Television The Falcon & The Winter Soldier

ha_rooney

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Powerbroker:They are going to have to do ALOT next episode to make Sharon "evil" and the Powerbroker. They haven't done any of the work to make her want to be a terrorist or hurt Sam/Bucky. It's far more believable if shes undercover and working for or trying to infiltrate his network. I was thinking Val could be both the powerbroker and who Sharon is working for or infiltrating. Since she knows Walker took the serum and she says its a great choice etc. Her starting Thunderbolts or wanting to use USAgent in any other capacity would be cool.
I’m leaning towards her being The Power Broker based on the influence & power she has amassed in Madripoor. I don’t think she’s able to do that unless she’s a top level criminal herself. She’s the one who got GSP out of jail, knowing he wants to go after Sam & I’ll bet she was the one who shot Selby dead in Madripoor. Her morals seem to be skewed from the last time we saw her in Civil War.

If she is the Power Broker, I don’t think it’s necessary for her to be evil, rather I think her motives are simply to put herself first & protect her empire - she put Steve first last time & was made a criminal & had to go on the run. She showed her anger when she met Bucky & Sam by saying they got pardoned, she’s still on the run. Even though Sam promised her a pardon, I think she’s used her SHIELD skills to create her network & now is quite happy with that life. With Peggy dead, I don’t think she has any other family either, so no need to go back.
 

Hamnat

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I’m leaning towards her being The Power Broker based on the influence & power she has amassed in Madripoor. I don’t think she’s able to do that unless she’s a top level criminal herself. She’s the one who got GSP out of jail, knowing he wants to go after Sam & I’ll bet she was the one who shot Selby dead in Madripoor. Her morals seem to be skewed from the last time we saw her in Civil War.

If she is the Power Broker, I don’t think it’s necessary for her to be evil, rather I think her motives are simply to put herself first & protect her empire - she put Steve first last time & was made a criminal & had to go on the run. She showed her anger when she met Bucky & Sam by saying they got pardoned, she’s still on the run. Even though Sam promised her a pardon, I think she’s used her SHIELD skills to create her network & now is quite happy with that life. With Peggy dead, I don’t think she has any other family either, so no need to go back.
Motivations I completely understand where they are leading us to believe she is the Powerbroker and is jaded and betrayed and just a girl trying to survive after doing the right thing all her life. But, as the show has done so well with other characters and motivations I personally will not be satisfied with only that. If she is evil I need to SEE more of the motivation. They decided to bring this storyline up, so it would be a chunk off my enjoyment if it isn't handled as well as other character moments. It is too big of a leap , and too big a character shift for me personally without a significant showing of how she got there. And this show is about Sam and Bucky ultimately I don't think giving that much time to Sharon in the finale for that to be the payoff is worth it. Undercover spy/secret agent with a clear agenda respecting her past with Sam and Bucky makes so much more sense to me.
 

Oldyella

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Starting to think that Russell Jr. is a very, very good actor.
Yeah definitely. Hope his story doesn't end with this series.

This was a great episode. Aside from the brutal opening fight it was more a character piece putting everyone in place for the final episode. Probably saved on some budget too!
 

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Yeah definitely. Hope his story doesn't end with this series.

This was a great episode. Aside from the brutal opening fight it was more a character piece putting everyone in place for the final episode. Probably saved on some budget too!
They had a tonne of close-ups of him in this episode and he carried them all. He's got a good range.
 

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Random thought... is this show actually showing Americans what a large part of the world thinks of them? :D

Racist - Isaiah
Supremacist/Exceptionalist - Zemo says the Avengers are also supremacists and not different from Karli
World Police - Walker extrajudicially killing yer man on the streets of Prague, I mean, Riga.
 

Sylar

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Great episode, and the acting was really well done by a lot of the characters / actors.

Im hoping with Sharon Carter, theyre just teasing things for the future rather than a big reveal next episode (unless its at the end to lead to a new season down the line).
I know some dont like Mackie, but I have no issues with him. Think hes done fine in the roles hes been given especially the Marvel movies and now show.
 

FrankDrebin

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I think Mackie is also doing a very good job. Little bemused by the criticism if I'm being honest.

Cant say I can pick many faults with the performances so far.
 

ha_rooney

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Really good discussion on the show and the parallels between what’s happening in the series & events in real life.

One of the things that I’ve really enjoyed is how the show has balanced reconciling real world issues with the superhero action of MCU, particularly with the symbolism of the shield.
 

rcoobc

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Filler episode that just happened to be the best episode in the damned show
 

Sylar

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Filler episode that just happened to be the best episode in the damned show
I was actually expecting some people to call it that and pleasantly surprised the first mention was said in jest
 

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This blows WandaVision out of the water. A series that was ultimately very forgettable. Loved this last episode.
 

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I don’t understand what the Flag Smashers want? Like, what is their aim exactly? They seem to kind of nebulously want the world to go back to “how it was” but what does that mean? Are they going to kill half the population again!? They’re refugees, but do they want a home? A big farm for them and all their mates? What!? It feels like there’s a whole expositional plot strand missing from their story, and it’s stopping me from really giving too much of a shit about them.

Also (as is customary with these things) the coding of the heroes and villains within the series is confusing. By which I don’t mean “the line is blurred between yadayadayada” I mean the way the characters in the story treat people depending on how the series codes them, rather than what they actually do....So Zemo is right about everything (as he was in Captain America tbf) and has a sympathetic backstory, but is treated by Sam like a villain, whilst Lil Ms Flag smasher is shown to be equally as ruthless a terrorist, with a much less defined backstory, but is treated as someone with whom he sympathies, and is constantly at pains to reason with.... and tbh neither of them seem remotely as villanous as Wanda from Wandvision, who only a couple of weeks ago just strolled off to a log cabin retreat after brain raping an entire town, but is coded “heroic” because she felt a bit bad about it at the end (all whilst the “villain” of her series got arrested for... reasons? - just being the villain I guess? It was never really explained)

Other than that it’s fine. It’s getting better. Bruhl and Lil Russell are the best things about it by a long way. The blonde girl from Captain America is awful, but is patently going to be really important, especially now I’ve said how awful she is.
Same here, I'm enjoying the show, but even with one episode to go, I don't get what their aim is.
 

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Same here, I'm enjoying the show, but even with one episode to go, I don't get what their aim is.
I was just thinking this afternoon that they could easily have focused on just Sam/Bucky/Zemo/Isaiah and had the flag smashers as something shady leading up to a cliffhanger and season 2 enemy. Would have given more time to build their story and make the audience invested in them. They're paper thin as it is.
 

Sylar

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I was just thinking this afternoon that they could easily have focused on just Sam/Bucky/Zemo/Isaiah and had the flag smashers as something shady leading up to a cliffhanger and season 2 enemy. Would have given more time to build their story and make the audience invested in them. They're paper thin as it is.
Theyve made them too terroristy...

It feels very cliched way to make them obvious badguys. I think the story behind what they want is good, especially the stuff with refugees and all. But the intentional blowing things up is way OTT, it should have been more subtle than that.
 

Gambit

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RE the Flag Smashers. From what I can gather. During the Blip, most countries just didn't care about their borders anymore. People were pretty much moving around and living were they wanted making lives as there was a shortage of workers and opportunities were more plentiful. Nature was restoring itself and there and life was pretty good. Once the snap was reversed, the countries started up again with their borders and economic policies, leaving a population of about 20 million displaced suddenly who are now forced to find new homes. The vote that they are interfering with is a forced removal to refugee camps for them. So the flag smashers want a return to how it was during the blip with no countries, no borders and they are fighting for the rights of the 20 million people.
 

Ramos

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Love how they are handling the John Walker arc. We saw it coming a mile away, but it's the best thing in the show for me.

Wyatt Russel does a great job. Portraying the descent of these kind of tragic, Harvey Dent-like characters isn't easy (see Anakin). I don't know the comics, so no idea if he turns full-blown evil or more like an anti-hero.

The Flagsmashers do nothing for me either. Not even their leader.
 

harms

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I think they really didn’t put much thought into them. They wanted to create grey-ish movement that comments on a relevant issue, but ultimately failed to properly explain their motivation (even though technically you can make it out like @Gambit did, it’s really underdeveloped). They got caught up between two villains and the Flag Smashers ended up being poorly written. The idea was very interesting but they really should’ve given them more time at the beginning.
 

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Even with the Flag Smashers admittedly being not as fully developed as some of the other storylines. I think they did so well fleshing out Sam/Bucky setting them up for their future MCU paths clearing them to be solid team on their own as the main stars now. Bringing John Walker in confidently with a great love to hate him origin story that can easily lead to much more from him in the MCU as US Agent.

We got great introduction to some tough themes and scenes with Isaiah and introduced Eli that could clearly lead to more from them developing Patriot and the Young Avengers.

I have kind of baked in the Flagsmasher storyline as just not going to be that exciting and they could have handled it better but will see in the finale. They aren't awful. Its just we never got a real here is out manifesto moment. THIS is what we plan to do to make the entire world drop all borders and let people live together as one people like before the Blip.

The biggest issue thats left dangling for me is Powerbroker. That whole thing could either be awesome or a dud. If they go the route of Sharon being powerbroker as they are leaving breadcrumbs all over the place. There better be a REALLY good explanation there. Because, I don't buy her suddenly becoming a villian and putting Sam especially in harms way without his knowledge by hiring a killer to help the Flag Smashers hunt him down as we see at the end of last episode.

But, there is clearly room for a much more in character agenda that she is working undercover to achieve something else and its all a misdirect. Even though the show isnt about her. They made Powerbroker a big deal. They need to stick the landing there and I have faith they can with how well the character writing has been on everything else except the underwhelming Flag Smashers maybe.
 

ha_rooney

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Wyatt’s performance as Walker has been superb. If you focus on his scenes as Cap you see he’s unhinged focusing on getting the mission done, whatever it takes. But when you see the scenes of him just being himself, you appreciate he’s struggling to live up to the expectations of being Cap and questioning the decisions he’s made in uniform (as Cap or before in the army). I loved the senate scene with him saying to them “you built me” & he’s just carrying out the mission. He views the Cap role as a soldier, whereas Steve saw Cap/shield as something more and understood the importance of doing the right thing rather than just being a “good soldier”.

Hopefully the link to Val plays out as I suspect & we see more of him in future series/movies.
 

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It’s a fantastic series. Wyatt Russell is so good as Walker - in a similar way to Thanos, you can understand his thinking without necessarily agreeing with it and that makes a good antagonist.
what I loved about this episode, other than the very direct address of racism (which was great to see - no eluding to things, just straight to the point), was the way I really felt like I was embracing Sam as the next Cap. Before this series started I was very much “Steve Rogers is Captain America” and I didn’t want Falcon, Bucky or Walker as Cap. By the end of this episode I was fully on board and that was down to the masterful way they showed Sam’s character and the events that led him to the decision to take up the mantle.

The negatives for me are small - mainly the poor performances of the Flag Smasher characters, which takes me out of it a bit, and the Mandripor/Power broker thread which hasn’t been fleshed out enough. We do have another hour or so remaining so there is still time for a good conclusion to that though.
 

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It’s a fantastic series. Wyatt Russell is so good as Walker - in a similar way to Thanos, you can understand his thinking without necessarily agreeing with it and that makes a good antagonist.
what I loved about this episode, other than the very direct address of racism (which was great to see - no eluding to things, just straight to the point), was the way I really felt like I was embracing Sam as the next Cap. Before this series started I was very much “Steve Rogers is Captain America” and I didn’t want Falcon, Bucky or Walker as Cap. By the end of this episode I was fully on board and that was down to the masterful way they showed Sam’s character and the events that led him to the decision to take up the mantle.

The negatives for me are small - mainly the poor performances of the Flag Smasher characters, which takes me out of it a bit, and the Mandripor/Power broker thread which hasn’t been fleshed out enough. We do have another hour or so remaining so there is still time for a good conclusion to that though.
I think he's extremely good at emoting. There are a couple of scenes I had to rewind because I was thinking, "Oh wow". One moment was when Bucky was getting the upper hand in their fight and he got in a range of emotions from "Oh feck!" to "How can this happen to me after I took the serum" in the space of a second :D

I also think part of the reason I'm impressed is because I totally didn't expect it from him. He was a somewhat one-dimensional brash dude early on who was somewhat on the edge of a crisis of confidence. The way he's fallen right off the cliff of sanity since then has been intriguing to watch.
 

Sylar

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And as said, it's very hard to take this forward with a new captain America but this series has done a great job of gearing people towards it and accepting it
 

Mockney

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RE the Flag Smashers. From what I can gather. During the Blip, most countries just didn't care about their borders anymore. People were pretty much moving around and living were they wanted making lives as there was a shortage of workers and opportunities were more plentiful. Nature was restoring itself and there and life was pretty good. Once the snap was reversed, the countries started up again with their borders and economic policies, leaving a population of about 20 million displaced suddenly who are now forced to find new homes. The vote that they are interfering with is a forced removal to refugee camps for them. So the flag smashers want a return to how it was during the blip with no countries, no borders and they are fighting for the rights of the 20 million people.
I mean, sure... but again... what does this actually mean? They want a world with no borders, and a return to how it was in the blip, but with the re-emerged 3 billion people in it? How does that work exactly? The world was only like that because it lost half the people...

If it’s just to fight for better conditions for the displaced 20m, then fine, but that hasn’t been communicated well at all...
 

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I mean, sure... but again... what does this actually mean? They want a world with no borders, and a return to how it was in the blip, but with the re-emerged 3 billion people in it? How does that work exactly? The world was only like that because it lost half the people...

If it’s just to fight for better conditions for the displaced 20m, then fine, but that hasn’t been communicated well at all...
Yeah, it's very weakly written. You end up having to give a lot of benefit of doubt in their scenes. Tropes are doing a lot of the legwork :D
 

Gambit

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I mean, sure... but again... what does this actually mean? They want a world with no borders, and a return to how it was in the blip, but with the re-emerged 3 billion people in it? How does that work exactly? The world was only like that because it lost half the people...

If it’s just to fight for better conditions for the displaced 20m, then fine, but that hasn’t been communicated well at all...
Think your reading too much into it. Baddies have slightly sympathetic motives. When they get punched it's grey and drama for our punchers to reflect on. Repeat formula.
 

matherto

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Really enjoyed the last episode (presuming it’s the last one?)

Set a lot of things up so enticing to carry on watching what they put out.

Still can’t forgive them for some of the absolutely horrendous green screen fighting early on though. I get they can’t do live action and it’s a superhero series/universe but it wasn’t so jarring in anything else they’ve put out.

I don’t know if it’s a spoiler to say the scene that I hated for it.
 

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I'm amused at how many digs and shots this series had at USA government. Finally a comic book live action who just says America isn't really that great country.
 

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A good ending I thought. It did feel like we rushed through the action somewhat to get everything closed off. Would happily take a second season.
 

OleBoiii

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Wait, is this actually good? Like really good and not just "better than expected" or "better than most Marvel stuff" or "good for being a superhero series".

Only asking the people who usually don't like Marvel/superhero stuff, obviously.
 

duffer

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Wait, is this actually good? Like really good and not just "better than expected" or "better than most Marvel stuff" or "good for being a superhero series".

Only asking the people who usually don't like Marvel/superhero stuff, obviously.
I doubt any of them are watching this, especially not mere hours after it's released!
 

Hamnat

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This finale was outstanding. I mean they finished this up and brought the series home in excellent fashion. There has to be a second season there are so many additional threads they can explore.

PowerbrokerI still don't buy Sharon as flat out evil. I'm going with her being replaced by an Evil Skrull leading into the Secret Invasion series. It would make perfect sense to the abrupt character shift and wanting access to government secrets. And for Secret Invasion to work some "known characters" from the MCU have to be infiltrated and replaced by Skrulls if its using the comic stories. Her removing the 'false face' at the GRC was foreshadowing imo

John WalkerWhat an amazing origin story for him. Wyatt has been stellar with this character. From making the audience hate him as Faux Cap to his downfall and transformation into USAgent hes been really good at this role. Theres so much room for him to be involved in the further MCU.
 

ha_rooney

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Sam’s speech to the GRC... nailed it :devil:
 

ha_rooney

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Thought that was an excellent finale to a very good season.

Each of the character arcs over the season were well developed. Bucky’s able to make peace with the past & Sam’s accepted the responsibilities to take over from Steve. I like how he’s almost had to earn the shield & appreciate what he represents as Cap over the season rather than just being given it. Zemo getting the final laugh was funny. Walker’s story was my favourite though & I'm glad he got some redemption and is able to become US Agent. Reckon we’ll see him & Zemo in another series/film yet to be announced.

Sharon being The Power Broker didn’t surprise me... first time I think I’ve got a prediction correct!!

I’m also happy that Disney/MCU didn’t shy away from discussing real world issues head on, but equally they did it without it being cheesy or forced. There were a number of powerful scenes & Sam’s speech really was something that can be taken & applied to in the real world.

The cinematography was really good. Aside from that dodgy truck fight, they didn’t hold back on the CGI for the action sequences. Cannot wait to see what they’ve got for future series, should get even better!

Overall really enjoyed it & looking forward to the next Phase 4 stuff :drool:
 

Gambit

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It was a good finale, what I expected, action. Lots of people hitting each other. I've enjoyed the series.

Sam’s speech to the GRC... nailed it :devil:
Thought it was a bit
 

kps88

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I thought the finale was a bit boring tbh. Lot's of fighting and cheesy speeches. This show was at its best when there was less action and more character development.