The Disgusting Hypocrisy of Sky Sports and the Premier League

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
Well it is nonsense when you said the majority have stayed the course and now contradicted that statement in your own post.

Regardless of that the point is that football has never really been a fair playing field for a variety of reasons. Teams have always had periods of domination. This might shock you but Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and even Everton were rather a big deal before the PL ever came along.

Granted, the money from the PL has made it more uneven but this idea of football utopia has never existed and is entirely different from the idea of a closed shop 'league'.

The way some on here are talking we might as well hand our PL titles back as they weren't won on a 'level playing field'.
Mate, I'm an auld fart... I'm fully aware of what life was pre premier league.

In its opening 12 seasons United and Arsenal won it 11 times with only Walkers millions breaking the trend. Isn't that a closed shop?
In 28 seasons only 7 clubs have won it and of those 7 clubs 2 of them have only managed to win it once (Rovers and Liverpool). Hardly scream competitive does it?

The clubs now are just being blunt about it and giving a serious feck off to UEFA is all.

It's the same across Europes top leagues and European competitions.

The last time a team outside the top 4 leagues in Europe (England, Spain, Germany and Italy) won the champions league was Jose's Porto I think, stand to be corrected. Prior to that it was LVG's Ajax as far as my memory can tell.

How on earth is that not a closed shop European competition? Two clubs breaking the mold in 30 years nearly.

Bayern largely have a monopoly on Germany, Dortmund break it every now and again.
Real and Barca is by an large a two horse race annually, Athletico pop up every now and then.
Italy, Juve have dominated for a long period of time.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,500
Location
London
@Lentwood
a lot to digest. But yeah I mean sky and the Pl are hypocritical to an extent sure. And you start off talking about that.

But to be honest you sort of just delve into
a passage about lack of competition, as the same teams are dominating, qualifying for the CL and not being relegated, which was all a bit moot. None of this is a by product of the Pl or Sky. It is literally how sports work.

Unless you put in a draft system like the Americans you will always have teams more successful and more dominating teams than others.
There was no Sky in the 70’s and 80’s when Liverpool and Everton were dominating.

As for relegation, that’s a bizarre one to mention, considering clubs such as the following have gone down since the Pl began

West Ham
Leicester
Leeds
Newcastle
Forest
Sheff Wed
Villa
Wolves
Blackburn

You will not find another league in the world where clubs of that size are routinely relegated from it’s top division. Teams with European cups to their name. We’ve had teams like Burnley, Swansea, Bournemouth, Watford get promoted and stay in the PL for a number of years literally because of the current system.
As for CL qualification, again have a look at other leagues and you will see their numbers are the same if not less.

Noticed you mentioned how Derby and forest couldn’t get back in either. That is all their own doing. Both those clubs had massive investment over the years due to their size and history but repeatedly fecked up getting promoted and now sit near the relegation zone. Absolutely nothing to do with Sky and the Premier League.

And back to Sky, now as someone who has criticised them for their pricing etc in the past and is very aware they’re hardly saints.
If you actually look at what they’ve provided for football over the years they’ve been a necessary and good part of football.

Football was never free to watch on tv in the 70’s and 80’s. It wasn’t even on the tv a lot of the times. You literally had to go to games to watch. You had no other option. Lots of people didn’t want to go because of many issues, hooliganism, poor grounds, racism, inconvenience.

You can argue day and night about their pricing but they literally began the whole live football phenomena which has seen eventually seen football brought to everyone around the globe.
How many foreign fans do we have on this site? How do they all get to watch United? Live coverage.....

Unfortunately we live in a business world and back in the day whilst you could watch ALL FOOTBALL on sky. You had all these other companies wanting a piece of the pie. Bt, Amazon, etc all decided they wanted it. This is where IMO the PL should have stepped in and said no. Keep it all on one platform. They didn’t and they were cnuts for it.

I agree with your last paragraph. Stockpiling talent, mass loans, salary and transfer caps all need to be looked into and the PL need to pull their finger out and sort this. They did cap away tickets which was good.

Claiming sky and the Pl are responsible for what we see now is fine but then I’d ask what about the actual players? Surely they are partly to blame too for their astronomical wage demands? Their parasite agents have caused sky rocketing wages. Clubs then hike the price of tickets and jerseys etc. Surely that is the link and not sky who basically just pay for a tv package.....
Clubs don’t pay sky. Sky pay the Pl who pay clubs. Clubs pay players and clubs demand fees for tickets and merchandise.
 

drdoityourself

Full Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
2,394
Not really.

We've seen Sheff have a go but down they go again, but wait and see...they'll have the advantage over the majority of other championship sides and will likely bounce right back. Norwich, WBA are what you term Yo-Yo clubs now... Watford & Bournemouth are two others.

There are currently 3 teams at the top end of the Championship that can bounce right back into the premier league this season... but I've members here telling me there is no gap and no benefit of having Premier league investment......

The evidence is there in what I am saying.
Norwich sold players for 40 million pounds this summer and bought for 10. Spent close to nothing when they were up last season. They are just a well run club with a very good director of football and a good coach and have built a consistent style that the sides in the Championship can't handle. They are far from the biggest spenders in the Championship and never have been.
 

Guy Incognito

Full Member
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
17,813
Location
Somewhere
Sky may have improved the match day experience but the ludicrous kick-off times. The hype and guff. Turning it into a PPV experience. The lack of probing whenever an owner buys a club even when they are successful.

It is not mutually exclusive to suggest Sky are hypocrites who should be pulled up and this ESL is a terrible idea.
 

Alex99

Rehab's Pete Doherty
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
15,944
@Keefy18

You said" "very few" of the original PL clubs had even had to face relegation. 16 of those clubs have been relegated from the PL, and 10 currently play outside of it. You're now shifting your own narrative to "11 [12] of the originals play in the PL this season."

You look through any league (at least the top leagues) and you'll see the same clubs bouncing between divisions and the same clubs at the top of the divisions, because that's just how sport is.

As for closed shops, since the creation of the PL, England has had seven different domestic champions. In that time, Spain has had five, Italy five, and Germany six.
 

CassiusClaymore

Is it Gaizka Mendieta?
Scout
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
35,898
Location
None of your business mate
Supports
The greatest team in history
Mate, I'm an auld fart... I'm fully aware of what life was pre premier league.

In its opening 12 seasons United and Arsenal won it 11 times with only Walkers millions breaking the trend. Isn't that a closed shop?
In 28 seasons only 7 clubs have won it and of those 7 clubs 2 of them have only managed to win it once (Rovers and Liverpool). Hardly scream competitive does it?

The clubs now are just being blunt about it and giving a serious feck off to UEFA is all.

It's the same across Europes top leagues and European competitions.

The last time a team outside the top 4 leagues in Europe (England, Spain, Germany and Italy) won the champions league was Jose's Porto I think, stand to be corrected. Prior to that it was LVG's Ajax as far as my memory can tell.

How on earth is that not a closed shop European competition? Two clubs breaking the mold in 30 years nearly.

Bayern largely have a monopoly on Germany, Dortmund break it every now and again.
Real and Barca is by an large a two horse race annually, Athletico pop up every now and then.
Italy, Juve have dominated for a long period of time.
So what do you want exactly. A different club to win the league every season?

Feel free to disagree but imo football lost control when they allowed billionaires to start owning clubs but I remember plenty at the time saying "this is great, finally some competition".

Football is not and has never been a game about equals. Too many the romance is in the David v Goliath aspect.

Just seen that Chelsea have bottled it now so this seems moot. They don't need the money. Neither do City. Was inevitable they'd shit the bed.
 

Alex99

Rehab's Pete Doherty
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
15,944
So what do you want exactly. A different club to win the league every season?
He's chatting bollocks with his "closed shop" nonsense RE the PL. The top 4 leagues in Europe are the PL, La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga. There have been more PL winners since 92/93 than winners of the other leagues. He's already shifted from "very few original PL teams have faced relegation" because that's objectively false, and now he's on about the number of winners, as if we haven't seen Real Madrid and Barca trading La Liga bar a brief hiccup in the late 90s/early 00s where Valencia and Deportivo picked up titles, and Altetico bucking the trend once. As if we haven't seen Bayern absolutely romp through Germany year after year, and the same with Juventus in Italy.
 

The Mitcher

connoisseur of pot noodles and sandwiches
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
19,603
Location
Manchester
Why do people think greed was only a recent plague on football, one we can definitely date back to the early 1990s? When there has ALWAYS been sugar daddy's, always been greedy owners and clubs, teams who earn more than others taking the spoils. It was only 110 years ago that this club was labelled money bags united as we bought players like Meredith and had the best manager, Ernest Mangnall, to win our first league titles. You can probably find more teams after us, and before, labelled that. This is nothing new, it's never going to go away, only the form that it may take. Unlike in those days, where there was a legitimate free market where these rich teams could end up bankrupt and down on their luck, we have teams like City, Real Madrid and Barcelona who are state financed, and teams like Chelsea who are owned by billionaire owners who are set for life (Abramovich is an oil-tycoon), they are in leagues and organisations that bend over backwards to make sure they never go down, never go bankrupt and retain their dominance. Rather than let them go the way Rangers did or AC Milan and Inter nearly did.
 

CassiusClaymore

Is it Gaizka Mendieta?
Scout
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
35,898
Location
None of your business mate
Supports
The greatest team in history
Why do people think greed was only a recent plague on football, one we can definitely date back to the early 1990s? When there has ALWAYS been sugar daddy's, always been greedy owners and clubs, teams who earn more than others taking the spoils. It was only 110 years ago that this club was labelled money bags united as we bought players like Meredith and had the best manager, Ernest Mangnall, to win our first league titles. You can probably find more teams after us, and before, labelled that. This is nothing new, it's never going to go away, only the form that it may take. Unlike in those days, where there was a legitimate free market where these rich teams could end up bankrupt and down on their luck, we have teams like City, Real Madrid and Barcelona who are state financed, and teams like Chelsea who are owned by billionaire owners who are set for life (Abramovich is an oil-tycoon), they are in leagues and organisations that bend over backwards to make sure they never go down, never go bankrupt and retain their dominance. Rather than let them go the way Rangers did or AC Milan and Inter nearly did.
Exactly.
 

Lentwood

Full Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
6,840
Location
West Didsbury, Manchester
Some people really misunderstand the point of this thread. There is no comparison, or justification for the super league. The point is Sky and the PL objective is stopping the ESL, but our objective must be reforming football in England completely. Otherwise, the whole process of stopping the ESL is just delaying the evitable.
Correct. Pretending everything was great beforehand is partly what got us into this mess.

Hopefully this is a massive wake-up call
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
@Keefy18

You said" "very few" of the original PL clubs had even had to face relegation. 16 of those clubs have been relegated from the PL, and 10 currently play outside of it. You're now shifting your own narrative to "11 [12] of the originals play in the PL this season."

You look through any league (at least the top leagues) and you'll see the same clubs bouncing between divisions and the same clubs at the top of the divisions, because that's just how sport is.

As for closed shops, since the creation of the PL, England has had seven different domestic champions. In that time, Spain has had five, Italy five, and Germany six.
Very few have faced up to relegation and those that actually have been relegated have often bounced right back.

When the league went to 20 it only got less competitive and the gap widened.

Again, I've given examples of Norwich, Fulham and WBA happening a few times.

If you look at the current Championship table, 3 of the top 5 spots are occupied by teams just relegated a few months back... it isn't a coincidence.

It is because of the pay gap that was created with the PL inception and the continual pay gap widening.
 

crossy1686

career ending
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
31,751
Location
Manchester/Stockholm
It's all about money at the end of the day and I found it very rich that Sky played the heritage and history card this weekend when football didn't exist before 92 according to them
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
7,666
All over Europe the same team has won the league 6/7/8 years in a row. City are close to doing that in the Premier League if we are not careful. The monopoly is already in Europe.

I find the outrage absolutely hilarious to be honest. Sky, UEFA, The FA, the Premier League do not give a shit about fan opinion. They were concerned about their revenue stream and I find it amazing how so many fans are completely blind to that. Seeing things like ‘well done PSG’ when their Qatari owners have caused the major inflation in the transfer market and why the World Cup is going to Qatar.

I don’t know what the solution is to make the game fair but much could and should have been done by many governing groups. Now when power was going to be taken away from them they have decided to get vocal. Hideous hypocrisy.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
So what do you want exactly. A different club to win the league every season?

Feel free to disagree but imo football lost control when they allowed billionaires to start owning clubs but I remember plenty at the time saying "this is great, finally some competition".

Football is not and has never been a game about equals. Too many the romance is in the David v Goliath aspect.

Just seen that Chelsea have bottled it now so this seems moot. They don't need the money. Neither do City. Was inevitable they'd shit the bed.
Who said I wanted anything?

Simply pointing out that the OP, Lentwood was correct in his sentiments.

Like you say its a moot point regarding the ESL, Still the gap remains domestically.

He's chatting bollocks with his "closed shop" nonsense RE the PL. The top 4 leagues in Europe are the PL, La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga. There have been more PL winners since 92/93 than winners of the other leagues. He's already shifted from "very few original PL teams have faced relegation" because that's objectively false, and now he's on about the number of winners, as if we haven't seen Real Madrid and Barca trading La Liga bar a brief hiccup in the late 90s/early 00s where Valencia and Deportivo picked up titles, and Altetico bucking the trend once. As if we haven't seen Bayern absolutely romp through Germany year after year, and the same with Juventus in Italy.
How eloquently put.

You've just echoed the same sentiment re Europe's top leagues.

I've not argued that there hasn't been more PL winners than in other countries, you've decided to just add that in here now yourself. But that sentiment does indeed prove my point that competition has been stifled considerably on the continent with Spain's big two having a monopoly on their domestic league due to the having their own TV deals and the other 18 clubs getting shafted.

It's not shifting its providing factual evidence to show I've a reasoned point, instead of childish insults you lead out with.

No idea why your attempting to slate me about my opinions on European football I've posted exactly the same that Spain is dominated by the big two, Italy has been dominated by Juventus and Germany largely by Bayern with Dortmund only occasionally causing an upset.

Feel free to continue echoing my exact sentiments and say I'm "chatting bollicks" though.
 
Last edited:

Inigo Montoya

Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
38,543
First and foremost, let me highlight that this IS NOT another thread debating the merits of a European Super League. There are plenty of threads open already where fans can discuss the respective pro's and con's of the proposed breakaway league. I'm not going to offer ANY opinion on the ESL in this thread, the purpose of this thread is solely to talk about the disgusting hypocrisy of Sky Sports and the Premier League.

Now, what am I hoping to achieve by creating this thread? Well, if nothing else, I am finding typing out these words therapeutic! Since the announcement yesterday I have sat and watched with increasing disgust as Sky and the PL have scrambled like they have never scrambled before. Admittedly, I am going to focus my ire predominantly on Sky, mainly because they have led the condemnation of the proposed ESL and because they are owned by one of the world's largest media outlets, which gives them a very large platform from which to shout! However, it's worth noting in all of this that the Premier League have blood on their hands and are as guilty as any party in allowing this to happen.

Being 31, I am too young to remember the breakaway of the Premier League from the Football League, however, by simply Googling old news stories and from chatting to older football fans, the parallels between what happened then and now are striking. Now, granted, before anybody jumps in, this wasn't quite the 'closed shop' that the ESL sounds like it may be. Of course, clubs are relegated from and promoted into the Premier League every season. However, the same concerns were raised at the time about how smaller clubs could hope to survive and what true competition we would be left with if the clubs at the top of the pyramid earned 50 times what the clubs at the bottom earnt. In reality, these fears HAVE been borne out, in the sense that SIX founding clubs have never been relegated from the Premier League. Sure, you can argue it's possible, but in reality, the chances of any of those six actually being relegated is slim to none. Add in the new-money clubs like City (and to a certain extent the likes of Wolves and Leicester under their new ownership) and it's clear that it is becoming increasingly unlikely that any of the 'elite' clubs will be relegated and it is increasingly difficult for promoted clubs to establish themselves in the Premier League. Even the few that do manage to earn promotion and stay in the Premier League for a few seasons seem to scrap tooth and nail between 20th and 10th before eventually being relegated when their luck runs out. Burnley, for example, have done an absolutely outstanding job and have been in the PL for 6/7 season now. However, during this period their highest league finish has been 7th, which is admittedly a remarkable achievement...but is that really 'competition', when we're lauding teams for somehow achieving an 'impossible' 7th-placed finish? Of course, Burnley have recently been bought out by Americans themselves, so ultimately the bit of success they have had as come at the inevitable cost of having their club ripped away from the local community and into the hands of the uber-capitalists who, slowly but surely, will try to take the club away from the fans.

In addition to it becoming increasingly difficult to break into the PL, only SEVEN clubs have won the Premier League in the 30 years the competition has existed. Of those 7, only really Leicester really stand out as a shock, and they themselves have benefitted from foreign investment (though not to the extent of the likes of Blackburn, Chelsea and Manchester City). Perhaps more shockingly (for me) is that only NINE English clubs have ever qualified for/played in the Champions League. What we are left with then, in reality, is three leagues within a league and the illusion of competition. Of the hundred plus professional football teams in England, only 7 have ever won the Premier League and only 9 have ever qualified for the Champions League. Those numbers would be much smaller if you take Abrahamovich out of Chelsea, Jack Walker out of Blackburn, King Power out of Leicester and Sheikh Mansour out of City. So, my point is, by it's very nature, the PL prevents 'real' competition, or at the very least 'organic' competition. You have perhaps three/four teams capable of winning the title, six/seven teams capable of qualifying for the Champions League and the rest are really playing not to get relegated.

In the first 12 years of it's existence, before foreign ownership, Manchester United and Arsenal won the title 11 times, with the other going to Blackburn who were HEAVILY bankrolled by Jack Walker. Does that sound like an 'open' competition? Does that sound like an egalitarian, level-playing field for all? Of course not! It was only when Roman Abrahamovich came along with his ill-gotten billions that that dominance was broken, but even then after 19 years, only four teams had won the Premier League, two of them bankrolled by super rich individuals (turns out not through benevolent love for the game - shock!). So, what the Premier League and Sky Sports had created was a competition which is was basically only possible to win by investing huge sums of money, and since the clubs at the top earnt the most money, it created a positive feedback loop for those clubs! Again, more money piled in from outside as the TV deals grew larger and larger and more foreign owners came into the league, throwing money around in a hope of grabbing a slice of the action. We saw City have the GDP of a small nation piled into their club to turn them from Championship team into the dominant force in the Premier League. Whispers abound of crooked dealings, backhanders, inflated sponsorship deals and payments off the books. In total, who knows how many billions it has taken to make City competitive? Again, my point is, the Premier League and Sky Sports created this environment! They created a league in which the rewards for success were so insane that it became impossible to break through the glass ceiling organically. Teams with long established histories and large fanbases have fallen by the wayside (Derby, Nottingham Forest, Sunderland etc...) and are sat languishing in the lower divisions, probably never to return. At best, they might hope to scrape into the Premier League for a season or two and/or get bought by some oligarch somewhere who will change their kit, build a new stadium, 'update' the badge and buy 23 players who had never heard of their club previously. It's a joke. Football gave into commercialisation and sold it's soul decades ago. This is just the latest evolution* of a cycle that incentivises greed and crushes organic competition, created by the Premier League and Sky Sports.

*Note: when I say 'evolution', people seem to take that word as a positive...i.e. as a 'change for the better'. What I actually mean by that is that this is a natural progression of the path football chose 30 years ago. We have seen in the global economy that you can't have a 'bit' of Capitalism. As soon as you allow profit to dictate without regulation, Capitalism will eat everything in it's path, whether that's people, the environment, other businesses, local institutions, Governments or a sport, in this case.

Those old enough to remember the formation of the Premier League will, I am sure, confirm that fans were forewarned about this at the time. But who was involved in driving this new, elite competition which threatened the very competitive spirit of the English game? Well that would be none other than Sky Sports. According to Wikipedia - " It (Sky Sports) has played a major role in the increased commercialisation of British sport since 1991, sometimes playing a large role in inducing organisational changes in the sports it broadcasts, most notably when it encouraged the Premier League to break away from the Football League in 1992". So, in effect, what happened in 1992 was exactly what is happening now. 'Elite' clubs had their heads turned by the offer of lucrative TV broadcasting deals and decided to breakaway from the old established structure, which promoted much fairer allocation of resources and more even competition.

So again, going back to my point. Why have Sky scrambled to condemn this new ESL with such ferocity? Is it because they care deeply about fans, competition and 'fairness'? Of course it isn't! It's because for a long, long time it is Sky who have created the conditions under which the fans have been ripped off and they see their cash cow disappearing! It was Sky and the Premier League who created the conditions under which fans are charged £50+ for a Match Day ticket, where fans are forced to sign up to automatic cup ticket schemes or lose their STs, where fans are charged £75 for a replica shirts (x3 per season), where semi finals take place at Wembley at great expense to fans, where there are three different TV broadcaster which fans must sign up for if they want to watch as many of their teams games as possible, where foreign billionaires have come into the game in droves to buy up football clubs and siphon out their share of the profits.

The hypocrisy of it all absolutely reeks. We've got Neville, Carragher and every Sky Sports pundit and journalist gnashing their teeth and wailing about how 'it's all so unfair' as if they care! Where were these voices when the fans have pleaded for help over the years? Where were these voices when the Glazers bought Utd, or Roman bought Chelsea, or Sheikh Mansour bought City, or Stan Kroenke bought Arsenal, or FSG bought Liverpool? Where were these voices when the Green & Gold campaign begged for their involvement over the years to raise the profile of their fight to take back football? These voices were conspicuous by their absence. Not one word muttered, in fact, pundits DEFENDED these owners on TV, time and time again. Well, as I have said elsewhere, this is all of their chickens coming home to roost. THEY are responsible for creating these monsters and now it looks like they have finally lost control.

In my opinion, the final nail in the coffin and the deciding factor in emboldening the 'elite 6' was the disastrous PPV shambles. Again, the benevolent, fan-loving Socialists at Sky Sports had a brainwave and decided 'hey...this global pandemic means life-long fans can't get into the stadium and watch their teams...let's monetise that!' Brilliant...taking advantage of a virus to mug fans for more cash! However, in my opinion , this has backfired spectacularly because as we know, it was a massive flop. We can suggest that fans took a principled stance against paying for football, but I believe it was purely down to the fact the teams playing on PPV weren't a big enough draw. I guarantee had they put United vs Liverpool on PPV they would have gotten tens of thousands of buys. At this point, if it wasn't obvious before, I think the owners of the 'elite' clubs realised exactly what the rest of the league was worth without them...and that's a tiny fraction of what it is worth with them. As I said previously, this has emboldened them to the point whereby they know they have the PL and Sky over a barrel. They have an offer on the table for £310m plus a minimum £110m a season, even if they lose every Super League fixture. And, under the current system, why shouldn't they take it? Is this any worse than what has been happening to our game for the last 30 years? These billionaires have been lured in with the promise of a return on their investment and guess what, shock horror, they want to maximise every last cent!

Now, as I said right at the beginning, this is not an argument about the sporting merits of a ESL. I am saying let's really think about who is setting the narrative here. Do I personally want a 'closed shop' European Super League? Not particularly. But do I like this current version of Premier League football, dominated by oil money, plastic clubs and greed? That is equally disgusting and pointless in my opinion. So, by all means let's fight this, but let's not fight it just to return to the status quo created by Sky. The people behind the ESL, the people behind Sky Sports and the people behind the Premier League are two cheeks of the same arse. If we're going to boot these people out of football, let's really take back control of the game and have a real revolution.

We ought to be fighting for fan ownership of clubs, salary caps (whereby profits are reinvested in the game and local communities - not siphoned off by owners), restrictions on stockpiling players, restrictions of poaching young players, restrictions on the number of games, restrictions on the price of tickets, home-grown player rules in the starting XI, transfer caps...that's a true model of fairness and a level-playing field (or as near as it can/should be in competitive sport). If fighting the ESL means a return to the 'Premier League era' then no thanks, I can't be arsed, happy to just let the game go and let the monsters eat each other.
Superb post
 

Alex99

Rehab's Pete Doherty
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
15,944
How eloquently put.

You've just echoed the same sentiment re Europe's top leagues.

I've not argued that there hasn't been more PL winners than in other countries, you've decided to just add that in here now yourself. But that sentiment does indeed prove my point that competition has been stifled considerably on the continent with Spain's big two having a monopoly on their domestic league due to the having their own TV deals and the other 18 clubs getting shafted.

It's not shifting its providing factual evidence to show you've a reasoned point, instead of childish insults you lead out with.

No idea why your attempting to slate me about my opinions on European football I've posted exactly the same that Spain is dominated by the big two, Italy has been dominated by Juventus and Germany largely by Bayern with Dortmund only occasionally causing an upset.

Feel free to continue echoing my exact sentiments and say I'm "chatting bollicks" though.
I'm not echoing your sentiments. You're claiming lack of competition and monopolies existing in England since the Premier League was created, citing in particular that ther have been only 7 different English champions since the Premier League was founded, and are ignoring that other top leagues that didn't have the same circumstances have echoed them, almost as if it's just how sports work.

For further elaboration on the point:

England - 7 different champions since the PL founded (5 in the last 10 years)
Spain - 5 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Germany - 6 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
Italy - 5 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
France - 10 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Russia - 5 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Ukraine - 2 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
Netherlands - 5 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Turkey - 5 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Greece - 4 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Belgium - 6 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Denmark - 8 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Romania - 8 different champions (5 in the last 10 years)
Switzerland - 9 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
Norway - 7 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Sweden - 10 different champions (6 in the last 10 years)

So, England about par for the course in terms of title distribution, if not one of the more competitive leagues. I imagine the same is true for your points regarding yoyo-ing clubs across Europe.

How many leagues, nevermind top leagues, do you hear about having a Big 6? Most are dominated by 2 or 3 clubs at most. The fact that we not only have a "Big 6" but that this apparently dominant group are regularly infiltrated by other teams (Leicester, West Ham, Everton, etc.) show how competitive the division is.

So again, what exactly is your point?
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
24,651
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
I'd say make football truly fair. Give all participants of the CL the same amount of money, same with tv rights. Sure it may seem unfair now to clubs that have a huge fanbase as opposed to the smaller ones, but given time all the kids in Asia will be running around in a full Burnley kit once they start winning stuff.

What's so monumentally shite about the ESL though is that it's closed, because even though there arent a lot of big upsets, they're not impossible and who the feck cares about a game where the chances of an upset are nil. If Goliath had ripped David's arms off and beat him to death with it, no one would give a feck about the story. Underdogs make sports beautiful.

Also, eat the rich.
 
Last edited:

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
18,298
Supports
Aston Villa
Thought just occurred to me, remember the fuss over the 39th game? That was around 2008 when Scudamore proposed it to similar mass outcry which meant it was quickly dropped so yes hyprocritical from premier league when their former chief exec a decade ago was proposing to significantly alter the league season structure.

Big winners for me are the players and fans involved who have stepped up big time to say no so they deserve credit, not anyone at premier league or media who'll played big parts in creating this monster idea in last 30 years.
 

NasirTimothy

New Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
2,388
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
First and foremost, let me highlight that this IS NOT another thread debating the merits of a European Super League. There are plenty of threads open already where fans can discuss the respective pro's and con's of the proposed breakaway league. I'm not going to offer ANY opinion on the ESL in this thread, the purpose of this thread is solely to talk about the disgusting hypocrisy of Sky Sports and the Premier League.

Now, what am I hoping to achieve by creating this thread? Well, if nothing else, I am finding typing out these words therapeutic! Since the announcement yesterday I have sat and watched with increasing disgust as Sky and the PL have scrambled like they have never scrambled before. Admittedly, I am going to focus my ire predominantly on Sky, mainly because they have led the condemnation of the proposed ESL and because they are owned by one of the world's largest media outlets, which gives them a very large platform from which to shout! However, it's worth noting in all of this that the Premier League have blood on their hands and are as guilty as any party in allowing this to happen.

Being 31, I am too young to remember the breakaway of the Premier League from the Football League, however, by simply Googling old news stories and from chatting to older football fans, the parallels between what happened then and now are striking. Now, granted, before anybody jumps in, this wasn't quite the 'closed shop' that the ESL sounds like it may be. Of course, clubs are relegated from and promoted into the Premier League every season. However, the same concerns were raised at the time about how smaller clubs could hope to survive and what true competition we would be left with if the clubs at the top of the pyramid earned 50 times what the clubs at the bottom earnt. In reality, these fears HAVE been borne out, in the sense that SIX founding clubs have never been relegated from the Premier League. Sure, you can argue it's possible, but in reality, the chances of any of those six actually being relegated is slim to none. Add in the new-money clubs like City (and to a certain extent the likes of Wolves and Leicester under their new ownership) and it's clear that it is becoming increasingly unlikely that any of the 'elite' clubs will be relegated and it is increasingly difficult for promoted clubs to establish themselves in the Premier League. Even the few that do manage to earn promotion and stay in the Premier League for a few seasons seem to scrap tooth and nail between 20th and 10th before eventually being relegated when their luck runs out. Burnley, for example, have done an absolutely outstanding job and have been in the PL for 6/7 season now. However, during this period their highest league finish has been 7th, which is admittedly a remarkable achievement...but is that really 'competition', when we're lauding teams for somehow achieving an 'impossible' 7th-placed finish? Of course, Burnley have recently been bought out by Americans themselves, so ultimately the bit of success they have had as come at the inevitable cost of having their club ripped away from the local community and into the hands of the uber-capitalists who, slowly but surely, will try to take the club away from the fans.

In addition to it becoming increasingly difficult to break into the PL, only SEVEN clubs have won the Premier League in the 30 years the competition has existed. Of those 7, only really Leicester really stand out as a shock, and they themselves have benefitted from foreign investment (though not to the extent of the likes of Blackburn, Chelsea and Manchester City). Perhaps more shockingly (for me) is that only NINE English clubs have ever qualified for/played in the Champions League. What we are left with then, in reality, is three leagues within a league and the illusion of competition. Of the hundred plus professional football teams in England, only 7 have ever won the Premier League and only 9 have ever qualified for the Champions League. Those numbers would be much smaller if you take Abrahamovich out of Chelsea, Jack Walker out of Blackburn, King Power out of Leicester and Sheikh Mansour out of City. So, my point is, by it's very nature, the PL prevents 'real' competition, or at the very least 'organic' competition. You have perhaps three/four teams capable of winning the title, six/seven teams capable of qualifying for the Champions League and the rest are really playing not to get relegated.

In the first 12 years of it's existence, before foreign ownership, Manchester United and Arsenal won the title 11 times, with the other going to Blackburn who were HEAVILY bankrolled by Jack Walker. Does that sound like an 'open' competition? Does that sound like an egalitarian, level-playing field for all? Of course not! It was only when Roman Abrahamovich came along with his ill-gotten billions that that dominance was broken, but even then after 19 years, only four teams had won the Premier League, two of them bankrolled by super rich individuals (turns out not through benevolent love for the game - shock!). So, what the Premier League and Sky Sports had created was a competition which is was basically only possible to win by investing huge sums of money, and since the clubs at the top earnt the most money, it created a positive feedback loop for those clubs! Again, more money piled in from outside as the TV deals grew larger and larger and more foreign owners came into the league, throwing money around in a hope of grabbing a slice of the action. We saw City have the GDP of a small nation piled into their club to turn them from Championship team into the dominant force in the Premier League. Whispers abound of crooked dealings, backhanders, inflated sponsorship deals and payments off the books. In total, who knows how many billions it has taken to make City competitive? Again, my point is, the Premier League and Sky Sports created this environment! They created a league in which the rewards for success were so insane that it became impossible to break through the glass ceiling organically. Teams with long established histories and large fanbases have fallen by the wayside (Derby, Nottingham Forest, Sunderland etc...) and are sat languishing in the lower divisions, probably never to return. At best, they might hope to scrape into the Premier League for a season or two and/or get bought by some oligarch somewhere who will change their kit, build a new stadium, 'update' the badge and buy 23 players who had never heard of their club previously. It's a joke. Football gave into commercialisation and sold it's soul decades ago. This is just the latest evolution* of a cycle that incentivises greed and crushes organic competition, created by the Premier League and Sky Sports.

*Note: when I say 'evolution', people seem to take that word as a positive...i.e. as a 'change for the better'. What I actually mean by that is that this is a natural progression of the path football chose 30 years ago. We have seen in the global economy that you can't have a 'bit' of Capitalism. As soon as you allow profit to dictate without regulation, Capitalism will eat everything in it's path, whether that's people, the environment, other businesses, local institutions, Governments or a sport, in this case.

Those old enough to remember the formation of the Premier League will, I am sure, confirm that fans were forewarned about this at the time. But who was involved in driving this new, elite competition which threatened the very competitive spirit of the English game? Well that would be none other than Sky Sports. According to Wikipedia - " It (Sky Sports) has played a major role in the increased commercialisation of British sport since 1991, sometimes playing a large role in inducing organisational changes in the sports it broadcasts, most notably when it encouraged the Premier League to break away from the Football League in 1992". So, in effect, what happened in 1992 was exactly what is happening now. 'Elite' clubs had their heads turned by the offer of lucrative TV broadcasting deals and decided to breakaway from the old established structure, which promoted much fairer allocation of resources and more even competition.

So again, going back to my point. Why have Sky scrambled to condemn this new ESL with such ferocity? Is it because they care deeply about fans, competition and 'fairness'? Of course it isn't! It's because for a long, long time it is Sky who have created the conditions under which the fans have been ripped off and they see their cash cow disappearing! It was Sky and the Premier League who created the conditions under which fans are charged £50+ for a Match Day ticket, where fans are forced to sign up to automatic cup ticket schemes or lose their STs, where fans are charged £75 for a replica shirts (x3 per season), where semi finals take place at Wembley at great expense to fans, where there are three different TV broadcaster which fans must sign up for if they want to watch as many of their teams games as possible, where foreign billionaires have come into the game in droves to buy up football clubs and siphon out their share of the profits.

The hypocrisy of it all absolutely reeks. We've got Neville, Carragher and every Sky Sports pundit and journalist gnashing their teeth and wailing about how 'it's all so unfair' as if they care! Where were these voices when the fans have pleaded for help over the years? Where were these voices when the Glazers bought Utd, or Roman bought Chelsea, or Sheikh Mansour bought City, or Stan Kroenke bought Arsenal, or FSG bought Liverpool? Where were these voices when the Green & Gold campaign begged for their involvement over the years to raise the profile of their fight to take back football? These voices were conspicuous by their absence. Not one word muttered, in fact, pundits DEFENDED these owners on TV, time and time again. Well, as I have said elsewhere, this is all of their chickens coming home to roost. THEY are responsible for creating these monsters and now it looks like they have finally lost control.

In my opinion, the final nail in the coffin and the deciding factor in emboldening the 'elite 6' was the disastrous PPV shambles. Again, the benevolent, fan-loving Socialists at Sky Sports had a brainwave and decided 'hey...this global pandemic means life-long fans can't get into the stadium and watch their teams...let's monetise that!' Brilliant...taking advantage of a virus to mug fans for more cash! However, in my opinion , this has backfired spectacularly because as we know, it was a massive flop. We can suggest that fans took a principled stance against paying for football, but I believe it was purely down to the fact the teams playing on PPV weren't a big enough draw. I guarantee had they put United vs Liverpool on PPV they would have gotten tens of thousands of buys. At this point, if it wasn't obvious before, I think the owners of the 'elite' clubs realised exactly what the rest of the league was worth without them...and that's a tiny fraction of what it is worth with them. As I said previously, this has emboldened them to the point whereby they know they have the PL and Sky over a barrel. They have an offer on the table for £310m plus a minimum £110m a season, even if they lose every Super League fixture. And, under the current system, why shouldn't they take it? Is this any worse than what has been happening to our game for the last 30 years? These billionaires have been lured in with the promise of a return on their investment and guess what, shock horror, they want to maximise every last cent!

Now, as I said right at the beginning, this is not an argument about the sporting merits of a ESL. I am saying let's really think about who is setting the narrative here. Do I personally want a 'closed shop' European Super League? Not particularly. But do I like this current version of Premier League football, dominated by oil money, plastic clubs and greed? That is equally disgusting and pointless in my opinion. So, by all means let's fight this, but let's not fight it just to return to the status quo created by Sky. The people behind the ESL, the people behind Sky Sports and the people behind the Premier League are two cheeks of the same arse. If we're going to boot these people out of football, let's really take back control of the game and have a real revolution.

We ought to be fighting for fan ownership of clubs, salary caps (whereby profits are reinvested in the game and local communities - not siphoned off by owners), restrictions on stockpiling players, restrictions of poaching young players, restrictions on the number of games, restrictions on the price of tickets, home-grown player rules in the starting XI, transfer caps...that's a true model of fairness and a level-playing field (or as near as it can/should be in competitive sport). If fighting the ESL means a return to the 'Premier League era' then no thanks, I can't be arsed, happy to just let the game go and let the monsters eat each other.
Wow, quite an essay there. But mostly factual. I too have found the hypocrisy of UEFA, Sky etc. quite nauseating.
 

Tony Babangida

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2017
Messages
813
Cancel your sky sports subscription. It’s basically the easiest action anyone can take against money in football. Not much on your own but if everyone did it...
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,643
A large section of supporters are thick and have short memories.

Most of them can't even remember a few months back where Sky attempted to charge £15 for a game of football via PPV!

Meanwhile you've Gary pontificating all weekend whilst he said this only a few months ago... the irony is outstanding!

He's a clever little b*llicks, manages to blame the PL whilst ignoring his employer Sky who were actually charging it!

It takes a picture of him drinking wine after Liverpool lose points, and all is forgiven for some.

Still freshly remember in one game he's commenting, on how he insisted that Shaw didn't get the ball, even though they showed 10 times of replays from different angles of Shaw did get the ball.

I just then realised, he'd say anything to make himself relevant.
 

Lentwood

Full Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
6,840
Location
West Didsbury, Manchester
@Alex99

I acknowledged in my OP that the Premier League wasn’t a “closed shop” to the extent that the ESL *may* have been but I don’t think that undermines my point. I did say the ESL was a “natural evolution” of the competitions that Sky and the PL have created.

Also, consider that I do also express a concern that the new money coming into football will make the problem even worse. Brighton and Aston Villa have two of the highest net-spends in world football over the last few seasons. Wolves are owned by Chinese investors. Leicester are owned by the billionaires behind King Power. I could go on and on.

Are we in grave danger of creating a PL in which 14/15 teams are permanent fixtures? Remember, when we are talking about the PL and its impact on competition in English football, we have to look at the whole football pyramid and not just the teams currently in the Premier League
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,941
Location
Somewhere out there
I'm fecked off with everything.

Where was all this outcry from the football community when the Glazers took over United and saddled us with debt? No one was arsed other than United fans. People thought it was funny.

Where was the Government intervention when Abu Dhabi took over City? The books were cooked and UEFA and the PL couldn't care less.

Same with Chelsea, same with PSG. No one cared.

Now people realise that their beloved team might be impacted by the monsters they allowed to be created they all rally together under the front of being in it for the people when all they are doing is seeking to protect their own interests.

The whole thing is sour.
Couldn’t agree more. Gaz Nev wanking over City every week and PSG’s Ander Herrera telling us about little boys dreams made me wanna throw a brick through my screen.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
The breakaway Premiership was in no terms similar to the proposed ESL.
The Premiership had the backing of the Football Association, the lead figures in the English Football pyramid.
It wouldn't of happened without that backing.
The ESL had no authority backing it, instead condemning it.

The simple fact is money is rife in Football and creates a uneven playing field, but the clubs who draw less money have hope that they can get to the top, whereas the ESL would have been unreachable for the majority of teams, and completely unbalance football as we know it.

There's no hypocrisy as far as I'm concerned with people who watch Sky or BT, or the pundits on there venting about how they don't want this ESL to happen, as the whole of football is pretty much unified against it.

Football has to change moving forward, that is evident and I'm sure this will be the catalyst for that change, but the Premiership has done way more good than harm to the national game and pyramid, and is in no way similar to the proposals of the super League.
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,586
People have to understand that Jamie Carragher and Phil Neville had a huge role to play in firing up public opinion here. They had a big part to play in shaping the first wave of public outcry, and in turn did their share of helping to save the sport we all love. So did every fan that took to the streets to protest after, but its the very impassioned comment from Neville on Sunday night just a few hours prior to the clubs officially launching the project. Before the league was even launched there was already public outrage over the plans that kept ballooning.

But more to the point:

Because you haven't done something in the past, doesn't mean you can't have an opinion now.

Football is a free market economy in a industry that is growing, and growing, and growing. The money has to go somewhere.

Blaming football players for the wages is about as dumb as blaming the cashier for the price of the coca cola you're buying. What dictates player salaries are: Player agents who negotiate on behalf of the players, club budgets, and the board who approve the salary budget.

On the forefront of the latest boom since the Ronaldo transfer is new TV deals in the UK and the influx of money in football from PSG and the Neymar transfer that set a new standard for football transfers. The irony is that the UK Premier League clubs have sustainable wage budgets if operated in an uninterrupted market. Football clubs spend money on the club, not R&D like Apple or filantropy like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

It's easy to say that you should cap player wages, donate to local communities etcetera, that's all well and good, but cap player wages against what? Budgets? Budgets have grown massively the past decade.

I'll just keep this short: Fans that generate income to the club by the hundreds of millions are equally to blame for the increase of money in football as are owners that try to capitalize on it.

A handful of football players make some money? Try going to the New York Stock Exchange, these people lose annual football player salaries over a bet of who can chug a beer during happy hour the fastest. They are the ones that tried to take our sport away, not the players that are awarded salaries the clubs are willing to give them.

The "battle" of the past 2 days has not been about club ownership, money in football or corruption. It has been to protect the sanctity of competition where clubs, even if an uphill battle, have a chance at sporting glory, like Leicester, West Ham, Ajax, Mönchengladbach and every other club that hover on the periphery of something big. UEFA, FIFA and everything surrounding it is a chapter all by itself, but they represent the competition we know and thus I'm curious where all this passionate outrage has been the past decades?

In 1770 - Thomas Burke wrote: "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Yesterday good men fougt for good, by the thousands, and everyone who had a voice to speak out should be commended, not immediately lambasted.
 

Alex99

Rehab's Pete Doherty
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
15,944
@Alex99

I acknowledged in my OP that the Premier League wasn’t a “closed shop” to the extent that the ESL *may* have been but I don’t think that undermines my point. I did say the ESL was a “natural evolution” of the competitions that Sky and the PL have created.

Also, consider that I do also express a concern that the new money coming into football will make the problem even worse. Brighton and Aston Villa have two of the highest net-spends in world football over the last few seasons. Wolves are owned by Chinese investors. Leicester are owned by the billionaires behind King Power. I could go on and on.

Are we in grave danger of creating a PL in which 14/15 teams are permanent fixtures? Remember, when we are talking about the PL and its impact on competition in English football, we have to look at the whole football pyramid and not just the teams currently in the Premier League
I don't disagree with you on most of that, really. It's why my posts weren't aimed at you, and instead Keefy, who first claimed that the PL was a closed shop because very few of the original 22 clubs had faced relegation, despite 16 of them having been relegated from the league at one point or another.

He then maintained it was a closed shop, but now because only seven teams had won it. This is a figure you mention in your OP too, but the fact is that seven winners is more than a lot of other European leagues have had since 1992.
 

Lee565

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
5,083
Sky, UEFA and the premier league are nothing but the lesser of two evils in comparison to the super league idea, to hear the lot of them act as if they cared about fairness and the fans was a joke, there does need to be major reforms with all 3 of them, for a start a netflix like football only subscription needs to happen and teams like ajax and Celtic deserve better than having to go through qualifying stages of the champions league whilst a 4th english place team gets to go straight into the group stages
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,956
Location
France
I'm not echoing your sentiments. You're claiming lack of competition and monopolies existing in England since the Premier League was created, citing in particular that ther have been only 7 different English champions since the Premier League was founded, and are ignoring that other top leagues that didn't have the same circumstances have echoed them, almost as if it's just how sports work.

For further elaboration on the point:

England - 7 different champions since the PL founded (5 in the last 10 years)
Spain - 5 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Germany - 6 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
Italy - 5 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
France - 10 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Russia - 5 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Ukraine - 2 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
Netherlands - 5 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Turkey - 5 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Greece - 4 different champions (3 in the last 10 years)
Belgium - 6 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Denmark - 8 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Romania - 8 different champions (5 in the last 10 years)
Switzerland - 9 different champions (2 in the last 10 years)
Norway - 7 different champions (4 in the last 10 years)
Sweden - 10 different champions (6 in the last 10 years)

So, England about par for the course in terms of title distribution, if not one of the more competitive leagues. I imagine the same is true for your points regarding yoyo-ing clubs across Europe.

How many leagues, nevermind top leagues, do you hear about having a Big 6? Most are dominated by 2 or 3 clubs at most. The fact that we not only have a "Big 6" but that this apparently dominant group are regularly infiltrated by other teams (Leicester, West Ham, Everton, etc.) show how competitive the division is.

So again, what exactly is your point?
For France it's 4 in the last 10 years. Lille, Montpellier, Monaco and PSG.
 

Bobcat

Full Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
6,389
Location
Behind the curtains, leering at the neighbors
@Lentwood

Fantastic post and spot on. No doubt the ESL was a idiotic money grabbing scheme, but the exisiting forces in the footballing world are no saints either.

UEFA and FIFA in particular are beyond corrupt. Its also a bit rich hearing they suddenly talk about "its the that fans matter" when you have UCL and WC finals where 90% of the tickets go to sponsors and wealthy fecks with connections
 

Zlatan 7

We've got bush!
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
11,800
Yeah, sky should have shut their mouths, told Neville to shut his mouth and just let the super league happen. That would have shown everyone!
 

Classical Mechanic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
35,216
Location
xG Zombie Nation
One of the most hilarious things about this has been watching the European football aristocracy and various other organisations drowning in a sea of hypocrisy. You've had

UEFA - a grotesquely corrupt organsiation taking the moral high ground because they faced being destroyed - they deserve to be.
FIFA - a grotesquely corrupt organsiation taking the moral high ground because they fear their brand could be next.
The Premier League - They brought this on themselves and left themselves open to such a hostile takeover.
Sky - Partners with the Premier League terrified their product was going to be destroyed.
PSG - Took the moral high ground because they are up to their eyes in corruption with FIFA until winter 2022.
Bayern - Took the moral high ground because their structure made it very difficult for them to join - they started the bloody thing!
RBL - A football team create to advertise an energy drink taking the moral high ground (they weren't invited)
Various other clubs that didn't get invited taking the moral high ground because they didn't get invited.
Amazon - taking the moral high ground as PR!!!!!!
 

redshaw

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2015
Messages
9,715
From 1970 to 1992 before England's "closed shop" came in, only 7 clubs won the title and was dominated by a handful. People are confusing cycles and good management and the evolving game. Sir Alex and Wenger was top management.
 

Zlatan 7

We've got bush!
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
11,800
From 1970 to 1992 before England's "closed shop" came in, only 7 clubs won the title and was dominated by a handful. People are confusing cycles and good management and the evolving game. Sir Alex and Wenger was top management.
He’s basically moaning about how good Fergie was and ignoring the same amount of teams won it before, also just glossing straight over the closed shop bit of the sl. Quite funny
 

ray24

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
Messages
178
Supports
Arsenal
The PL has created an uneven playing field amongst the elite European clubs. The Italians are complaining about this, in part because they are unable to generate the same revenue as UK TV rights. La Liga giants are afraid that a newly promoted PL club can generate more revenue than them.

It feels like the big part of the problem is that clubs now have revenues that exist beyond what their local community can generate. International football and the world club, because of its knock-out nature, are giving various nations more of a even playing field. Small nations like the Netherlands can be football giants because they made the right investment in youth development, while supernations like China and USA struggle to qualify for the World Cup because their youth investment and footballing system are underdeveloped.

Bosman ruling has to be blamed for some of the issues as well. It allowed players to move on from clubs that had developed them very easily, thus cementing power for the clubs that have the richest resources to buy players.
 

mitchmouse

loves to hate United.
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
17,600
Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread but there was one major difference between the formations of the PL (and Sky's deal with them) and that is that everyone was in agreement. I am one of the older fans who who very much remembers the days before its formation - and a lot of people are looking at that time through rose-tinted glasses...

It wasn't some garden of eden - some of the pitches were terrible, much of the (cheaper) terraces were pretty awful and felt far-from safe.

I hated all that "whole new ball game" PR nonsense but Sky has enabled me to watch far far more of United than I'd ever otherwise have been able to. Think how much Sky Sport costs a month, then compare that to the train fair if you don't live in Manchester.

The set-up is far from perfect but so was the old Football League - and believe me when I tell you I am a long way rom being a fanboy of Rupert Murdoch but the PL has not destroyed the spirit of competitiveness - some could argue it has increased it. Who would have dreamed in the 1980s that Leicester would be playing in Europe's top competition or that West Ham have a chance to now?
 

Ananke

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
1,432
Location
Manchester
I'm sorry I can agree with parts of this but mostly its nothing like the set up of the PL, you cant just brush over the "closed shop part". Yes Sky were greedy, chairmen were greedy (none more so than our own who made the bloody sky dishes) but the clubs involved in the break away for the PL did seek approval from the FA and didn't try to run the league themselves. They realised the new PL needed some authority in the form of the FA and teams that were selected to enter the PL were selected by performance not how much money they had. Yes the competition has only been won by a a select few teams but that s the way in most leagues in modern times, many teams hove been relegated and many smaller teams worked their way up to establish themselves in the top flight. The Football League has also benefited, there is no a second tear league in the world that comes close to The Championship.

Compare that to the set up of this new league that will ruin established European competitions, ruin domestic leagues, clubs will be selected on their ability to grow income not on performance, the league will be self regulated by the management of the founding teams and no founding team can ever be relegated.

Yes greed and money has been involved a lot more in English football since the PL was formed, but the same is in every league in the Europe, even Germany, but it has never been on the level of what is being proposed.
On the nail. 100%.