Someone could say 'Best would have lasted less than a season in todays celebrity obsessed culture'
You've gotta compare like with like. In truth, had Best grown up today he would have been nurtured, wouldn't have smoked and drank and may have became the best player in the world.
By that same token, watch the Pele videos. He's similar to Messi in that the defender always almost gets a foot on the ball, but rarely manages it. You can't say that Messi wouldn't have survived. He would have still been quicker than every person on the pitch just as Best was. Besides all that I'd also say that Messi is probably more muscular that Best ever was. The modern footballer is so honed now. These guys are not delicate.
I have seen both. Messi is no way greater than Best as a footballer. People always bring in what players achieved. In that sense Pele will never be overtaken. The game has changed.
Its too bad many never saw Best. I was fortunate to have met him personally too. A very unasuming man. Even he perhaps could not understand his own abilities.
Its too bad many never saw Best. I was fortunate to have met him personally too. A very unasuming man. Even he perhaps could not understand his own abilities.
Also met him. Too young to see him play live but I saw him in a London hotel bar once during a time period where he was on tv a bit and looking full of life. A few of us sat around, had a yarn. Had a great time. George wasn't drinking, nobody offered him a drink which he acknowledged and said he appreciated.
Don't know, if I'm being even semi-objective. Over time, you realize that too much context is lost, and this is probably an exercise in futility - given the cross-positional, cross-generational, cross skillset assessments involved - so perhaps there should be a standalone GOAT for pre-war, post-war, modern, post-modern players - with each player being compared with his contemporaries, rather than those from over half a century before or since - as the backdrop of football itself evolved from a near amateur recreational sport to a hard-boiled professional industry. No matter how dig you deep, it's almost impossible to strike a balance when you try to quantify pure individual 'talent', the ability to excel within the structure of the team, style of play, impact on the era and the opposition strategies, 'eye candy factor', productivity, evolution over time, the ability to perform at the highest level, and accomplishments - against a backdrop of the meta-game, the manager they played for, their nationality, the quality of the opponents and team-mates, and so on and so forth.
That said, in the spirit of contradiction, I'd also go with Pelé. There are too many arguments in his favor, and that's the reason why every player from the '60s onwards is compared with this man as the reference point. The best young footballer in history with maybe Fenómeno. The most complete attacker ever - you could play him as a second striker, a center forward, a playmaking #10, and even wide - and he'd be awesome in those roles. From what I can remember, he's one of the few players that rarely seemed to have 'bad games' - consistently fantastic for years, and years - like maybe Messi, as opposed to players that had great peaks but didn't do that well on a regular and more sustained basis. For reference, he was one of the best players in the world as early as the late '50s - with dazzling skill and productivity - 350 goals in 4 seasons; and he was among the best in the late '60s and very early '70s as he remodeled and enhanced his game, instead of becoming more reductive - that's just remarkable, even if you consider a slight dips towards the mid '60s. Proven on the international front, and at club level. Yes, he didn't play in Europe at club level, but if you look a this record vs European teams:
200+ goals in 190 odd games. In his peak for Santos (which gets underrated for some reason), he even helped dismantle Eusébio's Benfica - scoring 5 goals in 2 Intercontinental games, and then scored 2 vs Milan in '63. God of skillful football, even if you set aside the numbers. GOAT tier header of the ball, GOAT tier goalscoring ability, GOAT tier athleticism, GOAT tier intuition and football sense, GOAT tier natural ability, GOAT tier big game mentality - the cumulative list is astounding, and he checks off every major box at a very, very high level. In terms of individual skillsets - Maradona was more gifted and a better dribbler, Messi is more evasive and proven at club level, Di Stéfano was the more complete 'footballer' and talisman, Cruyff was a more intellectual footballer; but in terms of his overall ability and decisiveness and accomplishments and tactical malleability, Pelé's hard to beat.
You put him in any team, anywhere, in any era - and he's odds on to deliver. Probably the most targeted footballer of the all time to boot, in the days of rough-house tactics. Even in star-studded teams, he was the one who was given special attention from the opposition. Plus, at Pelé's time, the game was still at a relatively primordial state - and he helped set the benchmark for what was to come, taking on the mantle from Sindelaar and Meazza and Di Stéfano. That should have added value, in an ideal world - eg. if you consider executable skills - Ronaldinho perfected the elastic, but it was derived from Rivelino. And Rivelino advanced Sérgio Echigo's original flip flap. In a similar way, a lot of the feints and whatnot executed these days are derived from the days of Pelé, and he was the link between the old days or football, and what it became in the modern state. Even the Cruyff Turn which was perfected by Cruyff was derived from Eulogio Martínez, and a bit of Pelé. Essentially a parallel move with subtle changes in execution and contortion and time for which Cruyff shielded the ball:
And as an aside, the rest of the Top 20-ish is more fluid (subject to daily/weekly change); consisting of 3 loosely defined tiers:
Maradona ~ Di Stéfano
Messi ~ Beckenbauer (best of the best in terms of European football)
Cruyff
Fenómeno
Platini (quite possibly the best pure playmaker and passer in football)
Puskás ~ Cristiano
Eusébio ~ Best
Zico (not much between him and Platini, just a preference for the latter)
Garrincha (Best was more impressive based on a pure eye test, though it is harder to find full club games of Garrincha - so maybe the sample size affects judgement here)
Müller (way more decisive than Cristiano whose stats are padded, but also less complete as an attacker - if that's the right term)
Van Basten ~ Maldini
Charlton ~ Baresi (Maldini over him because the former was more complete - a defensive prototype of sorts)
Matthäus ~ Xavi
Regarding Pele, worth pointing out that on top of everything else he had a reputation for being pretty damn tough too. John Giles said he was the last player he'd want to get involved with on the pitch. Which is quite a compliment coming from a member of that Leeds side...
He played his career out at Santos in a league that was a horror show and wholly out of sync with European leagues.
It's maybe small minded to say that, but also justified to a certain extent. As someone born in the 80's I can never subscribe to backing Pele as the greatest ever. Not enough reference points for me.
Full credit for his WC exploits. Especially considering it was a proper tournament back then. You had to be good to win it and would play at least 4 tough games*. But he was part of the greatest international side on the planet.
* That does of course mean that most peoples memory of him is based on less than 15 matches.
This is so subjective. Some players are artists. For me, even though I'd say Messi is the most effective player I've ever seen, he lacks personality. Might seem like a crazy thing to say but Diego Maradona, Ronaldinho and Luis Ronaldo were all players that captured a level of romanticism that Messi can't match. Pele was too far before my time, but obviously had the best career; albeit in a different era entirely. Cristiano is obviously a beast, but my preference is for players with greater flair and artistry, and much of his effectiveness is due to his astonishing physical gifts and conditioning. Anyway....
He played his career out at Santos in a league that was a horror show and wholly out of sync with European leagues.
It's maybe small minded to say that, but also justified to a certain extent. As someone born in the 80's I can never subscribe to backing Pele as the greatest ever. Not enough reference points for me.
Full credit for his WC exploits. Especially considering it was a proper tournament back then. You had to be good to win it and would play at least 4 tough games*. But he was part of the greatest international side on the planet.
* That does of course mean that most peoples memory of him is based on less than 15 matches.
I always find this amazing that people try and use the Brazilian football leagues and system as an argument. Especially from people who werent around and didnt see any Brazilian club football.His record against European club sides is pretty impressive anyway. That Brazilian football league system that is apparently a horror show produced an endless stream of world class players, if it was indeed a horror show then it would never have been able to do that. In your own words he was part of the greatest international side on the planet, how could they have been so good if the Brazilian leagues were a horror show. It defies logic.
In your own words he was part of the greatest international side on the planet, how could they have been so good if the Brazilian leagues were a horror show. It defies logic.
You've fully quoted me but only taken a small part of what I said. I went on to say;
"It's maybe small minded to say that, but also justified to a certain extent. As someone born in the 80's I can never subscribe to backing Pele as the greatest ever. Not enough reference points for me."
Brazil has historically produced a huge number of outstanding footballers. There are countless books and studies written on the subject.
But the football league in Brazil has always been a horror show. Regional leagues, teams running up cricket scores against small sides. They obviously did a lot right in terms of growing and developing footballers, but you can't honestly say that the league structure was something that European football could admire or even understand. It's still a convoluted system to this day.
Pele running up hundreds of goals at that level does nothing for me. It's ok that people of that generation attribute value to it but I can't do it.
Most creative/entertaining of all time = Ronaldinho
Most magical of all time = Maradona
Most potential of all time = Ronaldo Fenomeno
Most winner of all time = Messi/Pele/Di Stefano
Can someone name me the game where you can see Pele's all-around game at his finest, for some reason he is the only great i didnt really put any research into so i reckon why not start with his finest hour.
From the limited games I have seen of him, 2 (outside of world cup) stood out to me -
Santos vs Benfica - Probably Pele's best game, I remember reading somewhere that he even said so.
Santos vs Penarol - Copa Libertados 62 final, was a great 3 legged affair. Penarol was no pushover and were defending champions and had a great team.
Then in world cups pretty much all elimination games were good although his performance in 58 final is the one I like best.
Ronaldo, Cristiano, Messi, Pele, Maradona, Ronaldinho. Probably out of those bunch. I didn't have the privilege to watch Ronaldo, Pele, and Maradona during their prime, but their contributions to the game during their era should be worth mentioning. Especially Ronaldo, in his prime, was almost like a hybrid of CR and Messi now I think.
Rapid, strong, agile, nimble (two) footed, bags of tricks and of course and eye for goal. Just a shame, more protection towards attacking players were not introduced during his time. Tackles flying all over, which I think ultimately contributed to his injuries. Not to mention the sudden off form during the WC 98 final. Anyone knows about that? Some excerpts perhaps or quotes?
Ronaldinho was the one that brought Joga Bonito. Bring the smile and happiness back to the game. Another one that was unplayable during his prime. Strong, rapid, agile, tricks and whatnot.
The Real Ronaldo by a wide margin. However, I am too young for Pele, Best or Maradona (which I would bet most people here are).
One thing is for sure, our future children will have new heroes and they won't be Messi nor Cristiano. It's the way sports/media works and how generations have their own....
Ronnie was an absolute beast of a player that was as good technically as he was physically, which is a rare combo to possess. Most guys in sports across different genres, especially ones that are physically as gifted usually aren't great technically. ROnnie was a beast technically.
Someone could say 'Best would have lasted less than a season in todays celebrity obsessed culture'
You've gotta compare like with like. In truth, had Best grown up today he would have been nurtured, wouldn't have smoked and drank and may have became the best player in the world.
By that same token, watch the Pele videos. He's similar to Messi in that the defender always almost gets a foot on the ball, but rarely manages it. You can't say that Messi wouldn't have survived. He would have still been quicker than every person on the pitch just as Best was. Besides all that I'd also say that Messi is probably more muscular that Best ever was. The modern footballer is so honed now. These guys are not delicate.
Its funny that people say that but when I see guys like Pele.. he's a proper natural physical specimen who would wreak havoc even today. He was physically a beast for an attacker and knew how to put that physique to good use unlike a Cristiano today who looks the part but isn't all that strong.
I really struggle to get my head around the feelings that success at international level is a must to be considered the next level up in personal ability. Take the final in 2014 for example, if Germany don't go on to score in extra time and Argentina instead win on penalties, with Messi not touching the ball for the final 8 minutes and missing his penalty kick, then he walks away with a medal. That's a fine line for you then to consider him the greatest of all time. It just doesn't really mean anything.
If he was outstanding in the final and semi final and grabbed goals/assists but was ultimately unlucky.. no one would question his elite tier international credentials, but because he failed to have an impact on those games, it brought into question his ability to make an impact on the final stages of international tournament. It is incredibly harsh, agreed but we are talking very fine margins and the other three players in my tier one, have conquered all aspects of the game and are undisputedly referred to as the greatest of all time.
Beckenbauer got in my tier one because I think defensive players need a reference point in the greatest of all time debate, it is unfair for all the defenders out there to feel like their accomplishments feel like nothing compared to the attackers so for me Beckenbauer deserves to be there. I should have put Yashin somewhere in those tiers too.
Maradona's international career = Messi club career. But for me Maradona club career > Messi international career due to his achievements at Napoli.. plus you add all the legendary big match moments and charisma/cheekiness of Diego, and you can see why Maradona is universally regarded as one of the top two of all time. Messi for most of us is on that level of talent, he should be in the top 3/4 but to be universally recognised as being in that category he does need to really dominate a world cup and leave his mark on the latter stages.
Someone like Puskas, who came before Pele or Maradona.. during that period of 1950-1954.. he was basically Messi level, but that loss in 54 has hurt his reputation. This guy is probably the first real top top modern day genius the game had.. which we can see from proper televised footage. If he had won the world cup, or even if Cruyff had won the world cup in 1974.. these guys would have challenged Maradona or even Pele. They lost in finals and for that reason, they go down a tier. Other players have suffered for not quite winning and Messi too will arguably deservedly suffer that fate, unless he rectifies it by the end of his career.
Can't say I'm old enough to have seen Eusebio play but I've seen the entire careers of both Ronaldos. No question Luis Ronaldo was considerably better at his peak.
Its funny that people say that but when I see guys like Pele.. he's a proper natural physical specimen who would wreak havoc even today. He was physically a beast for an attacker and knew how to put that physique to good use unlike a Cristiano today who looks the part but isn't all that strong.
Yes and no. Pele stood out as a footballer in the way that Bolt stands out as a sprinter. He was that evolutionary step ahead in a sport. He was clearly faster, stronger, more agile than almost all footballers of that generation. That alone made him special, then he was talented to boot.
But in today's game, If he could win a few free kicks by falling over after being burped on, you know he'd be falling over. It's the disease of the modern game. Similarly, if Ronaldo had grown up in a rougher environment that didn't tolerate his drama, he would throw his weight around more.
These points are precisely why comparisons across eras are so tough.
Yes and no. Pele stood out as a footballer in the way that Bolt stands out as a sprinter. He was that evolutionary step ahead in a sport. He was clearly faster, stronger, more agile than almost all footballers of that generation. That alone made him special, then he was talented to boot.
But in today's game, If he could win a few free kicks by falling over after being burped on, you know he'd be falling over. It's the disease of the modern game. Similarly, if Ronaldo had grown up in a rougher environment that didn't tolerate his drama, he would throw his weight around more.
These points are precisely why comparisons across eras are so tough.
Disagree. Cristianos shoulder to shoulder strength strength and hold up play has never been that great even amongst his contemporary peers. Messi despite being smaller uses his body way better
1 match?, a few months of being world class?, doing it over several seasons consistently?.
It's difficult to really nail down the true greatest, it's easier to say the greatest of their generation.
Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Ronaldinho/Ronaldo/Messi/C Ronaldo are probably names that everybody could agree with, for many different reasons. From that point it's all subjective.
Out of that group I think Maradona/Ronaldinho/Ronaldo are the most entertaining in terms of pure skill, but you can't argue with Messi and Ronaldo's consistency at arguably a tougher level of football.
I think Messi is probably the most rounded and consistent attacker I've ever seen, so I would choose him.
Yes and no. Pele stood out as a footballer in the way that Bolt stands out as a sprinter. He was that evolutionary step ahead in a sport. He was clearly faster, stronger, more agile than almost all footballers of that generation. That alone made him special, then he was talented to boot.
But in today's game, If he could win a few free kicks by falling over after being burped on, you know he'd be falling over. It's the disease of the modern game. Similarly, if Ronaldo had grown up in a rougher environment that didn't tolerate his drama, he would throw his weight around more.
These points are precisely why comparisons across eras are so tough.
Disagree. Cristianos shoulder to shoulder strength strength and hold up play has never been that great even amongst his contemporary peers. Messi despite being smaller uses his body way better
I always find this amazing that people try and use the Brazilian football leagues and system as an argument. Especially from people who werent around and didnt see any Brazilian club football.His record against European club sides is pretty impressive anyway. That Brazilian football league system that is apparently a horror show produced an endless stream of world class players, if it was indeed a horror show then it would never have been able to do that. In your own words he was part of the greatest international side on the planet, how could they have been so good if the Brazilian leagues were a horror show. It defies logic.
Actually, there is something true on his words. While it had the best team of his time in Santos, and a few other good teams, it also had a lot of trash team. It was a regional league after all, so quite unbalanced.
Pele's record for Brazil and his record against European teams (although on friendlies, but still serious matches) compensate about it though.
About El Fenomeno: considering the stick that we give Messi for not winning an international trophy, what about Ronaldo not being able to win an UCL and winning only one league title in 10+ years in Europe despite that he played for the best/second best team of his country all the time. PSV, Barca, Inter, Real Madrid, Milano and still his trophy cabinet on club level is pretty shit. And before people say that we are talking for individual achievements, lets not forget that he was consistently outscored from other players including Oliver Bierhoff despite that he was a true 9. His stats were nothing ordinary, his contribute in big games (club level) was pretty much nonexistent (bar that fecking hattrick), the same about his trophy.
I know that he compensates about it with France 98 and Korea/Japan 2002, but surely, we cannot completely dismiss his lack of success in club level.
I think that a lot of people go for him on the basis of how good was he to watch (similar to Ronaldinho) and what could have been if he wasn't injured, but not on really what Ronaldo did without ifs and buts. Tier 3 for me, well below his namesake, Eusebio, Puskas and other top goalscorers.
Disagree. Cristianos shoulder to shoulder strength strength and hold up play has never been that great even amongst his contemporary peers. Messi despite being smaller uses his body way better
I think you're selling him short. Take a look at a picture of Evander Holyfield or Roy Jones Jr at Light heavyweight. Completely different sport, but for me it always serves as a solid reference point. He's that kind of size, albeit athletic. Ronaldo is a big boy. If he could have a better career throwing his weight around, he would, and he'd be a nightmare for defenders.
Actually, there is something true on his words. While it had the best team of his time in Santos, and a few other good teams, it also had a lot of trash team. It was a regional league after all, so quite unbalanced.
Pele's record for Brazil and his record against European teams (although on friendlies, but still serious matches) compensate about it though.
Most people don't realise how terrible the Brazilian football league was/is in terms of organisation. It is a HUGE country. Local leagues cultimating in a post season. If Ronaldo or Messi were scoring 100 games a year playing against Championship and First division sides, they'd get zero credit.
About El Fenomeno: considering the stick that we give Messi for not winning an international trophy, what about Ronaldo not being able to win an UCL and winning only one league title in 10+ years in Europe despite that he played for the best/second best team of his country all the time. PSV, Barca, Inter, Real Madrid, Milano and still his trophy cabinet on club level is pretty shit. And before people say that we are talking for individual achievements, lets not forget that he was consistently outscored from other players including Oliver Bierhoff despite that he was a true 9. His stats were nothing ordinary, his contribute in big games (club level) was pretty much nonexistent (bar that fecking hattrick), the same about his trophy.
I know that he compensates about it with France 98 and Korea/Japan 2002, but surely, we cannot completely dismiss his lack of success in club level.
I think that a lot of people go for him on the basis of how good was he to watch (similar to Ronaldinho) and what could have been if he wasn't injured, but not on really what Ronaldo did without ifs and buts. Tier 3 for me, well below his namesake, Eusebio, Puskas and other top goalscorers.
About El Fenomeno: considering the stick that we give Messi for not winning an international trophy, what about Ronaldo not being able to win an UCL and winning only one league title in 10+ years in Europe despite that he played for the best/second best team of his country all the time. PSV, Barca, Inter, Real Madrid, Milano and still his trophy cabinet on club level is pretty shit. And before people say that we are talking for individual achievements, lets not forget that he was consistently outscored from other players including Oliver Bierhoff despite that he was a true 9. His stats were nothing ordinary, his contribute in big games (club level) was pretty much nonexistent (bar that fecking hattrick), the same about his trophy.
I know that he compensates about it with France 98 and Korea/Japan 2002, but surely, we cannot completely dismiss his lack of success in club level.
I think that a lot of people go for him on the basis of how good was he to watch (similar to Ronaldinho) and what could have been if he wasn't injured, but not on really what Ronaldo did without ifs and buts. Tier 3 for me, well below his namesake, Eusebio, Puskas and other top goalscorers.
To take this off a little bit of a tangent, did anyone see the Liverpool lads with their tennis ball juggling competition? Some of the better players weren't what you'd call high ly skilled or comfortable. This is Maradona...
The head to shoulder with the football is quite impressive, he does a shoulder to shoulder in the Life is Life video that is remarkable really, he's not even looking. In this one I think that's a tennis ball he's semi back-heeling 20 feet up in the air & then doing it again. The Rubik's cube is right at the end.
The Messi fans won't have much trouble finding the Orange juggling, Diego has that covered also.
Not super relevant but the skills & spatial awareness gap between the players the thread is talking about & even very good pros is huge probably. Makes you think doesn't it? Well it does me, anyway.
Just a follow up to what someone said earlier about Pele's dribbling was it? Being light ahead in thought & knowing what was happening.
Facts are that during his time there Lazio, Roma, Milano and Juve won titles, so there were four teams who did that, but not his Inter. Sure, Juve might have 'fixed' a match, but this doesn't change things.
When he went on Madrid, they had just won UCL, but they were never able to reach a final after they got him (and only managed a league title). Same about Barca, Milano, PSV when he finished below Real, Inter and Ajax.
For someone who gets mentioned many times in these debates, it is a really shit record. And also winning a single European Golden Boot on his career, despite the fact that he played No.9 during all the time in Europe and never had to go against Messi/Ronaldo deserves negative points in my book.
About this thread: nothing has actually changed since the last time this debate was had on here. Messi hasn't furthered himself and did not do enough as an individual (never mind Higuain's incompetence) at the WC to turn any tide.
Not-Messi specific, but the bar for 'GOAT' is so absurdly high that you're talking about an outlier coming along and being a football god from their mid-teens straight into their 30's to ever surpass Pelé. Can it happen? Yes. Will it happen? There is a remote possibility.
People have to understand that Maradona was winning league titles and doing the unprecedented at 16 years old and Pele the same with a dominance of a World Cup at 17. They are not normal players even amongst those that would be deemed the true elite of football's history. I think the aforementioned isn't actually taken in coherently most of the time, rather, it is brushed aside or just read through like it's nothing, but ask yourself what pre-adult player have you even seen who was beyond (and I mean beyond) adult, professional peers to the point they were unplayable? Even if you take it up to sub-20yr old, the pool of players barely extends.
It's not even in that aspect that Pele and Maradona separate from the pack; it's that even then, with being peerless as non-adults, they improved further as players and constantly remodelled their game around their continually expanding abilities - the Pelé of 17yrs old had practically no similarities with the Pelé of 30yrs old and yet both were dominant and brilliant.
Feats and abilities have been done to death, but I don't feel there's a true comprehension of the fact that not only were these 2 the most extreme non-adult prodigies the game has ever seen, but also in terms of realised, adult potential converted into tangible performance, they maintained a 'curve' that may as well be a straight line of prolonged excellence. Messi is the only other player who comes close to doing that, and even he does not match their pre-adult bars and hasn't realised his potential to the true extent either of them did to this point in time. If he had, he would've won the World Cup or been absolutely, unquestionably dominant in one by now. Even then, that only brings him into the discussion, it doesn't put him ahead by any means.
As much as this may appear to be an attack on Messi, it's more a post to highlight the incredulous level that needs to be not only met, but surpassed by any player with a genuine claim to be the best of all time. The trajectory can't be any better than Pele's (unless we see a 16 or 15 yr old kid come in and dominate a World Cup) but it would have to be similar, as a start.
For those that think international football means less in these discussions than it did; I would say the absolute opposite is true. As these football arms races have progressed to absolutely farcical levels of munitions, with star-studded squads robbing their leagues as a whole of talent only to leave them benched or with the odd spot of playing time, international football, and the dearth of relative quality in comparison to these star-studded club squads, has become the greatest proving ground there is in the game as we get to see what these players are made of in adverse conditions with less than optimum settings all around them - we get to see who wilts under those conditions, who remains the same and who rises to meet the unfamiliar and uncomfortable with winning performances for the ages. Questions abound for the so-called superstars of the club game who don't and praise comes in spades for those that do. The stakes are magnificently tilted for those who already stars that then shine in international football, too... so all that's left is for them to deliver said performances for the ages, which few come up with these days. which, for me, and many others, immediately casts doubt on claims of greatness that supersedes greats of the past who displayed no dip in performance from club to international football.
