The Greatest Footballer of All Time

[Moby]

Messi is a very good athlete

No doubt but I wouldn't put him in Pele's tier in terms of physicality. One of the biggest reasons for Pele being so successful was that he was ahead of his generation in terms of the physical beastliness he brought to the game. Defenders had no idea what hit them, watching this absolute juggernaut with that massive frame take the ball past them at electric pace and dribbling.

We have all seen what is known as the greatest save of all time by Gordon Banks against Pele. Look at the leap of Pele in that move, absolutely dwarves everyone around him.


Just watching that makes you think the man literally had no weakness whatsoever for an attacking player. Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, etc are unreal on the ball in their own ways but so is this guy, and he comes with THAT kind of physical prowess. For me it is a never seen before or after combination of everything you can ask for from a forward at the very highest level.

 

[Bole Top]

Messi. didn't (couldn't) watch Pele.

 

[broccoli]

I think there's no doubt Maradona is\was more naturally gifted than Messi. The latter perfected his game through a sheltered growth up to a mechanical and highly efficient player. There are things Messi can't do that Diego could. Nevermind the bravery and virtuosity of El Pibe. I think world cup achievements are not that relevent comparing players. More important for me is their performance and grace while dominating a football match. Zidane did it as well as Ronaldinho but nothing like Diego.

On the other hand, the likes of Pele and Ronaldo9 had the perfect physical and technical combination that made them so superior. I will always have a soft spot for Ronaldo, his game was the most exciting ever, but Maradona was like he was a magician, his aura was something special, difficult to explain, almost superhero like.

 

[Gio]

No doubt but I wouldn't put him in Pele's tier in terms of physicality. One of the biggest reasons for Pele being so successful was that he was ahead of his generation in terms of the physical beastliness he brought to the game. Defenders had no idea what hit them, watching this absolute juggernaut with that massive frame take the ball past them at electric pace and dribbling.

We have all seen what is known as the greatest save of all time by Gordon Banks against Pele. Look at the leap of Pele in that move, absolutely dwarves everyone around him.


Just watching that makes you think the man literally had no weakness whatsoever for an attacking player. Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, etc are unreal on the ball in their own ways but so is this guy, and he comes with THAT kind of physical prowess. For me it is a never seen before or after combination of everything you can ask for from a forward at the very highest level.

Carlos Alberto's pass there is just gorgeous - always worth a re-watch.

If you're showcasing Pele's athleticism in 1970, probably worth adding his header up above Burgnich in the final.

 

[Synco]

Tier 1: Pele, Maradona, Messi
Tier 2: Cruyff, Di Stefano, C. Ronaldo, Beckenbauer, Platini, Best
Tier 3: Puskas, Garrincha, Eusebio, Zidane, Xavi, Matthaus, Baresi, Yashin, L. Ronaldo, Charlton, Van Basten, Zico, Ronaldinho

Tier 1 and 2 in order.

Looks nice for the most part.

Great that you included Xavi and Yashin.

-------------------------------------

And now for the inevitable nitpicking.

I would place Puskas and Xavi higher one tier and add Garrincha there as well.

Gerd Müller should be in the same tier as Eusébio as should *unpopular opinion incoming* Cristiano Ronaldo.

Not sure where to place Best, isn't his combination of spectacular ability, breathtaking peak performance and not-quite-fulfilled-promise extremely close to Ronaldinho's career?

From what footage I saw, Didi and Nílton Santos should definitely be included. Bobby Moore and Maldini might have a shout too, just like Iniesta.

(Lots of hearsay involved of course, since I'm not 70+ years old)

 

[Moby]

If you're showcasing Pele's athleticism in 1970, probably worth adding his header up above Burgnich in the final.

Indeed. The most iconic moment in the history of World Cups for my money, as it is considered worldwide as well.

 

[Revan]

Looks nice for the most part.

Great that you included Xavi and Yashin.

-------------------------------------

And now for the inevitable nitpicking.

I would place Puskas and Xavi higher one tier and add Garrincha there as well.

Gerd Müller should be in the same tier as Eusébio as should *unpopular opinion incoming* Cristiano Ronaldo.

Not sure where to place Best, isn't his combination of spectacular ability, breathtaking peak performance and not-quite-fulfilled-promise extremely close to Ronaldinho's career?

From what footage I saw, Didi and Nílton Santos should definitely be included. Bobby Moore and Maldini might have a shout too, just like Iniesta.

(Lots of hearsay involved of course, since I'm not 70+ years old)

Muller should probably be there, same about Didi, Santos, Moore, Iniesta and Maldini. When we are there, we can add Buffon, Banks, Zoff, Riijkard, Pirlo, Scholes, Henry and a few others. Didn't want to make a Tier 4 cause then I would have needed to include too many players, and I think that players can go one tier up or down, based on people's preference.

C. Ronaldo is definitely the most difficult one to rate, and based with who you're talking, he might be the greatest ever or a glorified Hernandez. I put him on Tier 2 mainly because of his three Ballon D'Ors (rate by authority) which is the same as Cruyff and Platini who are in the same tier. His trophy cabinet is also almost perfect, and he has been the best player of teams that won 3 UCL. His all round game until 5 years ago was very good (one of the best in the world) and he is the best goalscorer in a very long time. I think that second tier is fine for him, enough to be considered a great, but also to have a clear difference between him and the big three whose all round game was simply in an another level to him.

I think that at their peaks, Best was 'better' than Ronaldinho.

NB: I put better always in quotes, because by better I don't mean absolutely better, but better adjusted to the time and the conditions. For example, I think that De Gea is way better than Yashin, but Yashin is a better/greater keeper. I don't think that the greatest dribbler of all time Garrincha was any better at it that Nani and Robben, but you have to consider that when he played there was next to no medical help, food diets, pitches were bad, ball etc, so there should be some relative measurement of those things.

 

[Bole Top]

I know this has little to do with the thread, but I just had a look at all those clubs that Kempes played for at the end of his career. such a strange list. even those he has managed sound like they are made up. you would expect him to return to his homeland, but Indonesia? Austria? Albania? strange list.

 

[Moby]

mainly because of his three Ballon D'Ors

You can make that four, not much doubt in my mind that he has it sealed come January.

and he has been the best player of teams that won 3 UCL

One thing that gets a bit overlooked when discussing him is unlike a lot of other greats, who were mainly leading one club team to greatness (Di Stefano:Madrid, Maradona:Napoli, Messi:Barcelona, Pele:Santos, Cruyff:Ajax, Beckenbauer:Munich) his Ballon D'ors and CL wins came for two different clubs, he dominated two entirely different leagues and both the best in the world at the time he did it (or thereabouts, at least) in entirely different circumstance. That's a pretty big factor for me in terms of his appreciation and something not found easily among most top players in history.

 

[No11]

Left field pick from me......Marco Van Basten.

best CF ever, but the best for me is Maradona.

 

[Jaybomb]

Pele is the best. Bar none.

Cristiano would be my favourite, in my opinion the best of the "modern" era.

 

[Revan]

You can make that four, not much doubt in my mind that he has it sealed come January.


One thing that gets a bit overlooked when discussing him is unlike a lot of other greats, who were mainly leading one club team to greatness (Di Stefano:Madrid, Maradona:Napoli, Messi:Barcelona, Pele:Santos, Cruyff:Ajax, Beckenbauer:Munich) his Ballon D'ors and CL wins came for two different clubs, he dominated two entirely different leagues and both the best in the world at the time he did it (or thereabouts, at least) in entirely different circumstance. That's a pretty big factor for me in terms of his appreciation and something not found easily among most top players in history.

Agree on both points.

And well, three (or four) Ballon D'Ors it becomes even more impressive when you consider that they came at a time when Messi was playing.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Just for fun im going to interpret "greatest" more loosely than most and name three players that were the "greatest" footballers in the sense they transcended their influence solely on the pitch.

1. Socrates

2. George Best

3. Jean-Marc Bosman

 

[Synco]

C. Ronaldo is definitely the most difficult one to rate, and based with who you're talking, he might be the greatest ever or a glorified Hernandez. I put him on Tier 2 mainly because of his three Ballon D'Ors (rate by authority) which is the same as Cruyff and Platini who are in the same tier. His trophy cabinet is also almost perfect, and he has been the best player of teams that won 3 UCL. His all round game until 5 years ago was very good (one of the best in the world) and he is the best goalscorer in a very long time. I think that second tier is fine for him, enough to be considered a great, but also to have a clear difference between him and the big three whose all round game was simply in an another level to him.

He's extremely difficult to rate, that's true. I belong to the moderate nay-sayers and would place Beckenbauer and Xavi comfortably in front of him, for example. I watched almost every Real game in the last two years and while he is an astonishing scorer, he is missing a lot in other departments in my opinion.

For me he is one of the great goalscoring specialists like Müller (who has 'only' one Ballon d'Or, but whose trophy cabinet is even more complete and whose contribution to his NT's successes is much higher) and Eusébio. -> tier 3

 

[Z_Wolf]

And a better athlete, more gifted physically, way stronger in the air and quicker across the turf. Basically as complete as forward can get, world class in all attributes be it technical, physical or mental.

I don't think Pelle was quicker than Messi tbh, nor stronger. you don't see players knocking Messi off the ball.

 

[Champagne Football]

Messi is about 5 times better than Pele ever was. In fact it's an insult to Messi to mention players like Pele in the same breath

But top 10 of all time would probably look something like this with Messi utterly miles ahead of everyone else

1. Messi
2. Brazilian Ronaldo
3. Zidane
4. Ronaldinho
5. Maradona
6. Pele
7. Cryuff
8. CR7
9. Rivaldo
10. Platini

 

[Moby]

I watched almost every Real game in the last two years and while he is an astonishing scorer, he is missing a lot in other departments in my opinion.

Well, in the recent years, sure but if we are counting entire careers of everyone being mentioned here it is only fair we do that with him as well. I don't think anyone could deny his all round attacking game back when he was at United. For a good 3 years and especially in the 06-07 season he was delightful to watch, and pretty far ahead of everyone in most attacking departments. He became a better goal machine at Real but during his time at United and initial years at Real as someone like @Raul Madrid has previously highlighted, there wasn't much missing from his game and that should be considered in the discussion as well. He won us three leagues in a row, and a Champions League and his Ballon D'or in 2008 was one of the most unanimous ones. Basically the fact that he's changed his game to what it is now perhaps sometimes lets people forget that it has been over a decade since he joined United and has had plenty of different phases.

 

[Rado_N]

Eric Bailly.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Messi is about 5 times better than Pele ever was. In fact it's an insult to Messi to mention players like Pele in the same breath

But top 10 of all time would probably look something like this with Messi utterly miles ahead of everyone else

1. Messi
2. Brazilian Ronaldo
3. Zidane
4. Ronaldinho
5. Maradona
6. Pele
7. Cryuff
8. CR7
9. Rivaldo
10. Platini

Interesting choice of Rivaldo and ronaldinho so high actually. Personally Id put Zico and Garrincha over them. I believe some old timers would put Moreno over them as well.

 

[Moby]

I don't think Pelle was quicker than Messi tbh, nor stronger. you don't see players knocking Messi off the ball.

I said 'stronger in the air' which is beyond debate in my opinion. Pele has scored some of the most iconic headed goals at the biggest stage as posted above against some of the toughest defenders in the air. As far as being knocked off the ball is concerned, this era has an enormous amount of protection in the first place where a defender can hardly exert the same pressure they were allowed to in previous eras. Thugs like Gentile who took out the likes of Maradona for fun would be sent off in 5 minutes in today's era. The likes of Pelé and Maradona had to face players kicking them for fun, pulling their shirts and completely manhandling them with the referee not doing a thing. Messi is strong on the ball, no doubt but he's not in the elite category in that area as far as I'm concerned. Pelé possessed a bigger frame, more upper body strength, could go shoulder to shoulder with the toughest cnuts without losing the duel which led to him powering through players a lot of times. As for pace, again Messi is pretty quick but Pelé by all accounts and footage was electric across the turf.

 

[Revan]

Messi is about 5 times better than Pele ever was. In fact it's an insult to Messi to mention players like Pele in the same breath

But top 10 of all time would probably look something like this with Messi utterly miles ahead of everyone else

1. Messi
2. Brazilian Ronaldo
3. Zidane
4. Ronaldinho
5. Maradona
6. Pele
7. Cryuff
8. CR7
9. Rivaldo
10. Platini

Yeah, it is an insult to rate 'the same guy who is almost unanimous choice for the greatest ever, and who won more votes that the rest of the footballers combined in Super Ballon D'Or with' in the same tier as Lionel Messi.

 

[Moby]

Yeah, it is an insult to rate 'the same guy who is almost unanimous choice for the greatest ever, and who won more votes that the rest of the footballers combined in Super Ballon D'Or with' in the same tier as Lionel Messi.

Haha, I stopped reading after the first sentence but well everyone's entitled to their opinion no matter how absurd it is.

Here's something interesting now that you mention the Ballon D'or. Recently France Football announced a new list of Ballon D'ors for the fact that South Americans were not eligible for it till 1995 and these were the changes:

According to that Pelé was awarded SEVEN Ballon D'ors had he been eligible then.

 

[Synco]

Well, in the recent years, sure but if we are counting entire careers of everyone being mentioned here it is only fair we do that with him as well. I don't think anyone could deny his all round attacking game back when he was at United. For a good 3 years and especially in the 06-07 season he was delightful to watch, and pretty far ahead of everyone in most attacking departments. He became a better goal machine at Real but during his time at United and initial years at Real as someone like @Raul Madrid has previously highlighted, there wasn't much missing from his game and that should be considered in the discussion as well. He won us three leagues in a row, and a Champions League and his Ballon D'or in 2008 was one of the most unanimous ones. Basically the fact that he's changed his game to what it is now perhaps sometimes lets people forget that it has been over a decade since he joined United and has had plenty of different phases.

Absolutely true, and had he been able to keep this level of overall game in addition to a similar (not necessarily equally high) goalscoring record, he would have been borderline tier 1 for me.

 

[Champagne Football]

Interesting choice of Rivaldo and ronaldinho so high actually. Personally Id put Zico and Garrincha over them. I believe some old timers would put Moreno over them as well.

Garrincha was a known boozer and womanizer. I lived 10 years in brazil and every Brazilian I met says Garrincha was the best. Brazilians tend to not like Pele for some reason
.....possibly because he fathered many kids who he claimed were not his.....Many Brazilians also say Zico was the best. I would never disagree that......but in some major Brazil magazine such as Globo or something like 80% of Brazilians voted that Maradona was miles better than Pele. Giggs and Arjen Robben would not be far off that top 10 list

 

[paulscholes18]

Black Panther

 

[Champagne Football]

Yeah, it is an insult to rate 'the same guy who is almost unanimous choice for the greatest ever, and who won more votes that the rest of the footballers combined in Super Ballon D'Or with' in the same tier as Lionel Messi.

I think saying Pele was the best is as ridiculous as saying George Best was the best...Both were pioneers of their time but both would serioualy struggle to get into an all time XI to be honest. Pele raised the bar that has since been smashed by about 50 footballers ever

 

[Revan]

I think saying Pele was the best is as ridiculous as saying George Best was the best...Both were pioneers of their time but both would serioualy struggle to get into an all time XI to be honest.

The thread is about the greatest, not the best.

I made the mathematics comparison, that while Tao knows far more mathematics than Newton or Gauss, Newton and Gauss are still the greatest mathematicians ever. Or it is hard to find a physicist who is better at it than Witten, but does that make him a greater physicist than Einstein?!

Same here, you have to adjust the evaluation to the time. Pele might not have been as good as today's footballers, but he also didn't had protection, medics, diets, balls and pitches of today. If you take that into account, it becomes very difficult to argue against him being the greatest ever.

 

[harms]

For comparison, Meazza was the main player when Italy won it on '38 but you cannot put it right there with those others

Have you seen it?

 

[Synco]

Black Panther

Great video.

 

[Revan]

Have you seen it?

Nope. Again 'evaluation by authority', something that you must do if you evaluate oldies careers.

 

[harms]

Messi is about 5 times better than Pele ever was. In fact it's an insult to Messi to mention players like Pele in the same breath

But top 10 of all time would probably look something like this with Messi utterly miles ahead of everyone else

1. Messi
2. Brazilian Ronaldo
3. Zidane
4. Ronaldinho
5. Maradona
6. Pele
7. Cryuff
8. CR7
9. Rivaldo
10. Platini

What the actual feck?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Johan Cruijff.

Not just for footballing ability, but for his entire body of work. Fantastic player, changed the game both as a player and a coach, moved the game forward in many ways.

And ofcourse I'm Dutch, so I'm biased.

I think saying Pele was the best is as ridiculous as saying George Best was the best...Both were pioneers of their time but both would serioualy struggle to get into an all time XI to be honest. Pele raised the bar that has since been smashed by about 50 footballers ever

These debates are always difficult. Football is a lot better than it was in Pele's days, but someone with Pele's talent and a modern day training regimen would dominate just as much as he did then I'd wager.

 

[harms]

Nope. Again 'evaluation by authority', something that you must do if you evaluate oldies careers.

It's just that I have a huge problem with evaluating pre-war players (or even the early post-war, like Zizinho). There were truly great players in that era - Meazza, Sarosi, Sindelar, Moreno, but there is so little information on them that you (well, I, at least) just can't compare them to the modern ones and expect a clear answer.

 

[Champagne Football]

Johan Cruijff.

Not just for footballing ability, but for his entire body of work. Fantastic player, changed the game both as a player and a coach, moved the game forward in many ways.

And ofcourse I'm Dutch, so I'm biased.



These debates are always difficult. Football is a lot better than it was in Pele's days, but someone with Pele's talent and a modern day training regimen would dominate just as much as he did then I'd wager.

If you're dutch than you can easily put Gullit/Van Basten/Robben etc in an all time top 10 .....all of those would easily make anyones top 10. Upon reflection i'd easily have Gullit/Rijkaard/Robben ahead of Platini/Rivaldo in a top 10

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What the actual feck?

Messi, Ronaldo + a bunch of other stats. Welcome to the modern fan!

 

[Revan]

It's just that I have a huge problem with evaluating pre-war players (or even the early post-war, like Zizinho). There were truly great players in that era - Meazza, Sarosi, Sindelar, Moreno, but there is so little information on them that you (well, I, at least) just can't compare them to the modern ones and expect a clear answer.

Fair point. In fact, you can extend the pre-war 'era' until the mid-fifties when the footage started to get more available.

 

[legolegs]

Johan Cruijff.

Not just for footballing ability, but for his entire body of work. Fantastic player, changed the game both as a player and a coach, moved the game forward in many ways.

And ofcourse I'm Dutch, so I'm biased.

He's actually quite a good shout. I'd still go for Pele as THE greatest player but Cruijff was more or less the same tier as Maradona. No big difference between them imo.

 

[Champagne Football]

What the actual feck?

I do apologize for leaving out Robben/Giggs/Keane/Gullit/Van Basten from that list. Anyone of those could actually cruise into any top 10. But to claim Pele was the best is a bit like saying Tim Henman was the best ever tennis player

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Messi

 

[pacifictheme]

Could well be. I wasn't saying he shouldn't be rated higher outside UK/Ireland, just that he isn't.

True. Shame really because he really was a special player. Definitely should be in the conversation for GOAT.