The Euro Draft - QF - Team EAP vs Raees

[Raees]

keep the faith, stranger things have happened.

Edit-didn't know you were of Pakistani descent, should have told me I would have switched sides

I am indeed, was gutted when we went out to the Aussies but at least the team looked like it tried for once, imagine if we had Amir and Ajmal in that attack too.

And what's with the 'middle-earth' stuff? You guys have an LotR convo running?

I don't even know the guy just dropped a line like you do in a club to create familiarity

 

[MJJ]

I am indeed, was gutted when we went out to the Aussies but at least the team looked like it tried for once, imagine if we had Amir and Ajmal in that attack too.

fecking rahat Ali though! We would have a very good chance if he had taken that catch.

Don't remind me, imagine an attack of asif, aamir, irfan, wahab, hafeez and ajmal. Would have had the best bowling in the whole tournament. Such wasted talent

 

[Raees]

fecking rahat Ali though! We would have a very good chance if he had taken that catch.

Don't remind me, imagine an attack of asif, aamir, irfan, wahab, hafeez and ajmal. Would have had the best bowling in the whole tournament. Such wasted talent

We had the best attack outside of Australia even without them in my opinion, we looked lethal.. it was the batting which let us down.

Misbah's batting constantly strangled the innings in my opinion rather than anchoring it.

 

[MJJ]

We had the best attack outside of Australia even without them in my opinion, we looked lethal.. it was the batting which let us down.

Misbah's batting constantly strangled the innings in my opinion rather than anchoring it.

Yup am not really a fan of misbah like the others. Was way too defensive as a batsman and picked fecking azhar Ali as his replacement. Not to mention him losing us the 2011 semi against India

 

[Joga Bonito]

Everyone on here and even Red Issue and Rawk

No I mean seriously. It was crazy, it just went from a dead tie to an unbelievable swing to the one side. So if you don't mind divulging the details, just how many posters did you PM?

 

[Raees]

No I mean seriously. It was crazy, it just went from a dead tie to an unbelievable swing to the one side. So if you don't mind divulging the details, just how many posters did you PM?

I genuinely targeted mostly swedes and some gooners, I would say 10-15.

 

[coolredwine]

Congratulations

@Edgar Allan Pillow
@MJJ
@coolredwine

Nice game! @Raees and @Gio

 

[antohan]

fecking cricket, not a fitting end to this gamethread. Or maybe exactly in line with it?

 

[Joga Bonito]

I genuinely targeted mostly swedes and some gooners, I would say 10-15.

Ah ok.

 

[Raees]

Holy shit, just realised there is 570 posts in this thread.. compare that to the other threads on the home page

 

[harms]

Even after the end this thread is more popular than the actual on-going game

 

[MJJ]

Team eap proving that a loss can be a win.

 

[The Red Viper]

Team eap proving that a loss can be a win.

EAP and CRW will get this since they're Indians.

"Paisey khilaye hain BC!"

 

[MJJ]

EAP and CRW will get this since they're Indians.

"Paisey khilaye hain BC!"

what else did you expect from us. They might be tamil though and not speak hindi.

 

[The Red Viper]

what else did you expect from us. They might be tamil though and not speak hindi.

WTF. You also know Hindi?

 

[MJJ]

WTF. You also know Hindi?

Urdu, so can understand hindi. Am a Pakistani, remember.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Are you boys wanting Gullit back out of Zebec's pocket so he can take a pen?

Gullit is slightly late, he was still fixing his hair. It was completely destroyed after spending so much time in Zebec's pocket.

Just noticing this.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You don't get my point. In this match he MUST cover for Facchetti and Kaizer. Having a attacking game is detrimental to his team not a even things factor.

Somewhat out-of-flow response, but as the point is pretty general, here it is:

I suppose what you said there goes right to the core of the “Euro/peak” problematics – but there have to be certain limits here, surely: What we had, in this particular example, was a player who is known as a brilliant (pure) defender in general and who did – unless anyone proves otherwise – play as a defender (albeit probably not a “pure” one) in a Euro context, and who played very well on top of that (according to known sources).

Now, his role in this team (the draft team, I mean) clearly did NOT imply that he would be bombing forward as he undoubtedly did against France in the World Cup (but that is irrelevant) and as he may have done against France in '60 (but we don't know precisely what he did there). Which means that your argument has to be something like this: Because this player probably played something of an offensive role for a defender in '60, he can ONLY play that role (or a very similar role) in this particular (fantasy) match. In spite of the fact that we know that he would have been more than capable of playing a LCB role – and that the role he excelled at in '60 would have been that of a defender (not a striker or a winger).

Spirit of the draft? Well, clearly – you can argue that it counts against him as such that he did not feature in exactly this role in a Euro context (as far as we know) – but this is surely a minor point unless the whole team is built around him in this arguably less than ideal role. And you certainly can't claim either a) that the role he did feature in (in a Euro context) was immensely different or b) that he is generally incapable of playing the role he's given here (the importance of the latter point becomes greater the less evidence we have to scrutinize, that's just the way it is).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Chesterlestreet


Peak vs non-Peak:

The whole basis of these drafts is that we can somehow differentiate between Peak vs non-Peak.

- Matthaus, Baresi, Cryuff - players who are brilliant in general, yet will get stick in this draft.
- Van Moer of 1980, Platini in 1984, Zagorakis in 2004 - players who had peak one Euro, but did not influence other Euros.

So it is of importance that we establish what they did in Euros and when.

Apply that to case in hand:

- What: Do we have examples of Zebec being defensively sound in Euros? No. This is more important due to exact role a la Beckenbauer. Was this a Kaizer who stayed defensive and let Netzer run the game (or) was this a Kaizer who bombed up the pitch himself? HUGE difference. Here we have a example of the later and zilch on the former. He is a misfit based on that match example. If you think this match is a wrong example, feel free to provide another which supports his role.

- When: When is Zebec's Euro peak? He played in 5 year CEIC-6. He also played in 1960, 1 year before he retired from football. Which was his peak? Again going by 1960 France, you have a 31 yo Zebec against a Gullit in his prime. Do you think he'll keep Gullit quiet for entire match?

 

[harms]

What have I done with Matthäus' image that he gets mentioned in the same breath as Cruyff in this draft?

 

[Annahnomoss]

What have I done with Matthäus' image that he gets mentioned in the same breath as Cruyff in this draft?

Defamed him completely, in the next all-time draft he won't be picked at all.

 

[Joga Bonito]

What have I done with Matthäus' image that he gets mentioned in the same breath as Cruyff in this draft?

 

[Balu]

Clearly there's only black and white. Matthäus can't be just great, he's either the best midfielder in the draft or shit .

 

[Gio]

@Chesterlestreet @Edgar Allan Pillow

On Zebec, a couple of points I didn't really get the chance to make during the match itself.

First, is that Zebec wore the no 5 shirt for Yugoslavia on 11 occasions including against strong European opposition in Austria, West Germany, Hungary (twice), France (twice), Scotland, England and Romania. That was from the age of 28 to 31 and we know from the various testimonies that he was a revelation at centre-half, a world-class performer. The point about peak therefore is invalid - 28-31 is the peak age for a defender. Our best evidence - wiki and the video from the 1960 Euro Nations Cup - also tells us that the no 5 role for Yugoslavia was the central defender of a back three. A large part of the rationale for bringing in Zebec and Hanappi was because of their versatility in more than one position that had been proven across different competitions.

The second is that if we are to include pre-TV age players, then we have to allow them some leeway in considering the evidence that is presented to us. It's obviously less of an issue for the strikers as we can judge by their usually handsome goal tallies, but for the defenders and midfielders there is no way of reviewing their match-by-match performances. Therefore we have to use a wider evidence base to make that judgement. We shouldn't of course be assuming that all of these greats were infallible superstars, but we have to recognise that there were some great players in this era who might not have the compelling proof we would normally expect of someone from the modern era. And we have to judge them accordingly. Otherwise it's pointless including them.

Just to sum up though, I did really enjoy that game for all the bickering and good luck in the rest of the competition to Edgar, @MJJ and @coolredwine

 

[antohan]

What have I done with Matthäus' image that he gets mentioned in the same breath as Cruyff in this draft?

It's absurd. I actually think EAP should pick hin as a Schweini upgrade.

Not sure he realised it was just you conveniently talking bollocks.

 

[Balu]

It's absurd. I actually think EAP should pick hin as a Schweini upgrade.

Yeah, that's actually a no-brainer. Schweini's Euro credentials aren't really great either.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Clearly there's only black and white. Matthäus can't be just great, he's either the best midfielder in the draft or shit .

Was one of those arguments where I had to rewatch it because I felt like my memory was tricking me completely. Didn't remember him having a stinker at all.

 

[antohan]

Was one of those arguments where I had to rewatch it because I felt like my memory was tricking me completely. Didn't remember him having a stinker at all.

It's bizarre. You see @MJJ considering not picking MVB to get Rijkaard and shift Desailly to a Schweini upgrade...

WTF? Seriously? What did Rijkaard do as a Euro midfielder that Matthäus doesn't beat comfortably?

Bizarre.

 

[Balu]

If Theon didn't call him the best midfielder in the draft, no one would have criticised him at all. I'm pretty sure of that, it's just one of those draft moments when a bit of hyperbole totally backfired.

 

[Annahnomoss]

If Theon didn't call him the best midfielder in the draft, no one would have criticised him at all. I'm pretty sure of that, it's just one of those draft moments when a bit of hyperbole totally backfired.

Yup, sums it up very well. People respond with pure criticism to show he wasn't the best and then the manager has to get defensive about it, or at least almost always will.

I really liked Theon's team actually.

 

[Theon]

If Theon didn't call him the best midfielder in the draft, no one would have criticised him at all. I'm pretty sure of that, it's just one of those draft moments when a bit of hyperbole totally backfired.

I think he is the best midfielder in the draft.

The ridiculous hyperbole was claiming Van Moer was as good or better than Matthaus.

 

[antohan]

If Theon didn't call him the best midfielder in the draft, no one would have criticised him at all. I'm pretty sure of that, it's just one of those draft moments when a bit of hyperbole totally backfired.

Indeed.

Anyhow, this is all setting it up nicely for a triumphant return from shitland

I was stunned he was overlooked last time and can sort of understand why others passed on him with eyes on Germans in other roles, but it is a no-brainer for @Edgar Allan Pillow seeing as any RB upgrade will still be "the biggest mismatch on the pitch" against Dzajic/Czibor/Elkjaer. Not even Burgnich could do anything about it

 

[harms]

Indeed.

Anyhow, this is all setting it up nicely for a triumphant return from shitland

I was stunned he was overlooked last time and can sort of understand why others passed on him with eyes on Germans in other roles, but it is a no-brainer for @Edgar Allan Pillow seeing as any RB upgrade will still be "the biggest mismatch on the pitch" against Dzajic/Czibor/Elkjaer. Not even Burgnich could do anything about it

You're just winding up Theon here, aren't you?

 

[antohan]

You're just winding up Theon here, aren't you?

My favourite passtime.

@Theon

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

RB upgrade will still be "the biggest mismatch on the pitch" against Dzajic/Czibor/Elkjaer. Not even Burgnich could do anything about it

I rate Durkovic and he was in fine form in 1960. He was considered to be more of a complete player than Stankovic due to his versatility. I think he'll hold his own against all of those wingers you mention.

 

[MJJ]

It's bizarre. You see @MJJ considering not picking MVB to get Rijkaard and shift Desailly to a Schweini upgrade...

WTF? Seriously? What did Rijkaard do as a Euro midfielder that Matthäus doesn't beat comfortably?

Bizarre.

I already suggested Matthäus to EAP and it got shut down. Had to move Deschamps as @Edgar Allan Pillow really wanted him and that's the only way we could have fitted him in.

 

[antohan]

I already suggested Matthäus to EAP and it got shut down. Had to move Deschamps as @Edgar Allan Pillow really wanted him and that's the only way we could have fitted him in.

Nuts.

 

[Theon]

Not even Burgnich could do anything about it

No idea what you're trying to get at here.

 

[antohan]

No idea what you're trying to get at here.

That if Burgnich couldn't do it why even bother looking for safety at RB? Just focus on adding arguably the best midfield in the draft to the best attacking trio in the draft.

 

[Theon]

That if Burgnich couldn't do it why even bother looking for safety at RB? Just focus on adding arguably the best midfield in the draft to the best attacking trio in the draft.

Ah right. Aye, agreed.

I thought you were suggesting that I was overselling Burgnich in suggesting that he was well placed to counter Dzajic.