The Higher Education Thread | First University with £18k pa fees to open

[jgraham]

It doesn't cast a stain on the students portest at all

It does.

How anybody can believe it can't cast a stain on it I'm not sure.

 

[Feed Me]

Lies have been told, the Lib dems were prepared to scrap this when it came to a coalition and they knew this preelection, they did not mention it then however.

Of course they didn't - it was one of their flagship policies!

I don't think it's as cut and dried that they were automatically prepared to drop the policy, just like that. My view is that they would have, ideally, liked to kept true to their plans.

In any case - this comes back to my central points: no manifesto pledges should ever be treated as though they are guarantees. And furthermore, the Lib Dems were always going to have to make concessions, because they were always only ever going to get in via a coalition - you really didn't need someone to tell you these things.

Big issue that people are missing is that electoral reform is a much bigger issue to Lib Dems than student fees and they have, they will argue, made headway on this issue... Who'd have thought the Cons would have countenanced that idea? Concessions and compromise and all that...

 

[Mozza]

Of course it does.

You only have to see how The Sun are reporting it to see what a massive proportion of the population will be thinking tomorrow. We may know that it's a bollocks publication, but it's unbelievably influential in this country... They were pretty scathing last time and I imagine they will be this time too.

Of course this behaviour reflects badly on their claims.

The Sun is not that influential anymore, this past election shows that

 

[MJLD]

I have never been more angry at a Government decision in my life. I hope the Lib Dems get torn apart.

 

[Mozza]

It does.

How anybody can believe it can't cast a stain on it I'm not sure.

It won't cast a stain, it only highlights their cause futher

 

[Feed Me]

No I'm saying that i wanted them to stand for some fo the views they were voted for. Instead they whored themselves out and gained power by the votes of the people that promised to represent, being in a coalition goverment has no bearin in this. They have already changed their policies to line in with the current government. Tonight was a chance for the party itself to show their loyalty to the people that voted for them. Now nothing is protected, their political idealogies hold no bearing in their voting as it's obvious that being in power is more important than upholding their values. We now have a goverment that wasn't voted in for their idealogies but their garnering of power.

Of course it does. Being part of a coalition means that they have a responsibility to ensure that the government they form is secure and effective. By standing for their principles, as you put it, and voting against the Cons, they would have defeated the government in a House of Commons vote - that can be tricky for a majority government. For a coalition government, it would spell all sorts of trouble - and all of half a year into the new Parliamentary cycle.

Sorry, but we have to be realistic here. In terms of having a strong and united government, this was the best outcome that could have eventuated...

 

[Marching]

I completely agree, the problem is that if the police do anything that is slightly more than passive half the country will start jumping up and down saying we live in a police state. What has happened today is that the police have categorically proven by their standoff approach that they are not causing the problems, the protesters are and that many of them are out there to smash things up. Whilst it is far from an ideal situation, very far indeed, but it means next time something rises like this wider society will accept it if the police bring in dogs, water cannons, tear gas etc.

I agree. Looking at the aerial shots, I didn't think the horses were that effective and there needed to be many more police to keep the demonstration under control.

It's also a shame that, IF the masked hooligans are really the minority spoiling it for the majority of decent law abiding demonstrators, the decent ones don't get themselves in front of the many cameras to distance themselves from the violence.

 

[Wolverine]

Yes. In the sense that a lot of people seemingly only voted for them on that one issue. It's a poor way to cast your vote though, imo. Especially given the fact that university fees is a relatively unimportant issue in the grand scheme of things.

It is an incredibly important issue though, which is why they hammered the message home. Which is why they went really out of their way to sign pledges with the NUS, pictures/videos and what not.

This affects an entire generation of youngsters and the parents as well. The lib-dems weren't really by any means a "one-issue" party ala UKIP but clearly this was one of the things that the Lib Dems were identified with in terms of what defined them, probably this and their opposition to Trident.

This affects an entire generation, its an enormous amount of money, considering that its compound interest. In terms of sustainability 3.5 grand a year was and is enough to cope, if you look for other ways for unis to be cost-effective, lets not pretend otherwise.

This issue simply was not debated for long enough or any sort of detail required to justify such a massive jump in one go.

 

[Feed Me]

The Sun is not that influential anymore, this past election shows that

Fine - the media generally.

Whichever way you look at it, the pictures pretty much speak for themselves. A lot of people will be making direct associations between students and rioting this evening. That has a deligitimising effect on their campaign.

I'm not saying it's right - for me, the majority of these rioters look like non-student anarchists - but I'm pointing out what most people will be thinking.

 

[Team Brian GB]

It won't cast a stain, it only highlights their cause futher

Highlight their cause? Are you saying that people who haven't made up their mind and are floating on this issue will look at thugs smash up London and take sympathy with them?

 

[jgraham]

It won't cast a stain, it only highlights their cause futher

I personally think that the 'cause' is being lost behind all the uproar surrounding the violence.

The Royal vehicle being attacked will shock a lot of people and people tomorrow won't be talking about the issue that has caused the students to protest but instead about how disgusted most are with how they're going about it.

 

[Mozza]

Of course they didn't - it was one of their flagship policies!

They did not mention that they'd scrap it if it came to coalition

 

[MikeUpNorth]

If the Liberals had any principles at all* then they would have had two red-line issues before entering a coalition: proportional representation and student fees. I was telling anyone that would listen before the election to beware of the Lib Dems; it is the classic case of the wolf in sheep's clothing. Most Lib Dem supporters and grass roots members are liberals in the social sense, whereas the parliamentary party is full of economic liberals... they are two totally different things.

*They don't

 

[Mozza]

Fine - the media generally.

The influence editorial is dying

 

[Feed Me]

It is an incredibly important issue though, which is why they hammered the message home. Which is why they went really out of their way to sign pledges with the NUS, pictures/videos and what not.

This affects an entire generation of youngsters and the parents as well. The lib-dems weren't really by any means a "one-issue" party ala UKIP but clearly this was one of the things that the Lib Dems were identified with in terms of what defined them, probably this and their opposition to Trident.

This affects an entire generation, its an enormous amount of money, considering that its compound interest. In terms of sustainability 3.5 grand a year was and is enough to cope, if you look for other ways for unis to be cost-effective, lets not pretend otherwise.

This issue simply was not debated for long enough or any sort of detail required to justify such a massive jump in one go.

A far bigger issue for the Lib Dems is the issue of electoral reform - that potentially could change our entire political landscape.

---

In any case, University fees are not paid off up front - they work on a tax basis, out of your pay cheque. So I don't really buy into the whole, closing the door to poorer students argument. You'll only be paying these fees if you reach a certain threshold.

It's not ideal to see fees rise, but it's no where near as dramatic as is being made out. People are taking the £9000 figure and running with it - there are a number of important caveats that are not being reported.

 

[Mozza]

Highlight their cause? Are you saying that people who haven't made up their mind and are floating on this issue will look at thugs smash up London and take sympathy with them?

Some will, espeially those who are also in the shitter due to the cuts this government is pushing through

 

[jgraham]

Some will, espeially those who are also in the shitter due to the cuts this government is pushing through

The majority won't though.

 

[Rado_N]

Wait, you think that the riots have been good for the students' cause?!

edit: not you John!

 

[Feed Me]

They did not mention that they'd scrap it if it came to coalition

That's because it probably wasn't their intention to do so. You're making out that the whole policy was a façade from the start and that they were duping us the entire time; that they always intended to scrap it.

Anyway, you're repeating yourself. Yes they didn't tell us - as if they would - but no one should ever take a manifesto pledge as a guarantee. And no one should ever vote on only one issue - if you do and they backtrack on it, you end up feeling very embittered.

 

[Mozza]

I personally think that the 'cause' is being lost behind all the uproar surrounding the violence.

The Royal vehicle being attacked will shock a lot of people and people tomorrow won't be talking about the issue that has caused the students to protest but instead about how disgusted most are with how they're going about it.

A peaceful demo would have been ignored, Ghandis protest worked becuase his peaceful protests were met with violence

 

[Feed Me]

The influence editorial is dying

Agreed - but the broadcast media is still stong and the message is getting relayed to the population via a host of new media channels. Either way, the message will be coming across loud and clear: student protests, rioting.

 

[Mozza]

That's because it probably wasn't their intention to do so. You're making out that the whole policy was a façade from the start and that they were duping us the entire time; that they always intended to scrap it.

This news was leaked a month back

 

[Mozza]

Agreed - but the broadcast media is still stong and the message is getting relayed to the population via a host of new media channels. Either way, the message will be coming across loud and clear: student protests, rioting.

Students protest, rioting because of fees

 

[Feed Me]

If the Liberals had any principles at all* then they would have had two red-line issues before entering a coalition: proportional representation and student fees. I was telling anyone that would listen before the election to beware of the Lib Dems; it is the classic case of the wolf in sheep's clothing. Most Lib Dem supporters and grass roots members are liberals in the social sense, whereas the parliamentary party is full of economic liberals... they are two totally different things.

*They don't

Yep. Good call - there's a clear distinction between the elite and grassroots of any political party. A couple of years down the line, Clegg et al. will be out on their arses and the remainder of the party will be denouncing their actions and rebranding themselves...

 

[MikeUpNorth]

That's because it probably wasn't their intention to do so. You're making out that the whole policy was a façade from the start and that they were duping us the entire time; that they always intended to scrap it.

Revealed: Lib Dems planned before election to abandon tuition fees pledge | Politics | The Guardian

 

[jgraham]

A peaceful demo would have been ignored, Ghandis protest worked becuase his peaceful protests were met with violence

There's a fine balance - this has gone way beyond a protest. It is now being looked upon as mob like rioting. Any cause they are trying to highlight has been lost and I like many now just see a load of idiots causing trouble for the sake of it.

A day of violence, simple as that.

 

[Feed Me]

This news was leaked a month back

What's your point? You're complaining that they didn't tell us before the election. A month ago was after the election and the coalition was in full swing...

Students protest, rioting because of fees

Is violence ever legitimate? Mmm. We're opening up a can of worms here.

I'm inclined to say that you can't really have a tear up every time a government passes legislation like this, against the wishes of a certain element of the population.

In some limited circumstances, when the human rights of people are being infringed, I suppose you could justify violent action.

I think you'd really have the stretch the definition of human rights to claim that this decision was impinging upon them!

 

[phelans shorts]

A lot of problems are always going to start when large groups become enclosed and basically put in a paddock, you don't want to put large groups inside a circle, they will retaliate.

 

[Mozza]

There's a fine balance - this has gone way beyond a protest. It is now being looked upon as mob like rioting. Any cause they are trying to highlight has been lost and I like many now just see a load of idiots causing trouble for the sake of it.

A day of violence, simple as that.

A day of protest noticed because of a little violence

 

[jgraham]

A lot of problems are always going to start when large groups become enclosed and basically put in a paddock, you don't want to put large groups inside a circle, they will retaliate.

The trouble started long before they were 'kettled' if that's what you're meaning.

Trouble was on the cards from the off, the police deserve credit for containing it to the levels they have done.

 

[Feed Me]

Revealed: Lib Dems planned before election to abandon tuition fees pledge | Politics | The Guardian

It's not exactly brimming with cast-iron sources, is it?

In any case, I've argued all the way along that this is the nature of a coalition government - scrapping certain ideas in exchange for concessions on other policies and power...

The issue of electoral reform is a massive one for that party and they have drawn red lines around that.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

It's not exactly brimming with cast-iron sources, is it?

"In a document marked "confidential" and dated 16 March, the head of the secret pre-election coalition negotiating team, Danny Alexander, wrote: "On tuition fees we should seek agreement on part-time students and leave the rest. We will have clear yellow water with the other [parties] on raising the tuition fee cap, so let us not cause ourselves more headaches." "

The issue of electoral reform is a massive one for that party and they have drawn red lines around that.

Have they? They've got a vote (which they may well lose) on a system which they don't want. Yeah, good going.

 

[jgraham]

A day of protest noticed because of a little violence

I'd say a day of violence over shadowing a peaceful protest.

 

[MrBurns]

Those students in London causing all the aggro should be thrown off the cliffs in Dover.

And the fees should be higher. Maybe now the 'get pissed all the time attitude' will change.

 

[iSparky]

A lot of problems are always going to start when large groups become enclosed and basically put in a paddock, you don't want to put large groups inside a circle, they will retaliate.

problems were well underway before the containment, it was a good tactial move from the police and helped prevent it spreading further than it did.

 

[Feed Me]

Have they? They've got a vote (which they may well lose) on a system which they don't want. Yeah, good going.

It's a start - and one that the Cons would never have sanctioned had they gotten a majority in the first place.

 

[Mozza]

What's your point? You're complaining that they didn't tell us before the election. A month ago was after the election and the coalition was in full swing...

They planned to abandon the pledge pre-election, that plan leaked last month.

Is violence ever legitimate?

Those that send this country to war love peaceful protest, they are cheap to police and easy to ignore.

 

[Feed Me]

"In a document marked "confidential" and dated 16 March, the head of the secret pre-election coalition negotiating team, Danny Alexander, wrote: "On tuition fees we should seek agreement on part-time students and leave the rest. We will have clear yellow water with the other [parties] on raising the tuition fee cap, so let us not cause ourselves more headaches." "

"Secret pre-election coalition negotiating team"... mmm.

In any case - I've never claimed to be shocked by all this. If that quote is legit, then it confirms what many of us have been saying all along - you make concessions and cut deals to get strong coalition government. With that in mind, why the shock and indignance now that a political party hasn't delivered a manifesto pledge.

For the record - I think that quote is taken from someone doing some contingency planning. I don't believe they were happy to scrap the policy, but I do believe that it's one that they were prepared to give up in the event of them getting the opportunity to get involved in governing...

 

[Wolverine]

A far bigger issue for the Lib Dems is the issue of electoral reform - that potentially could change our entire political landscape.

---

In any case, University fees are not paid off up front - they work on a tax basis, out of your pay cheque. So I don't really buy into the whole, closing the door to poorer students argument. You'll only be paying these fees if you reach a certain threshold.

It's not ideal to see fees rise, but it's no where near as dramatic as is being made out. People are taking the £9000 figure and running with it - there are a number of important caveats that are not being reported.

Its a lot of debt, and a hastily put together policy for which no real specifics have been communicated to the public.

Amidst the inevitable hyperbole, there are genuine concerns, minimum now is 6 grand per year and for a majority of middle-class background students its going to be probably nearer to the 9 grand figure to pay.

Think of it realistically, graduates marrying other graduates etc. Mortgage, other repayments and then this, a huge time will be spent clearing debts.

The general feeling among students, is that its fundamentally unfair that the cuts are being funded by taken a disproportionally large amount from students' futures.

 

[peterstorey]

Have they? They've got a vote (which they may well lose) on a system which they don't want. Yeah, good going.

It doesn't matter since no one's ever going to vote for them again under any system. Of course, what they'll probably end up doing is facilitating the kind of first-past-the-post regime that'll favour the Tories, then Clegg can go and join them officially.