Television The Falcon & The Winter Soldier

Hamnat

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Not going to lie. I legit watched the zemo dancing extended cut Marvel released on YouTube. I'm here for the fan service.

As for TV the episode wow.
Dora Milaje showdown to start was awesome. That was the moment Walker knew for sure he had to juice up. Getting clowned like that by humans was the last straw. When he grabbed Ayo's arm/shoulder like that, holy shit. I knew she was going to stomp the shit outta him.

They have done the progression of USAgent aka John Walker well. He wasn't "evil" from the start. But he was desperate for recognition. Desperate to be the best, to be recognized, to be liked. We saw it all through the first 4 episodes. The pressure building. The constant failure. He tried to reach out to Bucky and Sam and failed. He tried to find the Flagsmashers alone and failed. He was so far behind Bucky and Sam he just had to go follow them and catch up.

The desperation and pressure was executed well until you just knew he would want to level up. And those same personality flaws that led him to want the serum amplified how bad he would get when he took it. We saw that immediately.
 
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ivaldo

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They've done a terrific job with this series. Every character is balanced and their motives are realistic.
 

Adamsk7

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Loved this episode. What they are doing blurring the lines not giving us a typical “villain” is brilliant - I loved how Zemo turned the screw calling Karli a supremacist and planted that seed in Sam’s mind, which he then put to Karli and she was kind of thinking like “maybe I am....ah crap”
 

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I really like this. It's well constructed, intriguing and everyone except Sam is a grey character. Obviously not going to make it to the best lists of anything but by superhero movie standards it's a cut above. Simply because they're spending time discussing motives and fairness
 

RedDevilRoshi

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Best episode so far.

Apologies if already posted, but how many episodes are there gonna be?
 

ha_rooney

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Nice! I presume the finale will be over 1 hour long too if the next one is?
I’d guess so. I remember reading that they were aiming for around 6 hours total runtime for the series so I guess the finale will be closer to an hour as the previous episodes have been 50-55 mins.

The 6 hour total runtime seems to be what they’re aiming for with the MCU TV series - Loki will apparently be 6 hours over 6 episodes too & WandaVision was a similar length, albeit being over 9 episodes. So far I think the pacing has been really good.
 

harms

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I loved how everyone gave Walker the time to say goodbye to his friend, they literally stopped mid-fight and even let him go... and then every supersoldier reacted faster and fled the scene while Falcon and Winter Soldier watched them do it (surely they've seen enough death not to be completely thrown away by it, especially since it's a character that they have no real emotional connection with).

I get that it's supposed to be a shocking moment, but supersoldiers already killed people and, well, people were flying into the walls, getting burned by Falcon's engine etc. left and right — how did they all suddenly realised that this impact was lethal and why did it shock them so much... if he was, I don't know, decapitated on the spot it would've been more understandable (there's casualties and then there's gruesome, graphic violence).

Same goes for Zemo's escape... I mean, they were all there for him and they all are supposed to have brilliant reaction and ability to quickly assess the situation around them since they've spent most of their adult lives fighting, often with multiple opponents at the time, but Zemo just walks out.

Good episode nonetheless.
 

pascell

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I loved how everyone gave Walker the time to say goodbye to his friend, they literally stopped mid-fight and even let him go... and then every supersoldier reacted faster and fled the scene while Falcon and Winter Soldier watched them do it (surely they've seen enough death not to be completely thrown away by it, especially since it's a character that they have no real emotional connection with).

I get that it's supposed to be a shocking moment, but supersoldiers already killed people and, well, people were flying into the walls, getting burned by Falcon's engine etc. left and right — how did they all suddenly realised that this impact was lethal and why did it shock them so much... if he was, I don't know, decapitated on the spot it would've been more understandable (there's casualties and then there's gruesome, graphic violence).

Same goes for Zemo's escape... I mean, they were all there for him and they all are supposed to have brilliant reaction and ability to quickly assess the situation around them since they've spent most of their adult lives fighting, often with multiple opponents at the time, but Zemo just walks out.

Good episode nonetheless.
I think its because they don't want to be seen as supremists or terrorists, killing people who don't have to be killed, or kill them as part of collateral damage. They only kill people who are involved in the fight against them.

They didn't expect him to be within the fight as they tied him up and had no intention of killing him. So for him to then be killed shocked them, as it was sort of a realisation they're no better than terrorists etc that kill to prove a point or collateral damage.

Thats my take anyway, im probably wrong :lol:
 

Van Piorsing

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Pacing in this is almost on par with Mission Impossible or Jason Bourne movies.

Good, almost great.
 

unchanged_lineup

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I loved how everyone gave Walker the time to say goodbye to his friend, they literally stopped mid-fight and even let him go... and then every supersoldier reacted faster and fled the scene while Falcon and Winter Soldier watched them do it (surely they've seen enough death not to be completely thrown away by it, especially since it's a character that they have no real emotional connection with).

I get that it's supposed to be a shocking moment, but supersoldiers already killed people and, well, people were flying into the walls, getting burned by Falcon's engine etc. left and right — how did they all suddenly realised that this impact was lethal and why did it shock them so much... if he was, I don't know, decapitated on the spot it would've been more understandable (there's casualties and then there's gruesome, graphic violence).

Same goes for Zemo's escape... I mean, they were all there for him and they all are supposed to have brilliant reaction and ability to quickly assess the situation around them since they've spent most of their adult lives fighting, often with multiple opponents at the time, but Zemo just walks out.

Good episode nonetheless.
I'm enjoying the show, but felt the funeral scene was also fairly meh for not having any real emotional connection to the person who died. Could be down to the actors too though, because Bucky's "breaking free" scene was equally short but much more emotional.
 

ha_rooney

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I loved how everyone gave Walker the time to say goodbye to his friend, they literally stopped mid-fight and even let him go... and then every supersoldier reacted faster and fled the scene while Falcon and Winter Soldier watched them do it (surely they've seen enough death not to be completely thrown away by it, especially since it's a character that they have no real emotional connection with).

I get that it's supposed to be a shocking moment, but supersoldiers already killed people and, well, people were flying into the walls, getting burned by Falcon's engine etc. left and right — how did they all suddenly realised that this impact was lethal and why did it shock them so much... if he was, I don't know, decapitated on the spot it would've been more understandable (there's casualties and then there's gruesome, graphic violence).

Same goes for Zemo's escape... I mean, they were all there for him and they all are supposed to have brilliant reaction and ability to quickly assess the situation around them since they've spent most of their adult lives fighting, often with multiple opponents at the time, but Zemo just walks out.

Good episode nonetheless.
On Hoskins’ death, I interpreted the shock from Bucky & Sam to be more on waiting to see how Walker reacts after seeing his partner killed rather than the death itself. They’d already discussed earlier in the episode that he’s not right in the head & after Zemo’s talk about how the serum corrupts users, I think that’s why they paused/were shocked for that moment & focused on seeing what Walker would do.
 

harms

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I think its because they don't want to be seen as supremists or terrorists, killing people who don't have to be killed, or kill them as part of collateral damage. They only kill people who are involved in the fight against them.
I kinda understand the idea behind it, but 1. She killed what, 11 people in the explosion already? If she wouldn't, it would've been a major, major thing, like Batman killing someone, but they really undermined the effect by spreading this dramatic realisation over a much longer time 2. People were flying into the walls left and right, but suddenly this throw was seen by everyone and everyone instantly understood that this one was fatal (and they didn't have the luxury that we as viewers had with the foreshadowing & dramatic close ups).
 

Hamnat

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I kinda understand the idea behind it, but 1. She killed what, 11 people in the explosion already? If she wouldn't, it would've been a major, major thing, like Batman killing someone, but they really undermined the effect by spreading this dramatic realisation over a much longer time 2. People were flying into the walls left and right, but suddenly this throw was seen by everyone and everyone instantly understood that this one was fatal (and they didn't have the luxury that we as viewers had with the foreshadowing & dramatic close ups).
Seems more like the sudden realization they went to far and their plans had spiraled of control again. They had taken measures specifically to not kill anyone except Walker. Lamar was supposed to be tied up away from the scene. Sam and Bucky were not even supposed to be there in the first place. If not for them being notified by Sharon and the satellite footage Sam was supposed to be away with Karli alone.

Everyone there was a supersoldier except Sam and Lamar who came in at the last minute. Even walked asked what's with all the knives. After killing Lamar I think the tension was as palpable there as we felt it watching. They knew any restraint was over. Run our fight to the death at that point.

The begging scene before Walked killed the guy echoed that realization he knew he was going to be murdered. He tried the last ditch reasoning that it wasn't him that went to far and killed Lamar.

Next episode will be interesting. There will be whatever ramifications worldwide with seeing the brutal killing by America's symbol. Flagsmashers will probably get even more sympathy publicly.
 

SalfordRed18

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Great episode. I absolutely love the scenes with Zemo.

Also, is it just me, or does fake Cap look a lot like Harry Maguire?
Harry Kane. Fake cap is Harry Kane.
 

el3mel

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Holy shit the ending was so dark. I didn't expect it to go this way.

This series has to be the most "comic booky" story done in MCU ? Watching the episodes almost feel like reading a comic book issue.
 

Hoof The Ball

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I thought that Captain Kane's scene with his friend, talking about his bravery medals and how disillusioned he is because of the things he had to do in Afghanistan, was very good character development. I loved his reasoning that this Captain American gig is the first thing that makes him feel like he's doing genuine good, because it provides a realistic motivation and puts pressure in its proper perspective. It's not just about filling Steve Rogers' shoes; it's about not failing at the one thing he feels good about himself for pursuing.
 

el3mel

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I found the actor who's playing the new Cap to be doing a marvelous job, probably the best acting in this series so far. He really knows how to get on your nerve when he's annoying but at the same time curious to see how he'll develop or be interested in his background.
 

Gambit

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I found the actor who's playing the new Cap to be doing a marvelous job, probably the best acting in this series so far. He really knows how to get on your nerve when he's annoying but at the same time curious to see how he'll develop or be interested in his background.
Kurt Russell's son.
 

Reditus

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I’m loving it now too.

Disney know how to make good tv. From Mandalorian to Wanda and this they are nailing it
 

unchanged_lineup

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I found the actor who's playing the new Cap to be doing a marvelous job, probably the best acting in this series so far. He really knows how to get on your nerve when he's annoying but at the same time curious to see how he'll develop or be interested in his background.
He does really good turning-into-a-psycho too. His self-esteem and restraint melting away was palpable.

On a side note, they're shooting in a lot of locations I know well from living in Prague :D I haven't seen that place him and Lamar had the coffee in about ten years. There's a hanging statue of a dead horse by David Cerny behind where Lamar was sitting.
 

Sylar

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I really like this. It's well constructed, intriguing and everyone except Sam is a grey character. Obviously not going to make it to the best lists of anything but by superhero movie standards it's a cut above. Simply because they're spending time discussing motives and fairness
Has Civil War vibes to it.

I think most people have mentioned what I wanted to say. But overall, I think Zemo is fantastic. The way hes playing things is great.

The ending is obviously the big scene with the Shield covered in blood, and all the people watching and recording it. Great visual.

However some of the 'talks' through the episode were great. Good way to add more to the characters and their motivations. So well done.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Loving the series so far - Marvel know how to make good characters great.

The shield dripping with blood of an innocent life, taken in sheer anger by the new Cap as a breaking point after all his frustrations building up - just wow.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Seems more like the sudden realization they went to far and their plans had spiraled of control again. They had taken measures specifically to not kill anyone except Walker. Lamar was supposed to be tied up away from the scene. Sam and Bucky were not even supposed to be there in the first place. If not for them being notified by Sharon and the satellite footage Sam was supposed to be away with Karli alone.

Everyone there was a supersoldier except Sam and Lamar who came in at the last minute. Even walked asked what's with all the knives. After killing Lamar I think the tension was as palpable there as we felt it watching. They knew any restraint was over. Run our fight to the death at that point.

The begging scene before Walked killed the guy echoed that realization he knew he was going to be murdered. He tried the last ditch reasoning that it wasn't him that went to far and killed Lamar.

Next episode will be interesting. There will be whatever ramifications worldwide with seeing the brutal killing by America's symbol. Flagsmashers will probably get even more sympathy publicly.
Keep in mind that guy said that Captain America was his hero when he was younger.
 

Drifter

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Things really picked up in that episode. Loved the Dora Milaje scene and the ending took an unexpected dark turn. The next episode could be even better with talk of a big cameo.
 

reelworld

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I found that conversation Walker and Hoskins had was interesting. Everybody think that his actions in Afghanistan was heroic, and that partly makes him worthy of the shield.

But John didn't think so. US involvement in Afghanistan was always sketchy at best. And he may not making the right decisions in that time. He was considered a hero not because what he did was right, but because it servers US interest best.
Also need to consider that Steve Rogers emerged on a simpler time. He was only challenged when he's already a fully formed Captain America. Who knows whether he'll make the same decisions when he was put in the same situation as Walker in Afghanistan
 

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I found the actor who's playing the new Cap to be doing a marvelous job, probably the best acting in this series so far. He really knows how to get on your nerve when he's annoying but at the same time curious to see how he'll develop or be interested in his background.
Definitely getting some Jack Gleeson / Joffrey vibes - no better endorsement for the portrayal of a villain!
 

Oldyella

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I found that conversation Walker and Hoskins had was interesting. Everybody think that his actions in Afghanistan was heroic, and that partly makes him worthy of the shield.

But John didn't think so. US involvement in Afghanistan was always sketchy at best. And he may not making the right decisions in that time. He was considered a hero not because what he did was right, but because it servers US interest best.
Also need to consider that Steve Rogers emerged on a simpler time. He was only challenged when he's already a fully formed Captain America. Who knows whether he'll make the same decisions when he was put in the same situation as Walker in Afghanistan
I don't think Steve Rogers even gets as far as signing up if its Afghanistan.

I'm loving what they are doing so far, Walker has been really well done so far. Interesting where they go with him from here.
 

Mockney

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I don’t understand what the Flag Smashers want? Like, what is their aim exactly? They seem to kind of nebulously want the world to go back to “how it was” but what does that mean? Are they going to kill half the population again!? They’re refugees, but do they want a home? A big farm for them and all their mates? What!? It feels like there’s a whole expositional plot strand missing from their story, and it’s stopping me from really giving too much of a shit about them.

Also (as is customary with these things) the coding of the heroes and villains within the series is confusing. By which I don’t mean “the line is blurred between yadayadayada” I mean the way the characters in the story treat people depending on how the series codes them, rather than what they actually do....So Zemo is right about everything (as he was in Captain America tbf) and has a sympathetic backstory, but is treated by Sam like a villain, whilst Lil Ms Flag smasher is shown to be equally as ruthless a terrorist, with a much less defined backstory, but is treated as someone with whom he sympathies, and is constantly at pains to reason with.... and tbh neither of them seem remotely as villanous as Wanda from Wandvision, who only a couple of weeks ago just strolled off to a log cabin retreat after brain raping an entire town, but is coded “heroic” because she felt a bit bad about it at the end (all whilst the “villain” of her series got arrested for... reasons? - just being the villain I guess? It was never really explained)

Other than that it’s fine. It’s getting better. Bruhl and Lil Russell are the best things about it by a long way. The blonde girl from Captain America is awful, but is patently going to be really important, especially now I’ve said how awful she is.
 
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AltiUn

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Really subtle Heineken product placement this week.
 

Hamnat

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I thought this episode was extremely powerful and well written. Every episode doesnt need 25 minutes of knock down drag out fights with choreography and explosions to be effective and impactful.


The opening consequences and Walker takedown was fantastic all the way through.

Revisiting the Isaiah thread had to happen and it was extremely well done here. You get to Sam's need to fully understand the hidden history and dark bitterness of what the United States did to this man and his life. It has powerful meaning and real life implications and parallels obviously that are not just used as a token "woke message".

They tie them into the valid choices Sam is grappling with in being handed a mantle by a man who could never understand those implications for Sam as a black man. That doesnt change Steve's character at all. He didn't know or realize how it would be for Sam. That doesn't mean he would make a different choice either passing the shield on to Sam.

The Bucky and Sam bonding moments in Louisiana were amazing. This was the quality time they needed to bond and relate to one another as individuals outside of having it be about Steve. Now you can see that they truly made the progress they started to make in episode 2 in the therapy session. Bucky started digging deep there and allowing Sam into the inner workings of whats happening with him. But, here we see Sam letting Bucky into his inner life and feelings as well. Bucky apologizes for not seeing the additional struggle being a black man taking on the role of Captain America would mean. That was really deep. You could really feel the connection in those scenes. Not just their usual comedic banter, but the familial, friendly developments of understanding each other on a much deeper level. I loved that.

I haven't seen reactions yet but I can imagine the Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine intro to be lackluster to some people who were getting "Myphisto" level hype. I don't follow that side of Marvel enough to be familiar with her to be honest. Or to be jump out of my seat excited. So I will let that build as it does. I am glad they kept Walker around though. Wyatt is doing an excellent job with him and there is no reason we shouldn't see more US Agent elsewhere in the MCU. Its great casting and a great origin story so far.


Right now the series as a whole to me is at about a solid 8.5 out of 10. We are getting really excellent character work and buildup of Sam and Bucky in particular. We got an excellent love to hate him origin story of Fake cap USAgent so far. I think the writers are deftly handling the deeper racial narratives and political undertones that you would think Disney wouldn't really address like this well. There will be some who bash them for the racial undertones, but it is so relevant especially to what is happening specifically right now with racial justice particularly in America.

With one episode left they still have a lot to do honestly. This show needs another season. It's built for more honestly. They have a lot of ways to keep going unlike Wandavision which was clearly meant for one contained season and the rest being handled in other properties.
 

ha_rooney

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Solid episode & sets up the finale really nicely.

The scene between Sam & Isaiah was really powerful & I’m glad they didn’t hide from explicitly saying certain things - made the scene authentic & reflective of the real world. Sam accepting his role as Cap after understanding the history of what happened to Isaiah & the events of this season makes him a more worthy Cap than Steve just handing him the shield.

Walker is insane & him trying to cosplay with a shield that doesn’t have vibranium might not end well, but I felt his comment to the committee that “I did everything you told me to do. You built me” was a home truth. You can talk about the murder he committed & it’s wrong, but he was trained to kill by the very people now judging him, who also get away without any accountability whilst he gets tossed aside to deal with whatever shit he has to deal with (although he should be in jail). I don’t have sympathy for his character, but that was a great point well made.

Looks like Zemo’s done. His was a nice ending with Bucky choosing not to kill him despite Zemo taking the liberty to cross his name off expecting death.

Looking ahead to next week & some of the Easter eggs from this episode...Sharon surely has to be The Power Broker, or at the very least working with him. They’ve hinted at that way too much for it to be a red herring. Why she’s willing to kill Sam I’m not sure, unless it’s for revenge as she never got pardoned?!

The scene in the park with Karli & then the security guard at the end gave me Hydra vibes from Winter Soldier... which links to Val’s character...


For them to casually introduce Madame Hydra is awesome...aside for Hydra possibly still being around, could her introducing herself to Walker & telling him to wait for her call be hinting at formation of The Thunderbolts?!
 

Hamnat

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Solid episode & sets up the finale really nicely.

The scene between Sam & Isaiah was really powerful & I’m glad they didn’t hide from explicitly saying certain things - made the scene authentic & reflective of the real world. Sam accepting his role as Cap after understanding the history of what happened to Isaiah & the events of this season makes him a more worthy Cap than Steve just handing him the shield.

Walker is insane & him trying to cosplay with a shield that doesn’t have vibranium might not end well, but I felt his comment to the committee that “I did everything you told me to do. You built me” was a home truth. You can talk about the murder he committed & it’s wrong, but he was trained to kill by the very people now judging him, who also get away without any accountability whilst he gets tossed aside to deal with whatever shit he has to deal with (although he should be in jail). I don’t have sympathy for his character, but that was a great point well made.

Looks like Zemo’s done. His was a nice ending with Bucky choosing not to kill him despite Zemo taking the liberty to cross his name off expecting death.

Looking ahead to next week & some of the Easter eggs from this episode...Sharon surely has to be The Power Broker, or at the very least working with him. They’ve hinted at that way too much for it to be a red herring. Why she’s willing to kill Sam I’m not sure, unless it’s for revenge as she never got pardoned?!

The scene in the park with Karli & then the security guard at the end gave me Hydra vibes from Winter Soldier... which links to Val’s character...


For them to casually introduce Madame Hydra is awesome...aside for Hydra possibly still being around, could her introducing herself to Walker & telling him to wait for her call be hinting at formation of The Thunderbolts?!
Powerbroker:They are going to have to do ALOT next episode to make Sharon "evil" and the Powerbroker. They haven't done any of the work to make her want to be a terrorist or hurt Sam/Bucky. It's far more believable if shes undercover and working for or trying to infiltrate his network. I was thinking Val could be both the powerbroker and who Sharon is working for or infiltrating. Since she knows Walker took the serum and she says its a great choice etc. Her starting Thunderbolts or wanting to use USAgent in any other capacity would be cool.