been optimistic though because, a) we have a solid manager who's in total charge of all team affairs and has been successful for a sustained period of time, and b) because of our success in the transfer market.

There are question marks over both at Barcelona right now I think it's fair to say.

 

[Shark]

I don't think that anybody is doubting Barca's ability to stay competitive when Xavi retires to be honest. However, to say that somebody from they're youth academy will just magically step up to the plate is slightly delusional or a case of drastically underrating Xavi as a player.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Very fair point, mate. I suppose we should appreciate that more than any club side in the world as we've been met with the same criticisms for years - "Who's going to replace Robson/Cantona/Beckham/van Nistelrooy/Keane/Ronaldo?" etc. United fans have always been optimistic though because, a) we have a solid manager who's in total charge of all team affairs and has been in charge for a long time, and b) because of our success in the transfer market. There are question marks over both at Barcelona right now I think it's fair to say.

Question marks from whom?

Historically perhaps but they've learned from mistakes and Barca can have every reason to be optimistic.

As for us the real test will come when SAF retires so while we can be optimistic there's always the apprehension

 

[kouroux]

Very fair point, mate. I suppose we should appreciate that more than any club side in the world as we've been met with the same criticisms for years - "Who's going to replace Robson/Cantona/Beckham/van Nistelrooy/Keane/Ronaldo?" etc. United fans have always been optimistic though because, a) we have a solid manager who's in total charge of all team affairs and has been in charge for a long time, and b) because of our success in the transfer market. There are question marks over both at Barcelona right now I think it's fair to say.

I agree with that.I think just like it would be madness from United not to buy a midfielder(s), it'd be the same if Barca don't buy some quality defensive players.Abidal is back but maybe it'll be like Fletcher, a player who can never go back to his best.They need to buy a CB or start trusting their youngsters there.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I don't think that anybody is doubting Barca's ability to stay competitive when Xavi retires to be honest. However, to say that somebody from they're youth academy will just magically step up to the plate is slightly delusional or a case of drastically underrating Xavi as a player.

Xavi and Iniesta didn't magically materialise.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I agree with that.I think just like it would be madness from United not to buy a midfielder(s), it'd be the same if Barca don't buy some quality defensive players.Abidal is back but maybe it'll be like Fletcher, a player who can never go back to his best.They need to buy a CB or start trusting their youngsters there.

Think that's a bigger key than most realise

 

[Buchan]

Question marks from whom?

Historically perhaps but they've learned from mistakes and Barca can have every reason to be optimistic.

As for us the real test will come when SAF retires so while we can be optimistic there's always the apprehension

Question marks from those who actually watch football and form their own opinions rather than listen to clichéd-shite from the media.

As for their abject transfer record in the past six years, these are the following who've been signed for upwards of €10 million (see how many have had a sustained impact on the first team): Zambrotta, Gudjohnsen, Henry, Gabriel Milito, Abidal, Hleb, Caceres, Dani Alves, Keita, Chrygynskiy, Ibrahimovic, Keirrison, Mascherano, Villa, Adriano, Fabregas, Sanchez, Song and Alba.

Even the most ardent Barcelona supporter would find it hard to justify that incredible outlay on that list of players. I can think of no more than five of that list of players as being successful (Henry, Abidal, Alves, Villa and Alba), with the jury undecided on three more (Keita, Mascherano and Fabregas). Hardly inspiring, it has to be said.

With La Masia's incredible success rate in recent years bolstering and cementing Barcelona's on-field success, it's scary to see how Barcelona may fare should their youth system pack in for a few years as their transfer record is quite shocking.

 

[Skorenzy]

Question marks from those who actually watch football and form their own opinions rather than listen to clichéd-shite from the media.

As for their abject transfer record in the past six years, these are the following who've been signed for upwards of €10 million (see how many have had a sustained impact on the first team): Zambrotta, Gudjohnsen, Henry, Gabriel Milito, Abidal, Hleb, Caceres, Dani Alves, Keita, Chrygynskiy, Ibrahimovic, Keirrison, Mascherano, Villa, Adriano, Fabregas, Sanchez, Song and Alba.

Even the most ardent Barcelona supporter would find it hard to justify that incredible outlay on that list of players. I can think of no more than five of that list of players as being successful (Henry, Abidal, Alves, Villa and Alba), with the jury undecided on three more (Keita, Mascherano and Fabregas). Hardly inspiring, it has to be said.

With La Masia's incredible success rate in recent years bolstering and cementing Barcelona's on-field success, it's scary to see how Barcelona may fare should their youth system pack in for a few years as their transfer record is quite shocking.

I don't think you'll find many Barcelona fans who wouldn't rate Keita and Mascherano as successful signings. Both were/are essential squad players who performed well in the majority of their Barça career.

Keita made 233 apps for Barça in 4 seasons, an average of over 50 per season. Mascherano 135 apps in his 3rd season so far, but probably many more starts than Keita. Don't think he's been as poor defensively as often made out, obviously his weakness is in the air but he fits quite well within Barcelona's system IMO, as well as can be expected from what was supposed to be a squad player but has turned into a starter due to Puyol's decline/injuries.

Jury is still out on Fàbregas, I agree with, and maybe even Sánchez; although it'll require an outrageous finish to the season from him to change perception, I think he's a good fit tactically and offers a lot off the ball, it's just that he's been disappointing when he's on the ball.

 

[Buchan]

Are we watching Barcelona or Stoke?

*EDIT: Huge coincidence, just as I click "Post", Barcelona go 0-1 down. Game on now...

 

[Brwned]

They'll say we're Barca-haters () and it's just because of a couple of missing players but that's ignoring the fact that Xavi's simply not at the level he once was and they're not dominating as they used to. Plus it looks like a few years of that incredible pressing game has really taken its toll and they're just not capable of it any more.

 

[Buchan]

To be honest, regardless of the result tonight, I am not buying it from those that say this Barcelona side are as good as previous ones. A blind man could see that's not the case.

Messi and Iniesta have been digging them out of holes with two years now. In Messi's absence, they have no goal threat. Their defence is a shambles. All-in-all, they are not the polished diamond they once were.

 

[Spoony]

They'll say we're Barca-haters () and it's just because of a couple of missing players but that's ignoring the fact that Xavi's simply not at the level he once was and they're not dominating as they used to. Plus it looks like a few years of that incredible pressing game has really taken its toll and they're just not capable of it any more.

You can see why PG called it quits. They're just near the end of a cycle. Rarely do teams dominate for more than 3 seasons.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

They've not been the same since Torres scored against them!

 

[Aboutreika18]

You can see why PG called it quits. They're just near the end of a cycle. Rarely do teams dominate for more than 3 seasons.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jan/10/three-year-rule-barcelona

The old Guttman principle.

 

[Godfather]

Can't wait for their fall.

 

[Buchan]

Messi yet again to the rescue. What a player he is.

I think it is a shocking indictment of the rest of them when he's their game-changer and he's only half-fit.

 

[kouroux]

This thread is even funnier now Some decline eh ?

 

[Carl]

Messi made such a massive difference to absolutely everything from their style of play to the atmosphere in the ground. Paris were comfortable at 0-1 until he came on.

 

[Sixpence]

As long as Messi is fit, they'll still win the CL, said it after the first leg against Milan where they lost 2-0.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Any team with Messi in it is lethal, Xavi and Iniesta don't seem the same players they were a couple of years ago. Which is understandable. Their defence is fairly average. They might find it hard to beat Bayern over two legs if they were to draw them.
Can't be the best forever.

 

[Striker10]

I think that psg did well because they've been able to buy quality players. We should be aware not to write players off seeing as a lot of us did with Giggs down the years etc. They'll get to the final in all probability but they'll be stronger next year. I don't think they'll care much about performances.

Trying to analyse football is very difficult. No one would say our team is the best ever Under Sir Alex, however our league results this season have been right up there even if performance wise, we've not been our best

 

[Buchan]

This thread is even funnier now Some decline eh ?

Regale us with the swathes of evidence that debunks this theory so.

If you think tonight was evidence that they are as good as ever, I'm not sure you were watching the game. The Barcelona of old would have swatted PSG aside with the minimum of fuss and ran out convincing winners. Tonight also backs up a lot of posters' thoughts regarding Barcelona without Messi.

 

[bosnian_red]

Today makes it as clear as ever that they are so clearly in decline. Go back to 2009 or 2011 and no way were they as reliant on Messi to even make a chance as they are these days. It's a testament to how good he is of course, but it is also laughable to suggest that they are as good as they were during the Pep era. Not sure why people would suggest they'll get better because Xavi doesn't have long left, and Iniesta is getting older as well. That in itself is all that's needed to say they're in decline, from best team ever to just one of the top teams around Europe.

 

[Carl]

This thread is even funnier now Some decline eh ?

They're still an amazing side but if you don't think they've declined in the last 2 years you're talking out of your hat.

 

[20solskjaer]

As long as Messi is fit, they'll still win the CL, said it after the first leg against Milan where they lost 2-0.

Really? Was he injured for last seasons champions league then? I takes more than messi to win it, its not enough to just have messi when players around him are in various stages of decline, out of form or just not on the same level, do you think they'd have found it as easy tonight had they been playing bayern? I doubt it

 

[KiD MoYeS]

The fact they couldn't beat PSG over two games says something, they're not as good, but with Messi they're still brilliant.

 

[Treble]

Still the best team in the world.

 

[Godfather]

The fact they couldn't beat PSG over two games says something, they're not as good, but with Messi they're still brilliant.

That PSG team isnt half bad though. especially against good teams. I wouldnt bet on us against them.