The Double Draft - R1: Joga vs Invictus

Who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
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vs

......................................... TEAM JOGA ........................................................................................ TEAM INVICTUS .........................................


TEAM JOGA BONITO

Overview:

The formation is essentially a slightly tweaked 4-2-3-1; a left wing-back, a conservative RCB/RB, an inside left and a goalscoring right wing-forward.


Tactics


Fairly straightforward stuff, keep it tight at the back and give the forwards freedom to strut their stuff but within a tactical framework, that is. The back 6 are all exceptional players on the ball (apart from Burgnich, who was no mug himself) and the focus would be on playing quick, nippy and direct football. I believe the key personnel for my side would be Facchetti and Zico, esp the latter whom I believe can make a real impact here. Likewise, Brehme for Invictus could prove to be a real handful to deal with.


Player Roles

Dino Zoff : One of the greatest keepers of all time, the cultured custodian will be a formidable presence at the back and an inspirational leader to boot. He will keep it simple during possession and would prioritise short lay-offs as opposed to long distribution.

Tarcisio Burgnich : La Roccia will be the defensive RB/RCB whose primary job here is to square up against Ronaldinho - a tough task no doubt. An excellent man-marker with great reading of the game, Burgnich has it in his defensive arsenal to keep up with the trickery of the Brazilian, having successfully nullified some of the greatest tricksters of his day - Jinky Johnstone, Dragan Dzajic, Gento and Simoes amongst others.

Paul McGrath : The Black Pearl of Inchicore was quite simply a colossus at the back, who will play the role of the relatively more aggressive centre-back, primarily dealing with the aerial and physical threat of Nordahl/Riva. His quick, one-touch passing ability from the back should aid the side's fairly quick and direct tempo on the ball too. Be sure to check out his individual compilations on here & here & here.

Maxime Bossis : La Grande Max was a class act for both club and country. The two time French Player Of The Year will primarily be the more covering centre-back of the duo, relying on his anticipation and reading of he game to deal with Invictus's attacking threats. Despite being a key presence for France, Bossis has never been yellow or red carded in his entire illustrious career for France or in international club competitions - highlighting the defensive nous of the Frenchman.

Giacinto Facchetti : The Italian would be given full freedom to forage down the left flank and he'd primarily look to stretch play on the ball and link-up with Rivelino whilst keeping tabs on Jairzinho in the defensive phase.

Michael Carrick : Nothing much needs to be said about him to United fans, he'll keep it calm and composed, using his positioning and anticipation skills to cut off passing lanes/make interceptions etc and provide a great base for the more flashy attackers, with his astute passing skills. Provide a nice counter-balance to the more blood-and-thunder, dynamic and physical Coluna.

Mario Coluna : The 'Sacred Monster' would reprise his usual midfield general role and his directness, physicality and technical ability makes him a formidable presence in the engine room. On the ball, he'd primarily look to service the forwards with his passing skills (esp Rummenigge from the deep) and also occasionally mix it up with a dribble, a rampaging run forward or a cracker from outside the box. Defensively, he'll put his physicality and dynamism to good use to complement the more serene defensive style of Carrick.

Rivelino : The idol of Ronaldinho and Maradona, the Atomic Kick would primarily look to link-up with Zico and he would prove to be a nice foil to the like of Zico, Carrick and Coluna on the ball, whilst being a complementary counter-weight to the incisive Kalle on the right. Rivelino's mutli-faceted threat on the ball (dribbling, incisive passing & goalscoring threat) and his tactical intelligence (fairly hardworking for a player of his ilk, able to drop back into midfield or occupy the attacking inside left channels etc) should be at the fore for this exciting side.

Zico : One of the greatest players ever, the goalscoring playmaker has a fairly straightforward role here - pull the strings, link up with the like of Coluna, Rivelino, Carrick; provide defense-splitting balls, go on mazy runs and of course apply the finishing touches.



Karl-Heinz Rummenigge : Kalle will be the real focal point of this attack with the umpteen creative presences in the side looking to pick up his runs. His movement off the ball was out of this world and his well rounded game play meant that he could both function as a threat outside the box with his dribbling and incisive runs, and pose a threat as the focal point in the box with his physicality and presence.

Antoine Griezmann : Essentially a direct and probing final third player with exceptional movement off the ball and a ruthless streak. His role would be to probe, create openings and space for the prime focal point (Rummenigge and to a lesser extent Zico) to move into and be lurking about for opportunities that will arise. He has his work cut out against an imposing CB duo but his predatory instincts could prove to be useful with the likes of Zico and Kalle taking the bulk of the opposition's attention. It's also key to note that he's come leaps and bounds with regards to his general play under Simeone - esp his physical aspects of the game, his hold-up play, aerial ability and ruthlessness etc.

He's had plenty of clutch performances for both Atletico and France over the years, finishing as the Player of the Tournament and top scorer in Euros 2016 but it's his work for Atletico which stands out the most, esp as chances are relatively hard to come by with Simeone's compact strategy.

Performance as the lone centre-forward against reigning CL holders and Messi led Barca; helped overturn a 2-1 first leg deficit, with a two goal salvo in the 2nd leg.

 
TEAM INVICTUS

Nothing too elaborate in the tactics for this match, we plan on playing a balanced game and will look to keep it tight in the central defensive areas whilst exploiting our advantage on the wings and up front (especially if the opposition fullback commits higher up the pitch). Whilst we think it will be a closely contested affair, we feel we have the edge due to:

1. GREATER SECURITY AND LEADERSHIP IN MIDFIELD

In Rivera (voted 19th best ever by IFFHS) and Zico (voted 14th best ever by IFFHS), both teams boast one of the game's greatest #10's with little between the two in terms of overall quality.

When looking at the two set ups we feel that our team is much better placed to defend against the threat of Zico than the opposition is placed to deal with Rivera - Joga's only real defensive midfielder is Carrick who lacks the agility, tenacity and work-rate to cut off someone as technical and fluid as the Ballon d'Or winning Rivera.

In contrast, our team is marshaled and captained by none other than Obdulio Varela - a man so good and suited to the task that Fernando Redondo has been relegated to the bench. Varela was the archetype of the Rioplatense No. 5; able to handle himself physically, superb at shielding his defense and linking play to the midfield - widely considered one of the greatest captain in the history of football, the best defensive midfielder to hail from South America, and a Top 5 defensive midfield great - not least according to the opposition manager:

Joga Nonito said:
Varela is quite simply another monstrous player who was arguably the best, if not the most influential, player at the 1950 WC and is one of the top 5 DMs to grace the game imo.

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South America - Player of the Century
1."Pelé" (Brazil)
2.Diego Armando Maradona (Argentina)
3.Alfredo di Stéfano (Argentina)
.
13. Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay)

2. NATURAL WIDTH AND A COMPLEMENTARY ATTACK

The opposition front has a lot of talent, but it's lacking in natural width to stretch the play away from crowded central areas - unless Joga starts with Littbarski of course (which he should do TBH - functionally he's a better fit).

The expected line up of Rivelino, Zico and Rummenigge all loved to operate in more central areas, and Griezemann loves to drop deep when playing further forward (behind a more conventional #9) - this is going to congest the space, and it won't get the best out of that attack in our opinion - all the while lacking someone who hold the ball up and keep the central defenders occupied (a Sérginho, Hrubesch, Müller, Giroud type player).

In contrast, Jairzinho and Ronaldinho peaked as two of the greatest and most athletic wide players to ever play the game, despite also playing in other positions. The Brazilians will provide real tests for the opposition fullbacks defensively, whilst dragging defenders wide and creating space centrally for Rivera and Riva to exploit.



On the right Jairzinho offers a unique mix of dribbling wing-play and direct goalscoring, constantly stretching play out wide before overloading the center with his directness and powerful presence.

A great compliment he earned was in the final against Italy when his explosive and dangerous abilities came in for special check by Facchetti.

That Jairzinho could disentangle himself from dedicated man-marking and even score past Albertosi was one of the highlights of that final, something that made experts rate him as one of the greatest wingers in world football.

Jairzinho was a worthy successor to Garrincha and his devastating bursts of speed combined with lethal shooting were one of the highlights of the great 1970 World Cup and he became the only player to score in every round including the final. His seven goals came in many forms - delicate chips and powerful shooting, but he was also a goalmaker and split defences with superb passing.

His Brazilian counterpart on the left produced one of the greatest peaks in European club football history - a veritable magician who cut-through opposition defenses with his effortless blend of technical skill and blistering athleticism.

3. LUIGI RIVA - ELITE THREAT BEHIND THE DEFENSE

Our attack is based on maximizing space for the creative players to play, in and a vital part of that is possessing a genuine threat in behind the opposition defense. In Luigi Riva we have a perfect fit, an arch-typical complete striker and indisputably the greatest #9 to come from Italy - Riva's pace and his movement prevents the opposition pressing in higher areas and offers threatening through ball opportunities for his good friend, and international team-mate Rivera (who in our view stands as the best pure passer on the park).

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Despite Riva's career ultimately being cut short by injuries, what he achieved at Cagliari was nothing short of phenomenal - leading the newly promoted side to their first and only Serie A Championship in a way reminiscent of Diego Maradona at Napoli. His loyalty to Cagliari led him to repeatedly turning down a move to Juventus in a record-breaking transfer which would have made him the most expensive player in the world.

"Juventus President Giampiero Boniperti thought he finally had his man. “Every time he played in the north of Italy I would ring him up,” he would later say. Desperate to land Luigi Riva, it was said six Juventus players were to be exchanged for just one. But what a player.

In 1973, at the age of 29, it appeared as if the Bianconeri would finally complete their quest to land the man known as Rombo di Tuono – Rumble of Thunder. Cagliari accepted a deal worth around 1 Billion Lire – £1.5m. Had the deal gone through it would easily have smashed the world record transfer of £500,000 Juventus paid for Pietro Anastasi in 1968, and the new mark set also in 1973 by Barcelona to land Johan Cruyff – £922,000.

There was just one snag: Riva again refused. He would not leave his people. He was a symbol to the Cagliari fans. The bond between the player, club and region proved unbreakable. There was something seductive about Cagliari that would keep it and Riva linked. An intangible. Riva remains an icon in Sardinia, even today. He led Cagliari to heights it had never seen before, or since.
"

Despite the move to Turin never happening, and whilst only playing for one of the smaller sides in Serie A - Riva finished as the top goalscorer in the league on three occasions (only Gunnar Nordahl has a superior record) and internationally he remains Italy's all time leading goalscorer with 35 goals in 42 games (average of 0.83 GPG).

Widely considered the most talented forward in Italy, between 1968-1970 Riva finished 6th, 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon D'Or - with Gerd Müller his only rival in this period for the title of Europe's best striker.

 
PLAYER PROFILES

OLIVER KHAN


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Ballon D'Or: 2001 (3rd) 2002 (3rd)
FIFA World Player of the Year: 2002 (2nd)
European Keeper of the Year: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
IFFHS World's Best Goakeeeper: 1999, 2001, 2002
UEFA Best Goalkeeper: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
Bundesliga Keeper of the Year: 1994, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
German Footballer of the Year: 2000, 2001
FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 2002
EURO Winner: 1996
FIFA World Cup: 2002 (2nd) 2006 (3rd)
Bundesliga: 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008
UEFA Champions League: 2001

A goalkeeping behemoth - Kahn was a vocal, imperious presence, with his aggressive demeanor earning him the nickname 'The Titan'. In addition to his World Class technique, distribution, and shot-stopping abilities, Kahn is widely admired for the stamina, mental strength and leadership and is one of only three goalkeepers to place in the Top Three of the Ballon d'Or.

DANI CARVAJAL

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UEFA Champions League winner: 2014, 2016
FIFA Club World Cup: 2014
UEFA Super Cup: 2014
Copa del Rey: 2014
Champions League Team of the Season: 2016

On the right side of our defense, we have the mandatory youth player Dani Carvajal. And in terms of the caliber of opposition all youth players are facing, they don't have the resume to back up their skills in a historical context. That said, while he's not a Zanetti, Carvajal is s actually one of the best and most balanced fullbacks in football right now. And unlike a lot of players who abandon their defensive assignments - he's a good marker with solid tackling ability and well rounded defensive skills.

ALESSANDRO NESTA



Serie A Defender of the Year: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003
EURO Team of the Tournament: 2000
UEFA Team of the Year: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007
FIFPro World XI: 2005, 2007
Serie A Winner: 1999, 2004, 2011
World Cup Winner: 2006
UEFA Champions League Winner: 2003, 2007
EURO Finalist: 2000

Alessandro Nesta is one of the 10 greatest footballers in history when it comes to pure defensive skill, and without a doubt, the greatest central defender of the last 20 years - in all of world football.

To borrow a quote from @Enigma_87 - He won 5th European footballer of the year in 2000, was the best defender in the world in early 2000s in which he won Defender of the Year almost every season. He was known for pace, strength, tackling, positional sense, tactical awareness, vision and technical ability unbecoming of a central defender.

VELIBOR VASOVIC

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Yugoslav League winner: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965
European Cup Finalist: 1966, 1969
European Cup Winner: 1971
Eredivisie Winner: 1967, 1968, 1970
KNVB Cup Winner: 1967, 1970, 1971

Velibor Vasović is arguably the greatest defender in the history of Eastern Europe and one of the most complete defenders in the world in the '60s. He had excellent understanding of the game, which combined with his natural talent enabled him to guide an an unfancied Partizan Belgrade team to the finals of the European Cup.

He the who led the Total Football revolution at Ajax with Rinus Michels and Johan Cruyf. There he emerged as one of the greatest team leaders in the history of the game and a mentor to Cruyff, Krol and Neeskens, among others. A charismatic player, true leader on the field who had great understanding of his teammates movements - Michels made him the first foreign captain in Ajax's history, being a key player of the origin of the total football style of play:

He then Captained Ajax and led the Total Football revolution with Rinus Michels and Johan Cruyff - being a key player of the origin of the total football style of play and a mentor to Cruyff, Krol and Neeskens. A true leader on the field who had great understanding of football - Michels made him the first foreign captain in Ajax's history where he led them to European triumph in 1971.

Too often, as Dutch mentalities can tend to be, there was a lack of a winning mentality in the young Ajax squad. So, Rinus Michels set out on an expedition to search high and low for a player who ticked these boxes for him, perhaps the final jigsaw of his own goudenploeg (golden team).

In short, he was hoping to chance upon Velibor Vasovic.

What stood out most about Vasović - and it is a trait possessed by the game's greatest sweepers - is a confidence that not only bordered on arrogance, it actively invaded and settled there. In his more subdued moments he claimed to be the central architect behind the totaalvoetbal philosophy, but it is undeniable that his pace and intelligence allowed Michels to implement the ruthlessly efficient offside trap that became a hallmark of Ajax's defensive strategy.


ANDREAS BREHME



Ballon D'Or: 1990 (3rd)
Serie A Footballer of the Year: 1989
EURO Team of the Tournament: 1984, 1992
FIFA World Cup All-Star: 1990
World Cup: 1990 (1st) 1986 (2nd)
EURO Runner-up: 1992
Serie A: 1989
Bundesliga: 1987, 1998
European Cup Runner-up: 1987

Andreas Brehme is one of a chosen few defensive laterals to get nominated in the Ballon D'Or Top 3, the winner of World Cup 1990 and among the greatest of all time at his position. Offering a unique combination of complete two-footedness (could take free-kicks and penalties with either foot), technical ability, tactical awareness and work rate - he could dominate an entire flank single-handedly and was as likely to unleash one by cutting inside or playing a sumptuous cross.

As pointed out by our opponent, Brehme's match winning exploits at the World Cup were legendary to say the least. Scoring in the 86 semis against France and leading the failed comeback in the final against Argentina, with 2 of his corners resulting in goals. Repeated the feat in 1990 by scoring in the semis against England and topping it off with the WC winning goal in the final. Epic stuff.

He's one of 5 full backs ever, to finish in a Ballon d'Or top 3 and he also won the Serie A POTY in a ridiculously strong league featuring the likes of Maldini, Baresi, Gullit, Matthäus, Rijkaard, and Van Basten.
 
contd...

OBDULIO VARELA


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IFFHS South America Player of the Century: #13
1942 Copa America MVP
1950 FIFA World Cup All-Stars Team
1950 World Cup Winner
1942 Copa América Winner
Copa Baron vs Brazil: 1940, 1946, 1948
Uruguayan Primera División: 1944, 1945, 1949, 1951, 1953, 1954

Known as the “Negro Jefe” (Black Chief), Obdulio Varela got his nickname ever since, contradicting all the odds, Uruguay beat an exceptional Brazil side in the World Cup final of 1950. Varela was captain of the team and drove it to victory, with Uruguay coming from behind to score twice in front of a world-record 200,000 spectators.

That win is recalled as a miracle and made Obdulio Varela immortal in the eyes of the Uruguayan people. Varela's defensive prowess choked the life out of the Brazilian attack and his ball distribution lead to the two goals scored by Schiaffino and Ghiggia. When the whistle blew the silence was ominous; as Rimet himself, who was in attendance, put it "The silence was morbid, sometimes too difficult to bear."

In 1940, 1946 and 1948, Uruguay had won the Baron de Rio Branco Cup and his club team Peñarol had won the Uruguayan league championship on six occasions. He was 37 when the national team travelled to defend their title in 1954 - Varela was then the oldest ever player to have appeared in a World Cup, but that didn’t affect his game. Czechoslovakia and Scotland were beaten comfortably in the first round before Uruguay also beat England 4-2 in the quarterfinal when Varela picked up a leg injury.

This injury prevented Varela playing the semi-final against Hungary and Uruguay ultimately lost 4-2 after extra time. Varela ended his World Cup career unbeaten in seven matches and many people believe a full strength Uruguay team would have beaten the magic Hungarians.

OWEN HARGREAVES

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England Player of the Year: 2006
UEFA Champions League winner: 2001, 2008
Intercontinental Cup: 2001
Bundesliga: 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006
Premier League: 2008
DFB Pokal: 2003, 2005, 2006

Playing alongside the titanic Varela is is Owen Hargreaves. Now, in the context of this draft, all legacy picks are default SHEEP, but in terms of our setup and what Hargreaves is being asked to do, he's actually a half-decent fit, despite the narrative around him being tainted by the acrimonious exit from Old Trafford. He'll be the complementary 'water carrier' in the middle - using his verve and stamina to harry and press and chase down opposition players, and neat passing ability to move the ball along for more gifted team-mates.

A reductive role? Yes. Because legacy picks are reductive players. However, there's one element where Hargreaves shines - which will be a perfect fit alongside Varela: and that's sheer determination. From his performances in the latter stages of the 2000 Champions League campaign, to his seemingly heroic turnouts for England in 2006 and then being the key high-intensity link for United in 2008.

"A warrior, a terrier, very quick across the ground and incessantly nibbling at people’s feet before playing the easy ball onto his more talented counterparts. Hargreaves fulfilled that role for club and country with aplomb, introducing himself to the world with a sterling man-marking job on Pablo Aimar in the 2001 UCL final, and re-introducing himself to the English public in 2006 as their player of the tournament."

"Ran and ran and ran some more, even late in the second half when others around him were wilting. All-action performance which won over the England fans, most of whom were singing his praises loudly 10 minutes before the final whistle. Brave enough to take a penalty and was the only England player to score."

"He captured the attention of the watching world as an inexperienced 20-year-old during Bayern's successful 2001 Champions League campaign. Barnstorming games against Real Madrid in the semifinals and Valencia in the final meant Hargreaves had firmly arrived on the scene."

GIANNI RIVERA

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Ballon D'Or: 1969 (1st) 1963 (2nd)
UEFA Golden Jubilee Poll: #35
IFFHS World Player of the Century: #19
Italian Player of the Century: #1
European Cup: 1963, 1969
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup: 1968, 1973
Serie A: 1962, 1968, 1979
Coppa Italia: 1967, 1972, 1973, 1977

Gianni Rivera is a man fondly remembered as the 'Golden Boy' of Italian football, the captain of AC Milan for 12 seasons, rated 1st in the Italian Player of the Century poll, and 9th in the European Player of the Century poll - just one position behind George Best.

His exploits on the European Cup stage are legendary, starting with Milan's defeat of Eusébio's Benfica, where the 19 year old provided 2 assists and finished 2nd in the Ballon D'Or. This was followed up with Milan's dismantling of Cruyff's Ajax, where Rivera was at the heart of almost every attacking move, setting up innumerable chances for his team-mates - for which he was rewarded with the title of European Player of the Year.

Jairzinho



FIFA World Cup Silver Boot: 1970
South American Bronze Player of the Year: 1972
World Soccer Greatest Player of the Century: 27th
Brazilian Hall of Fame
FIFA World Cup: 1970 (1st) 1974 (2nd)
Taça Independência: 1972
Copa Libertadores: 1976
Torneio de Caracas: 1967, 1968, 1970
Taça Brasil de Futebol: 1968

Jairzinho was a spellbinding superstar of the greatest national team of all time - Brazil 1970. To this day he remains a true national icon and the rightful heir to Garrincha for both Brazil and Botafogo.

A complete footballer, Jairzinho could play as a support striker, center forward or attacking midfielder - his peak however came as an explosive right winger and culminated in his exceptional performances in Mexico, where Jairzinho scored 7 goals in 7 seven games to win Brazil the World Cup.

A supremely gifted athlete, Jairzinho was a devastating offensive threat - renowned for his powerful runs, bamboozling dribbles and scintillating pace. He also possessed lethal shooting ability which is evidenced by 33 goals for Brazil, 200+ goals for Botafogo and his status as the 2nd highest scorer for Brazil at the time of his retirement (after only Pelé).

RONALDINHO

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World Soccer World Player of the Year: 2004, 2005
FIFA World Player of the Year: 2004, 2005
Ballon D'Or: 2005
UEFA Forward of the Year: 2005
UEFA Footballer of the Year: 2006
UEFA Team of the Year: 2004, 2005, 2006
Don Balón: 2004, 2006
FIFPro World Player of the Year: 2005
2002 FIFA World Cup Winner
UEFA Champions League: 2006
La Liga: 2005, 2006

FIFA World Player of the Year, UEFA Player of the Year and Ballon d'Or winner - Ronaldinho’s peak is as good as any in the history of the game. At his best he combined unreal creativity with an outstanding goal threat - scoring 85 goals in 141 games for Barcelona whilst also laying on countless assists.

A mindbogglingly talented footballer, Ronaldinho possesses incredible touch & close control, unstoppable dribbling ability and the penchant for the spectacular. One of his best moments came in the 2005/06 season when he single handedly dismantled Real Madrid at the Bernebeu - getting a standing ovation from the Madrid fans no less.

LUIGI RIVA

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Ballon d'Or 1968-70: 6th, 2nd, 3rd
Serie A Top Scorer: 1967, 1969, 1970
Italian Hall of Fame
World Soccer Greatest Ever Players: #72
Voted 8th Greatest Italian Player ahead of Roberto Baggio
1968 European Championship Winner
1970 World Cup Finalist
Serie A Winner 1970

The 'Roar of Thunder' - Luigi Riva is regarded as one of Italy's greatest players and the standards by which all succeeding striker were judged. whose loyalty to his beloved Cagliari meant that he never won as much as he should have throughout his career.

He was well-rounded and opportunistic forward with astonishing finishing skill - his natural pace and agility (he initially played as a winger) meant he was a constant threat running behind, but he was also famously good in the air due to his natural physique and heading accuracy.

Because of his rounded skillset and scoring ability (almost a goal a game for Italy, and 3 Serie A top scoring titles in the era of Catenaccio), Riva is ideally suited to leading the forward line - His capacity to roam wide brings a degree of mobility in attack, and his technical abilities allow him to occupy defenders whilst also acting as a link up front for Jarizinho, Ronaldinho and fellow Italian Gianni Rivera.
 
Excellent sides, should be a cracker this.

@Joga Bonito any particular reason to have Bosis centrally and Burgnich as a wide defender, apart from man marking Ronnie?
 
The opposition front has a lot of talent, but it's lacking in natural width to stretch the play away from crowded central areas

Agreed but the same could be levied at your side with Jairzinho and Ronaldinho who both loved to cut infield.

In contrast, Jairzinho and Ronaldinho peaked as two of the greatest and most athletic wide players to ever play the game,

Jairzinho himself has said he was more of a #10 and a central influence, who was shoe-horned out wide.


Poorly translated Fifa Article said:
And this not only because Jairzinho had a 20 - year career and played in two other World Cups, at 66 and 74, but because it was not even a top-right. Incidentally, although score, yes, a lot of goals, was not even a striker. Only it was during that period between May and June 1970, in Mexico - which served to define his image forever.

Jairzinho said:
I was a spearhead a number 10. What happens is that 1970 Zagallo selection achieved something special: joined on the same team, five guys who performed much the same function in their clubs. We were all shirts 10.

Yeah, when I was leaving with dominated ball was not easy to stop me, no. For this, then, I needed space. Even in Mexico in 70, playing on the edge: in most bids, I run quite the field, often in diagonal.

And we all know Ronaldinho was a trickster who loved cutting in-field and not exactly someone who provided conventional or natural width - no different than Rivelino for example. Both were brilliant in the inside left channels.



Having said that however, I don't think there would be any lack of stretching of defenses here with the likes of Rummenigge & Jairzinho's directness and off the ball runs.




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And you know why they call em Breitenigge :(. Feck the T-Bola round :mad: @Edgar Allan Pillow . The man's movement off the ball was out of the world and the number of times he got behind Junior and the Brazilian defense was ridiculous; stretching the defense, providing a couple of nice crosses and an assist whilst also being the focal point and being a great presence in the box. Likewise, Breitner's passing too, which is always underrated imo.

And that too with two immense wing-backs on show here - Brehme and Facchetti.
 
Rivelino, Fachetti and Brehme stand out to me as difference makers here. Very tight game where everyone seems to be cancelling each other out but at the same time.. too much talent on show to be a dour affair.
 
Jairzinho himself has said he was more of a #10 and a central influence, who was shoe-horned out wide.
Don't think so, mate:
25 December 1944 - Jairzinho Takes Wing

He spent the majority of his career with his hometown club, Botafogo, first joining their youth team, then playing in the first team from 1959 to 1974. There, paired with his idol Garrincha, he won the 1964 Rio State Championship. After Garrincha left in 1965, Jairzinho took his place, moving from the left wing to his preferred position on the right, where he excelled, winning numerous trophies with Botafogo.


Jairzinho's peak came as a right winger, despite him playing on the left, or centrally earlier on in his career - an evolution (of sorts). And just to show '70 wasn't a one off, that lasted into the 1974 World Cup, where he again played as Brazil's right winger, rather than a quasi-wide-ish playmaker:



And we all know Ronaldinho was a trickster who loved cutting in-field and not exactly someone who provided conventional or natural width - no different than Rivelino for example. Both were brilliant in the inside left channels.
The overarching difference in that lied in their approach, to be honest, mate. Ronaldinho was as close as you could get to a speed demon - who was a terror inside and out. Rivelino was more of a technical, slower dribbler who built up patiently - instead of a bang! artist - which lends added explosiveness to the flank Ronaldinho is on.

Also, to further elaborate upon the initial point, Griezmann is starting up front, and that puts the spotlight directly on a muddle portion of the pitch.

On top of being a youth player, Griezmann's better performances come beside or behind a conventional #9:

Conventional striker ahead of Griezmann:
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Conventional striker ahead of Griezmann:
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Conventional striker ahead of Griezmann:
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etc. etc. Behind as #9, except when pressing, and without too much intrusion when he drifts. Similarly, for Atlético - Saúl and Koke and Gabi form rigid banks for Griezmann to drop into.

That central-ish attack seems a mess from a holistic standpoint, especially with Griezmann there. Because Zico is a quasi attacking midfielder/forward to Griezmann's forward, and also played behind a more conventional 9 in Serginho:

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Then you add Rummenigge to the mix:

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Playing behind lead strikers like Müller, Hrubesch, Fischer.

All in all, IMO - this creates an incoherent jumble with multiple players vying for similar positions - playing into the triangle of death of Vasović, Nesta and Varela.
 
Excellent sides, should be a cracker this.

@Joga Bonito any particular reason to have Bosis centrally and Burgnich as a wide defender, apart from man marking Ronnie?

Bossis was equally acclaimed as an full-back (on either sides) or as a centre-back (more of the covering sort) - the prime reason why I spunked 37m on him during the auction. The former role he played for both club and country to high acclaim and he was impeccable as a centre-back later on for France in their Euro 1984 tournament. I'd say Burgnich is more accustomed to facing the tricky and speedy wide players, having squared up against the likes of Jinky Johnstone, Simoes, Dzajic and the likes in European Cup finals and of course the Euros 1968 final. Ronaldinho's tendencies to cut inside also tallies well with Burgnich's ease at gravitating towards the central areas etc.

It also made more sense to reprise the Facchetti-Burgnich partnership which won several European Cups, the Euros and made the WC final etc. Just makes it easier to picture, I reckon. Rummenigge will have more freedom here with a defensive right-back at the back giving him the freedom to execute his full range of movement. The only aspect that I don't particularly like is that I'd have preferred Coluna as the RCM and Carrick on the left, meaning Coluna's dynamism could have helped shore up the right flank/channels further - one of the prime reasons why I said Brehme would be one of the danger men in this match-up in the OP. But apart from that I'm pretty happy enough with the configuration of the side, esp the defensive set-up which should work a treat imo.
 
Rivelino, Fachetti and Brehme stand out to me as difference makers here. Very tight game where everyone seems to be cancelling each other out but at the same time.. too much talent on show to be a dour affair.

Agree on those three but I would absolutely add Rivera to that list - he's not really shackled at all and he unquestionably has the ability to make the difference. In my opinion Rivera is the best pure passer on the park (Zico the better dribbler and goalscorer).

I personally love Carrick and in terms of his ball playing ability he isn't overly outclassed here (despite it being an all-time draft), but defensively I don't think he has ever shown the ability or tenacity needed to cut out someone like Rivera.

I would also add Luigi Riva - there is a clear chasm between the credentials of the two strikers in the match and I think Riva will pose real problems for Joga's back two, particularly when McGrath gets dragged over to deal with that Ronaldinho/Brehme flank.

In contrast I can't see Griezmann posing any real problems for Nesta. It's not the optimal set up for Griezmann really who always looks better behind a proper #9 and doesn't pose the same threat on the shoulder.
 
I personally love Carrick and in terms of his ball playing ability he isn't overly outclassed here (despite it being an all-time draft), but defensively I don't think he has ever shown the ability or tenacity needed to cut out someone like Rivera.

Why do you think so? Carrick is quite strong in reading the game, anticipating passes and positioning himself to cut off routes. Considering his lack of pace, I think Rivera kind of pure passer will be right up his avenue than a quick dribbler like Zico.
 
Don't think so, mate:

Yeah, I'm not too sure on that issue myself as I don't know much about his club career. I've read on some places that declare him as the successor to Garrincha and replacing him on the right for Selecao and Botafogo etc. But there are also articles which paint him in a different light, and then you have the 'team of the 5 #10s' and of course the man himself saying he was a ponta-de-lanca (second-striker/#10 etc).

Eu era um ponta de lança, um camisa 10”, conta Jairzinho ao FIFA.com.

Here's the full article for those interested.

http://web.archive.org/web/20120819...assicfootball/players/player=63879/index.html

However, I have absolutely no issues whatsover with his positioning, nor his role here and I think it would work pretty nicely.

The overarching difference in that lied in their approached, to be honest, mate. Ronaldinho was as close as you could get to a speed demon - who was a terror inside and out. Rivelino was more of a technical, slower dribbler who built up patiently - instead of a bang - which lends added explosiveness to the flank Ronaldinho is on.

Yeah that's spot on, Ronaldinho was definitely the more speedy presence. It's an interesting left flank that both of us have tbh. Brehme providing the brains and Ronaldinho providing the explosiveness in yours, whilst it's a bit of a reversal in mine. Obviously not as black-and-white as that but you get my point.

Ronaldinho is bit more forward-like in his play whilst Rivelino obviously fulfils a different role in mine. Don't quite agree that Ronaldinho is going to be providing more width relative to Rivelino though tbh.

On top of being a youth player, Griezmann's better performances come beside or behind a conventional #9:

His best performance last season arguably came in the #9 position, when his two goal salvo in the 2nd leg against the reigning Champions League holders and a Messi-Neymar-Suarez led Barca, helped overturn a 2-1 first leg deficit. He is definitely no conventional centre-forward like a Riva, thus he doesn't exactly have much of a hold-up play nor the attributes to act as a focal point (that falls under Rummenigge as stated in the OP).



Griezmann for Atleti as a second-striker/forward tends more towards a centre-forward than a creative goalscoring forward who drops deep and helps with midfield or knitting together play etc. His prime assets are his movement off the ball, technique and his finishing. He's come leaps and bounds under his general play under Simeone, esp his physical aspects of the game and his hold-up play, aerial ability and ruthlessness etc. Whilst he does play behind Torres/Mandzukic (last season), it is quite clearly a defined 4-4-2 as opposed to a 4-4-1-1 (ala Rooney-Hernandez).


https://www.whoscored.com/Players/80241

http://www.transfermarkt.com/antoine-griezmann/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/125781

(Played 50 games as the second-striker, 25 as the centre-forward, 80 on the left wing, 22 on the the right)

The prime focal point would be Rummenigge cutting in. Zico would be the goalscoring playmaker and Rivelino the slightly deep-ish inside left who drops back into midfield as a counter-weight for Rummenigge's movement.

When looking at the two set ups we feel that our team is much better placed to defend against the threat of Zico than the opposition is placed to deal with Rivera - Joga's only real defensive midfielder is Carrick who lacks the agility, tenacity and work-rate to cut off someone as technical and fluid as the Ballon d'Or winning Rivera.

@Raees

With Coluna in the engine-room there is absolutely no want for tenacity, work-rate or physicality. This is a man who's bossed the midfield in two European Cup finals against the likes of Suarez, Kubala & di Stefano, Puskas, del Sol etc, whilst being the rock in the midfield for Portugal in '66, making the Team Of the Tournament.

A great article that extolls Coluna's all round play and depicts him as the midfield general that he was.

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...15/12/08/tuerchen-8-mario-coluna/&prev=search

Excerpts from spielverlagerung article said:
Colunas greatest strength was that he by this rare blend of physique, technique and tactical nous.

In addition to its flexibility and its capabilities, it was also the psychological factor that made him a fundamental part of his team. At a time of hard fouls, personal watchdogs, casual referee (especially abroad) and with no video evidence it was Coluna who usually protectively stood before his teammates.

He should have said, inter alia, to opponents by fouls, "when you touch the boy again, then you will leave the place with a foot the other kissing". He also motivated his teammates, divided them and commanded them around - without ever receiving authority problems.

Just as he created Goals forward, he prevented behind goals - subtle yet powerful. Defensive he was very good, used his physical strength not only in combat, but large areas to control, situational to double and intercept many passes dynamically. Here he showed what could create good positional play together with good physique.

His physique and defensive work deceived occasionally over it, that it was Coluna who was also responsible for the style of play and creativity in his team. In symbiosis with his team relevant vein and his protectiveness Coluna was one of the first football player who was too good for any task and its individual Input looked into play as part of a collective output. He might even resemble the other great star of the 50s, Alfredo Di Stefano, more than Brazil's Didi - although Coluna was never so pressing and present. He was too much Senhor Coluna.
 
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Why do you think so? Carrick is quite strong in reading the game, anticipating passes and positioning himself to cut off routes. Considering his lack of pace, I think Rivera kind of pure passer will be right up his avenue than a quick dribbler like Zico.

I can see what you're getting at, but there is absolutely no way that dealing with Rivera is right up Carrick's avenue. I mean the first point to be clear on is that Rivera was a fantastic dribbler in his own right, he wasn't as explosive as Zico or Messi but he's technically a level above anything Carrick will face in the Premier League.

In terms of anticipating passes though that's the type of thing that doesn't work as well against Rivera - the whole point about his passing ability is that he sees passes other players wouldn't, or he executes them so well that they won't get anticipated or intercepted. In my view what you have highlighted kind of works in reverse, it's the poorer passing #10's who could struggle with Carrick in midfield as he has the positioning to cut a lot of those avenues off.

In those two games against Barcelona the positioning of Carrick wasn't really an asset, because Xavi and Iniesta were so fluid and accurate in their passing that the game was played around him - and their first touch was so good that Carrick couldn't press them to win the ball.

But yeah, Carrick is a great player and a personal favourite so I don't want to criticise him really, but we need to be realistic and in the context of what he's up against - a Ballon d'Or winning #10 and arguably Italy's greatest ever player - I don't think he has ever shown the credentials to be up to that task.

That isn't a criticism btw, as Carrick was always more of a ball playing midfielder anyway and there are probably only 5-10 midfielders out there who I would feel confident pairing up against Rivera.
 
His best performance last season arguably came in the #9 position, when his two goal salvo in the 2nd leg against the reigning Champions League holders and a Messi-Neymar-Suarez led Barca, helped overturn a 2-1 first leg deficit. He is definitely no conventional centre-forward like a Riva, thus he doesn't exactly have much of a hold-up play nor the attributes to act as a focal point (that falls under Rummenigge as stated in the OP).

Griezmann for Atleti as a second-striker/forward tends more towards a centre-forward than a creative goalscoring forward who drops deep and helps with midfield or knitting together play etc. His prime assets are his movement off the ball, technique and his finishing. He's come leaps and bounds under his general play under Simeone, esp his physical aspects of the game and his hold-up play, aerial ability and ruthlessness etc. Whilst he does play behind Torres/Mandzukic (last season), it is quite clearly a defined 4-4-2 as opposed to a 4-4-1-1 (ala Rooney-Hernandez).
That's the thing, though. Griezmann played ahead of 4 central midfielders - Gabi, Fernández, Saúl and Koke. Simeone's tactics allow him to press further up or drop deeper precisely because there's acres of vacant space behind him, anto to the side of him - and no Zico type player vying for the same space when Griezmann drops.

Griezmann's movement for Simeone is very different from his movement for this team, which can't replicate the same banks of 4 mentality, and high press ethos to dislodge balls for Griezmann to then exploit. It's just that the overall dynamics of Atlético are very different from that of this team.

Also, wrt Coluna, I think he's being portrayed as something he wasn't. Yes, he could chip in with a bit of defensive work, but he was primarily a very different kind of player, than a defensive midfielder. The phrase - boss midfields against Suarez, Kubala & di Stefano, Puskas, del Sol etc - doesn't add a lot to the original point.

Coluna as the more conservative inside forward vs Inter (Suarez, Kubala, etc):

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Coluna as an inside forward vs Real Madrid (Di Stefano, Puskas and co.):

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When he played deeper, Befica lost the match because Coluna complained about how he was being tackled:

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And coincidentally, that was the coming out party of a certain 19 year old named Gianni Rivera:

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Coluna is as much of a marking defensive midfielder as Redondo was - not an elite one. Between him and Carrick, there's not much to contain Rivera, IMO.
 
Contrast that with a nasty, nasty customer in Varela:

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This is a man who anchored the underdogs Uruguay vs Brazil, in front of 200,000 rabid Brazilian supporters. Stifling the likes of Zizinho, Jair, Ademir - among others.
Varela's defensive prowess choked the life out of the Brazilian attack and his ball distribution lead to the two goals scored by Schiaffino and Ghiggia. When the whistle blew the silence was ominous; as Rimet himself, who was in attendance, put it "The silence was morbid, sometimes too difficult to bear."
There's a distinct dissonance between the defensive security of both teams, as well as the relative ability to contain the opposition #10.
 
Two great sides but I opted for Joga because I really like the idea behind his team.
 
Also, wrt Coluna, I think he's being portrayed as something he wasn't. Yes, he could chip in with a bit of defensive work, but he was primarily a very different kind of player, than a defensive midfielder. The phrase - boss midfields against Suarez, Kubala & di Stefano, Puskas, del Sol etc - doesn't add a lot to the original point.

Coluna as the more conservative inside forward to Eusebio hammerhead vs Inter (Suarez, Kubala, etc):

The match against Barca I'd agree with you to a certain extent but definitely not the match against Real where Coluna was the rock in midfield who was pivotal in turning the tides against Real Madrid and of course the WC 1966 where he was imperious in the engine-room. Shame that his compilation video got taken down. Anyway, those wiki pics couldn't be further from the truth.

8a-2015-12-01_Barcelona-Benfica_1961-Grundformationen1.png


8b-2015-11-23_Benfica-RealMadrid_1962.png


Coluna's average position in the latter esp was that of an influential midfield general who contributed to both phases of play - I'd put him in the class of B2B-ers such as Neeskens/Breitner and definitely not as an luxurious AM or playmaking DM. With Coluna as the midfield general and Carrick's astute defensive game, there is no want for defensive nous, physicality or what-nots in that midfield imo.

When he played deeper, Befica lost the match because Coluna complained about how he was being tackled:

He was taken out cynically in that match-up and he was off the pitch/hobbling for the rest of the match. To claim he was complaining about how he was being tackled is being ingenuous to the extreme. This is a player who is nicknamed the 'Sacred Monster' and someone who soldiered on in the 1961 European Cup final against Barca with a broken nose that he suffered in the early stages of the match. He also soldiered on against AC Milan too for what it's worth but the injury was too extreme for him to overcome.

Also let's not forget how he made the Team of The Tournament when he played deeper for Portugal in the WC 1966 and being their best player after Eusebio. It's quite wrong to portray him as an attacking inside left and not as the all-encompassing commanding box-to-box player that he was.

It can be argued only rough treatment in the following year’s final prevented Coluna from making it three European Cups in successive years. Brian Glanville, in his 'Voice of Football' column in World Soccer Magazine, asked the question “Had Coluna not been kicked off the Wembley field by Milan’s Gino Pivatelli in 1963, would Benfica have lost that game?”

Delaney said:
It’s the 24th anniversary of the 1963 European Cup final and, in order to commemorate the occasion, the Italian state broadcaster RAI have gathered Cesare Maldini, Mario Coluna and renowned journalist Gianni Mina into a studio to watch and discuss Milan’s 2-1 win over Benfica at Wembley. The panel have just seen the pivotal moment in the 59th minute, when Gino Pivatelli fouled Coluna to put him out of the game. The incident didn’t just reduce Benfica to 10 men in the absence of substitutions; it removed their most influential player. In a period of perceived attacking innocence, Coluna was the architect who gave the defending European champions clear direction and design. Now, the question is how much direction and design lay behind the foul.

So, Mina eventually broaches it.

“Awful challenge, eh? Lads, after 24 years, can we say whether that foul was ordered or not?”

Maldini, who was captaining Milan from centre-half that day, is insistent: “Absolutely not. Clearly it was a foul, but…”

An agitated Coluna cuts him off, pointing at the screen as a translator relays his words.

“Look how far away the ball is. Pivatelli got nowhere near it!”

“Coluna said it decided the game,” Mina interjects.

Undeniably.

Now, he would have the most important defensive job of all: to track back and stop Coluna at left-half.

The scale of the challenge was emphasised by how quickly the playmaker seized a hold of the game. Although Benfica were initially hemmed by Milan’s abrasive attitude, it was an 11th-minute drive and long shot from Coluna that characteristically brought them back into the match. For the first time, Milan were pinned back and suddenly forced to re-assess how open they’d been.

The 1963 final did not just lose Coluna. Football lost some of its innocence.

Leidy Klotz said:
Coluna didn't score as many goals as Eusebio. Instead Coluna disrupted opponents. He made his teammates better - whether in games, in practise or in the locker room. So, while the Sacred Monster's contributions were less obvious than the Black Panther's, they were just as vital. Benfica missed out on three consecutive European Championships when Coluna was injured by a bad foul from an AC Milan player in the 1963 final. Incredibly, the rules then did not allow any substitutions, even for injuries caused by fouls. So not only did Benfica lose Coluna - they also had to play ten versus eleven for the rest of the game

Miguel Delaney said:
Because of the nature of his game and the number of goals he scored, it has always been Eusebio that has been most identified with the great Benfica team of the ’60s. But, in truth, it was Coluna that completely underpinned it.

For a start, Eusebio wasn’t even at the club for the first European Cup victory in 1961. Second, he had scored game-changing goals in both that and the 1962 showpiece. To finish, Benfica probably would have won three in a row had it not been for the cynical manner that Milan specifically took Coluna out of the game in the 1963 final when there were no subs.

Had that not been the case, then Coluna might enjoy an even greater reputation now. Certainly, he deserves to. A contemporary of Nandor Hidegkuti, Raymond Kopa and Didi, manager Bela Guttmann realised that Coluna’s abilities were perfectly suited to the new playmaker role that recently proven so devastating.

And, more importantly, Coluna was fully willing to assume the responsibility. In a truly dynamic team, it was Coluna that directed the play, Coluna that drove in so many crucial long-range shots and Coluna that set up Eusebio so frequently.

They eventually took that relationship to the international stage, bringing Portugal to the 1966 World Cup semi-final and their best ever performance in the competition. As Brian Glanville wrote, Coluna was “an inspired and inspirational captain”.
 
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More on Coluna's impact in the 2 European Finals

vs Barca (1961 European Cup Final)


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Provides a cracking and penetrative, perfectly-weighted ball which leads to the equaliser for Benfica.

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Scores a stunning volley - the goal which ultimately lands Benfica their first European Cup, finally breaking the hold that Real had on the European Cup.


vs Real (1962 European Cup Final)

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Scores the equaliser - an absolute scorcher which turns the tides at 2-3.

Unfortunately, they don't really depict the immense overall impact that Coluna had on both these games (esp the latter which I made a vid of but it was taken down). However, there are plenty of sources online which really portray the influence that Coluna held over that fantastic Benfica and Portugese sides (such as the spielverlagerung site I posted earlier on this page) and also this POST that I made in the main thread.
 
I'd put him in the class of B2B-ers such as Neeskens/Breitner and definitely not as an luxurious AM or playmaking DM.

That's pretty accurate and fair Joga.

He wasn't really disagreeing with that though - Invictus himself compared him to Redondo who was even more defensively secure than Breitner/Neeskens/Coluna. My point there is that Invictus wasn't saying he was a Zidane type player, just that he wasn't a Desailly/Varela.
 
The match against Barca I'd agree with you to a certain extent but definitely not the match against Real where Coluna was the rock in midfield who was pivotal in turning the tides against Real Madrid and of course the WC 1966 where he was imperious in the engine-room. Shame that his compilation video got taken down. Anyway, those wiki pics couldn't be further from the truth.

8a-2015-12-01_Barcelona-Benfica_1961-Grundformationen1.png


8b-2015-11-23_Benfica-RealMadrid_1962.png


Coluna's average position in the latter esp was that of an influential midfield general who contributed to both phases of play - I'd compare him to a Neeskens/Breitner sort of a B2B and definitely not as an AM or a DM.
José Neto was Coluna's screen and a defensive midfielder, mate. And Cavém was a versatile rightback who could also play a bit of defensive midfield - a bit like J. Andrade. Those were dedicated players - responsible for stemming the flow of the opposition's central attack, and in Carrick - Coluna doesn't have kind of partner, because Carrick is more about positioning and being a metronome, than someone who can stop all-time great #10s. Coluna was definitely not a Breitner type B2B - at his peak, he was more about creating, than stopping - and asking him to maybe stop Rivera detracts from his primary strengths because then he's tracking back to goal. The point still remains the same: one team has an all time great destroyer (after the likes of Rijkaard and a couple others) to stop the opposition #10. And the other team has someone who peaked as a reserved inside forward - and was about building stuff, and slowly regressed to a deeper position. The latter did some defensive work, but that's not what his game was about, which can make a world of difference in a game of this magnitude.

Wrt the Delaney quote, a few illuminating words could be added from that article:
Delaney said:
Coluna has remained indignant about the entire incident ever since, at least right up to an interview with Ben Lyttleton in 2004.

“I ran past him but he chased me, fouled me from behind and broke my foot,” he said. Perhaps more interestingly, the playmaker thought Trapattoni was responsible.

“I never spoke to Trapattoni again, not even when he was managing Benfica in 2004-05. Nothing. I don’t want to talk to him again. He meant to do that. After the game [in 1987], an Italian TV station invited me to go to Milan to meet him live on a TV show.

“Trapattoni never showed up. This proved me that he really wanted to injure me.”

While Trapattoni evidently got unfair blame for that foul, he deserves a lot of credit for the effectiveness of Milan’s defending thereafter. At one crucial juncture, the left-half put in a cast-iron – but entirely clean – challenge on Joaquim Santana that completely ended a Benfica attack in the Italian box and allowed his side to keep the ball. It wasn’t far off the perfect tackle.
This is the complaining part I was alluding to. Against a renowned rough-houser like Varela - who wasn't afraid to stick the boot in, sulking or complaining about snide fouls won't do Coluna a lot of good. And the innocence line is also pertinent - because European football saw a systemic change from end to end affairs to the sneaky, hatchet man era that was to follow. Varela is better suited than most to do exactly that.
 
That's pretty accurate and fair Joga.

He wasn't really disagreeing with that though

Coluna was definitely not a Breitner type B2B - at his peak, he was more about creating, than stopping - and asking him to maybe stop Rivera detracts from his primary strengths because then he's tracking back to goal. The point still remains the same: one team has an all time great destroyer (after the likes of Rijkaard and a couple others) to stop the opposition #10. And the other team has someone who peaked as a reserved inside forward - and was about building stuff, and slowly regressed to a deeper position. The latter did some defensive work, but that's not what his game was about, which can make a world of difference in a game of this magnitude.

He clearly is and the bolded part couldn't be farther from the truth. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between. I might have gone a bit over the top with the portrayal of his game off the ball but likewise, the painting of him as an offensive inside left who just did his fair share of work is completely off the mark. Anyone whose seen the game against Real or Coluna playing for Portugal would never agree with that.

This is the complaining part I was alluding to. Against a renowned rough-houser like Varela - who wasn't afraid to stick the boot in, sulking or complaining about snide fouls won't do Coluna a lot of good.


Miguel Delaney said:
Most conspicuously, it took Coluna a few moments to get up before he had to be helped off the pitch with a broken foot.

I highly doubt anyone would take a broken foot from the result of a cynical foul, magnanimously or in their stride.
 
He clearly is and the bolded part couldn't be farther from the truth. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between. I might have gone a bit over the top with the portrayal of his game off the ball but likewise, the painting of him as an offensive inside left who just did his fair share of work is completely off the mark. Anyone whose seen the game against Real or Coluna playing for Portugal would never agree with that.

Meh, I don't really see the problem with that section.

Coluna was a reserved inside forward in terms of his position at times - even in the graphic you yourself posted.

I think its possibly just the term 'inside forward' that it causing some confusion here. It sounds offensive based on how we use the term today but Invictus clearly means the actual position/WM formation that Coluna was playing.

Football_Formation_-_WM.png


8b-2015-11-23_Benfica-RealMadrid_1962.png
 
He clearly is and the bolded part couldn't be farther from the truth. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between. I might have gone a bit over the top with the portrayal of his game off the ball but likewise, the painting of him as an offensive inside left who just did his fair share of work is completely off the mark. Anyone whose seen the game against Real or Coluna playing for Portugal would never agree with that.
Fair enough, mate. As you say - the truth does lie somewhere in the middle, indeed. But there's no doubt that Coluna was more about creating and attacking than defending at his peak, despite his workrate. This would be one of the better description for his peak function:
In 1959 the great Béla Guttmann created one of the greatest European club sides of all time, sacking 20 players on his arrival but promoting a core of brilliant youth players, who would dominate Europe for two years and Portugal for the rest of the decade. All of Guttmann's sides were free flowing attacking teams, often top heavy, but with incredible workrate from all players. His Benfica side built around the great Mário Coluna was the peak of his career and of the tactical development of the game in his era. He used Coluna as a withdrawn attacker in a role that's probably best described as an attacking box to box midfield role.
If he's more reserved - he isn't playing his peak role, and if he's playing his peak role - then he's isn't being utilized to his fullest extent, IMO. That leaves Carrick as the person responsible for shoring up the zone between the defensive core and the players ahead of him. Not the ideal recipe at this stage, IMO.
 
Fwiw, I'm not saying Coluna is a defensive powerhouse (like Varela) but equally so he isn't just a deep midfield playmaker who 'just did his fair share of work in midfield' nor was he a luxurious attacking inside left. I believe that Coluna's tenacity, physicality and his general all-round play in midfield meshes together really well with Carrick's intelligent positional play and spatial awareness. Together they are an excellent and complementary midfield duo imo and they can do a fair job of squaring up against Rivera. The prime factor here being that the opposition doesn't necessarily have a great supplementing central midfielder and has two more defensive and fairly limited presences behind Rivera, who won't cause much trouble to Carrick-Coluna. Hargreaves brought some dynamism to the table and was a decent-ish player on the ball but no great shakes in this context.

On the other hand, my midfield has Zico and a great supplementary presence in Coluna, who could mix it up with his dribbling, passing and shooting prowess. And that's before we include Carrick's class on the ball. Having said that, Invictus does have two defensive minded players to deal with that, whereas my midfield has a relatively less of a threat to deal with from the midfield - or a more solitary threat to deal with to be more precise. So it's finely poised imo and I won't be trotting out the 'the multi-faceted threat is why I believe my midfield has the edge' cliche which should be par for course really :lol:.
 
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Heh, I know right. Those two buggers had an almost telepathic understanding, and were arguably even better for Bayern. Ridiculous really, and it was gutting when he was T-Bolaed
 
Riva is at risk of getting under appreciated in this match, to be honest. He will the real difference maker - in accordance with his stature as one of the greatest strikers in football, spanning decades. Could score from a million different angles, a beastly presence with exceptional aerial prowess and the ability to evade his marker (should come in handy with Brehme's god-like ability to float and cross the ball), had a peak where he finished 6th, 3rd, and 2nd in the Ballon D'Or; playing in the harsh environs of the Serie A - becoming the top scorer three times, scoring at the rate of almost a goal per game at his peak, and half of Cagliari's total tally (apart from lending a handful of assists) in they season where they overcame the odds to clinch the Serie A title.

Cagliari goals scored: 42
Goals scored by Luigi Riva: 21
In the last 40 years of Italian football, only Diego Maradona’s partial deification in Naples can rival the status granted by Cagliari fans to striker Gigi Riva. Thirty-seven years after his Herculean goalscoring feats (21 goals in 30 games) helped the Sardinian side win their only Serie A title, his presence can still be felt around the island.

Then there was the small matter of him scoring 0.83 goals per game for Italy:



And that's aside from the droolworthy link-up with Rivera:

Rivera + Riva in the "Match of the Century"

The Italian duo of Rivera and Riva lighting it up at the biggest stage: against cries of Schnellinger! Ausgerechnet Schnellinger! emanating at the end of the first half. Riva has played his part in assisting Italy's first goal via Boninsegna. Enter Gianni, per Valcareggi's mad staffetta philosophy to diminish the role of Italy's greatest creative threat of all time.

Riva with a vital goal to level up the scores after Müller's brace, and yet another assisted for Rivera:



And Rivera with the Coup De Grâce to settle one of the greatest matches of all time, scoring Italy's crucial 4th, after being the genesis of the forward creative move at the half way line:



Incredible display of skill, resilience, and decisiveness at the death - in the most hostile pressure situation any footballer is likely to face, and after Italy's defense nearly cost them the game with several key errors.
 
The idol of Ronaldinho and Maradona - O Reizinho do Parque (The King of the Park),



Maradona said:
I grew up as an Argentinian kid, but with a Brazilian as my idol. His name? Rivelino. Everyone talked about Pelé, and I take my hat off, great player, but I didn't care what Pelé was doing, my eyes were all for Rivelino on the other side of the pitch. His left foot, his elegance, his rebelliousness... He was everything I wanted to be as a player. His dribbling was flawless, his passes perfectly accurate, and his shots unstoppable. And he did everything with his left foot. It didn’t matter if his right foot was only good to stand on, because there was nothing he couldn’t do with his left. To me it was beautiful.

Beckenbauer after the FIFA All-Star Team -with Yashin- lost 2-1 to a Rivelino goal in 1968 said said:
I came here to see Pelé, and I ended up watching Rivelino

The most amazing thing about Rivelino was not just his sheer skill on the ball but rather his multi-faceted game play and tactical malleability. He had supreme vision on the ball, with his wand of a left foot capable of pulling the strings as a #10 and was outrageously gifted technically (being the inventor/renovator of the flip-flap), whilst being a potent goalscoring threat with him/his left peg being nicknamed Patada Atómica (Atomic Kick). However, it was his tactical nous and understanding of the game, in combination with his innate talent which made him such a potent all-round package.

A great video of him pulling the strings as the #10 for his club side




Playing in his trademark role as an inside left, complementing and fitting in seamlessly into the side of the five #10s




Taking over the reigns in the very same WC, with Gerson being out injured




He played his nuanced role to perfection for Brazil 1970 - providing graft, pulling back to the midfield when the occasion called for it, taking on his marker with his dribbling skills, linking up with the forward players further up the field, or using his left peg to deadly effect in the final third with his unrivalled vision and a thunderbastard of a shot. A sublimely gifted footballer but a tactically well-versed player to boot.

GOALS & ASSISTS

Gerd Müller (GER) 10 3
Jairzinho (BRA) 7 1
Pelé (BRA) 4 5
Teofilio Cubillas (PER) 5 1
Anatoly Byshovets (SOV) 4 1
Rivelino (BRA) 3 3
Uwe Seeler (GER) 3 2
 
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Have to go off soon and will be fairly busy on Monday but will do my best to contribute to the discussions as much as possible. Certainly been an enjoyable, albeit a competitive, match thus far.
 
The 2 teams deserve to win but I will vote tomorrow.
 
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Two fine teams and you know with the calibre of the managers there aren't going to be any brainfarts out there.

In Invictus' favour, Rivera looks set to have a good game.

For Joga, if Rivelino and Facchetti can gang up on Carvajal, that could be devastation.
 
My only question about Griezmann and Kalle is that they both are the type of forwards who will thrive in the counter-attacking set-up (like Griemann against Barca for example) and they will be fairly limited in the possession game. If Joga's team will sit deep then I can see it working very well - Kalle/Griezmann running at the defenders at full speed, plus Facchetti, Burgnich and Carrick have enough experience in counter-attacking systems - is that the intention? It will limit Rivera's influence too.
 
Two fine teams and you know with the calibre of the managers there aren't going to be any brainfarts out there.

The biggest difference imo is the quality differential up front (as well as the overall compatibility of the attack).

Luigi Riva is a genuine world class #9 - second only to Gerd Muller during his era and the all time top scorer for Italy in only 42 games.

Throughout the match he's going to pose real problems for Joga's backline, particularly when McGrath gets pulled wide by Ronaldinho - constantly threatening in behind with his pace and providing through ball opportunities for Rivera, as well as an elite aerial presence in the box for the crosses of Brehme/Jairzinho.

In contrast I don't see Griezmann troubling Nesta too much (who lest we forget, is the best defender on the park) - and functionally it doesn't seem the most complimentary fit, with Griezmann constantly dropping deeper into a second striker role, which is a position already occupied by Zico and Rummenigge (and to a slightly lesser extent Rivelino).
 
Two fine teams and you know with the calibre of the managers there aren't going to be any brainfarts out there.

In Invictus' favour, Rivera looks set to have a good game.

For Joga, if Rivelino and Facchetti can gang up on Carvajal, that could be devastation.

Yeah, definitely one of the key match-ups of the day. Whilst, Facchetti does have Jairzinho to contend with here, he isn't going to be man-marking him, as he was in the 1970 final and he does have a lot more support today than he did with that match (with Bossis as the LCB and of course Coluna manning that left hand side, with addition to Rivelino who can always put in a shift off the ball). Whereas Facchetti didn't quite seem to enjoy the same sort of cover for Italy as opposed to his club side - with the likes of Corso, Guarneri & Mazzola for example. Could potentially prove to be devastating with arguably the greatest wing-back and a silky smooth inside left combining to deadly effect against arguably the weakest player on the pitch.

My only question about Griezmann and Kalle is that they both are the type of forwards who will thrive in the counter-attacking set-up (like Griemann against Barca for example) and they will be fairly limited in the possession game. If Joga's team will sit deep then I can see it working very well - Kalle/Griezmann running at the defenders at full speed, plus Facchetti, Burgnich and Carrick have enough experience in counter-attacking systems - is that the intention? It will limit Rivera's influence too.

I would say that's quite fair for Griezmann to a certain extent but not necessarily for Rummenigge imo, who's quite brilliant in both types of set-ups - with his incisiveness and dribbling always proving to be a threat on the ball and his pace and movement off the ball being deadly on the counter.



Now regarding the overlaps in my attack, I do think there are some overlaps there granted and I won't be silly enough to deny them. However, I believe they are minor overlaps and that I've given the attacking personnel the set-up and well-defined roles to minimise those overlaps, and ensure that it is an attack that can complement each other and can perform to a high level. Bra 1970 for instance, but it isn't that drastic as that side had Pele, Gerson, Rivelino, Tostao and Jairzinho all having some sort of complementary issues, but in here it's arguably just Griezmann and Rummenigge perhaps.

Coluna and Carrick are a self-explanatory complementary pair and a nice base for both our offense and defense.

Rivelino - As stated earlier, the inside left who plays a more balanced and multi-faceted role meaning he will drop deep into midfield, occupy the inside channels to link-up with the more direct forwards (like he did with Tostao & Pele for eg), use his vision to create chances and of course link-up with Facchetti against Carvajal.

Zico - Doesn't play the direct second-striker role that he did for Brazil, with the likes of Socrates, Junior, Falcao and Cerezo taking over the playmaking duties. Plays the #10 role that he did for Flamengo, as opposed to the more direct second-striker role. That's not to say his goalscoring threat goes down, nor does he not have the freedom to go forward on mazy dribbling runs - one only has to look at the 401 goals he scored in 580 matches for Flamengo. The match against Liverpool where he dominates the European Cup winners is a classic performance and precisely how I'd expect him to function here.



Rummenigge - Plays the goalscoring right wing-forward role and he has the full freedom to cut in more often than not. As I said earlier, Griezmann for Atleti imo, is more of a 4-4-2 rather than a 4-4-1-1. Rummenigge would function as the fellow forward who has all the freedom in the world to cut inside and be the focal point or into the inside right channels and utilise his creative abilities for Griezmann or Zico (as the gifs above will show). That is primarily the reason why Griezmann plays as the LCF and why Kalle he has Burgnich a defensive FB behind him to give him the full range of movement as the right sided forward.

Griezmann - As stated earlier a probing final-third forward but arguably the player with the most potential for overlaps in the side. Now that's why I've placed him on the left where he has Rivelino in a more playmaking and support role, meaning he can frequently drop into his favoured inside left channels from a more attacking perspective, with Rivelino playing a accommodating role and Facchetti providing the width. Sort of like how Tostao frequently dropped deep into the left and allowing space for both Pele and Jairzinho to rampage forward. However, Griezmann is more forward-like than Tostao, and won't be at loggerheads with the creative Rivelino or Zico in the deeper areas, whenever he drops deep that is. He isn't much of a creative or a dribbling threat and he tends to average 1 dribble and 1 key pass a game for instance. Whenever he drops deep, which won't be much here, it will primarily be to link-up play or play that one-two to gain that extra yard of space etc. And of course, he'd coordinate his movements as per Rummenigge's movement, meaning we won't be forward/striker-less.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/80241/History/Antoine-Griezmann

He doesn't have an overlap between Zico (would have in his second-striker role for Brazil) and Rivelino imo creatively or positionally, whilst he occupies a different area of the pitch to Rummenigge and plays a different role.


As you can see the left side is slightly lop-sided and the more creative version, whilst the right side boasts more incisiveness and goalscoring threat. Essentially I believe I've struck a fine balance between directness (Kalle and Griezmann), creativity and players who would 'hog' the ball in the hole etc, with Zico playing a multi-faceted #10 role with a goalscoring threat. I don't think the positional/role overlaps, which weren't all too significant to begin with, are present in this set-up - or at least not to a degree that would make it un-complementary.

It definitely isn't a straightforward set-up and I can see quite a few not liking/buying it but equally so I hope that a fair few will like the idea behind it. However, when I got Zico after already having Rivelino, I'd wanted to try something different as both were really fantastic players but fairly malleable ones that excelled in a variety of roles - on the ball that is.

However, the counter-attacking threat is definitely a valid point. Whilst I'm playing a balanced and a direct style (neither possession nor counter), as there is far too much creativity and goalscoring threat on the ball, it doesn't take away from the great counter-attacking threat that the side will possess on the break. Which is why I've been at pains to emphasise the quick passing/releasing ability of the central 4 at the back (Bossis-McGrath-Carrick-Coluna) and of course the likes of Zico, Facchetti, Kalle and Griezmann who were absolutely deadly on the break.
 
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