The Higher Education Thread | First University with £18k pa fees to open

Anyone that wants to go to university should be able to go to university. If they need to be better advised at an earlier date that their future might be better served doing something else is another matter, they shouldn't be scared away from doing a degree because of debt.

Someone posted a great Stewart Lee comment on the subject of a course's perceived lack of "worth" as well, can't remember where though.
 
IMO Costs of cleanups from these demos n riots should be deducted from the overall higher education budget.

If the students create a demo environment that causes public unrest and damage then its only right that they pay
 
The overall HE budget includes funding for university studies into cures for cancer, MS, HIV, Cystic Fibrosis, studies into climate change, cleaner fossil fuels, disease prevention, engineering projects and the like.

Do you really want to take money from this to pay for cleaning?
 
You can't put a price on cleanliness Frosty. Look smart, think smart.
 
99% of students move into a field that is entirely unrelated to their degree and that they could have got into anyway even without a degree.

Too many teenagers are going to university just because it's the "thing to do".
 
Count Duckula said:
99% of students move into a field that is entirely unrelated to their degree and that they could have got into anyway even without a degree.

Too many teenagers are going to university just because it's the "thing to do".
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Agree with this to a point. There are also a lot who have genuine ambition and goals though. Usually the ones who are at uni for the wrong reasons get found out at some point during their degree.

Perhaps funding would be better spent preparing students for life after A-levels, and showing them the options they have other than uni. A lot of the students at uni for the wrong reasons are there because they have no idea what else to do. And I can't blame them, there is zero support for school leavers looking to start a career, and uni seems the easiest/simplest option.
 
mjs020294 said:
Most sensible post of the entire thread.

The majority of degrees are a waste of time are not real a necessity in the real world. It seems daft that kids are brain washed and pushed into six years higher education will no real benefit. We need more vocational type courses and apprenticeships at 16 and less degree places.
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What are you basing that on?

The manufacturing sector is virtually non-existent and we are hardly short of tradespeople - there is a huge number of skilled people unemployed because the jobs weren't there after they had completed their training. There's no point in creating apprenticeships if there aren't the jobs to go with them.
 
Count Duckula said:
99% of students move into a field that is entirely unrelated to their degree and that they could have got into anyway even without a degree.

Too many teenagers are going to university just because it's the "thing to do".
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This is the joy of 'transferable skills'.

Not every History graduate will become a historian. Many should gain important analytical and evaluative skills that will stand them in good stead for a future career though.
 
topper said:
IMO Costs of cleanups from these demos n riots should be deducted from the overall higher education budget.

If the students create a demo environment that causes public unrest and damage then its only right that they pay
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Alas, the Taxpayer will foot the bill.

Protest about increases and cuts, but while you are at it cause more damage that will need to be repaired.

Brainless idiots.
 
Team Brian GB said:
The threshold will rise from £15,000 to £21,000 when you start paying and when interest will begin applying. For every £1,000 you earn more than £21,000 a year you will be paying off your student loan at £1.70 a week.

With regard to Ireland, I find it very frustrating but think of it as a £7 Billion investment in our own economic stability - If Ireland defaulted and their economy went into turmoil then Northern Ireland would follow a day later, Britain would face a tidal wave of immigrants and our banks would face another wave of cancelling tens of billions worth of debt.
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Why do keep using the income in yearly amounts and the payment in weekly amounts?

That is 1.70 for every 19.23 per week.

That makes it more than 8.5% of your income over 21 grand.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Why do keep using the income in yearly amounts and the payment in weekly amounts?

That is 1.70 for every 19.23 per week.

That makes it more than 8.5% of your income over 21 grand.
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You need to consider take home pay. It's more like £1.70 for every £12 of take home pay, 14%.
 
Haven't been following this story closely, maybe one of the British posters can help me out. I'm thinking of doing an online Masters with a UK university. Are all fees going to increase or is it just for full-time students who are studying on campus?
 
topper said:
IMO Costs of cleanups from these demos n riots should be deducted from the overall higher education budget.

If the students create a demo environment that causes public unrest and damage then its only right that they pay
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TheReligion said:
Alas, the Taxpayer will foot the bill.

Protest about increases and cuts, but while you are at it cause more damage that will need to be repaired.

Brainless idiots.
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vvvv

Frosty said:
The overall HE budget includes funding for university studies into cures for cancer, MS, HIV, Cystic Fibrosis, studies into climate change, cleaner fossil fuels, disease prevention, engineering projects and the like.

Do you really want to take money from this to pay for cleaning?
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Yes alas..we the tax payer will barely if at all feel the burden of this clean up on an individual level..

For shame. We should gass the little oiks.

Why in my day......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
rednev said:
What are you basing that on?

The manufacturing sector is virtually non-existent and we are hardly short of tradespeople -
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And why exactly is that? I would actually dispute the fact there is no need for skilled engineers and mechanics etc. Maybe right now there aren't many jobs around but in a buoyant economy there is far more need for skilled tradesmen than people with degrees.

rednev said:
There's no point in creating apprenticeships if there aren't the jobs to go with them.
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No real point handing out degrees if there are no real jobs to go with them. ;)

If you want to do a degree you better damned well considered what your career path and income will be down the road.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Is knowledge merely a means to an end?
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:lol:

Sure, educate yourself all you want but don't expect the tax payer to pick up the bill. I did a Degree and Master when I had a full time job and family. If someone wants knowledge and education there are lots of other avenues available.
 
Frosty said:
This is the joy of 'transferable skills'.

Not every History graduate will become a historian. Many should gain important analytical and evaluative skills that will stand them in good stead for a future career though.
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I disagree, I'm afraid. History graduates end up in jobs that are nothing to do with history not because the skills they developed during their degrees help them adapt to other fields, but because their degrees are so meaningless that they are forced to look elsewhere - there's only a certain number of museum curators the economy can stand.

I would wager that a huge percentage of graduates (particularly those with Arts degrees) end up in jobs that are (1) completely and utterly unrelated to their field of study, and (2) do not require a degree to get into in the first place. Even most "2:1 minimum" graduate schemes only put you in at the level you'd have worked yourself to anyway in the three years otherwise spent at university. On top of which, you'd have been earning for that three years, not accruing huge debts.


MikeUpNorth said:
Is knowledge merely a means to an end?
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For most people, yes.
 
shaydun said:
Haven't been following this story closely, maybe one of the British posters can help me out. I'm thinking of doing an online Masters with a UK university. Are all fees going to increase or is it just for full-time students who are studying on campus?
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When are you starting?
 
shaydun said:
Haven't been following this story closely, maybe one of the British posters can help me out. I'm thinking of doing an online Masters with a UK university. Are all fees going to increase or is it just for full-time students who are studying on campus?
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Since you're not a British citizen (at least I'm pretty sure you're not) you'll be paying full whack for the fees anyway (£12,000 per annum and upwards), so I doubt those will rise particularly.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I pity them. And I mean that.
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So you'd want the taxpayer to foot the bill for millions of people to be unproductive and costly, merely for the sake of advancing their knowledge in fields that provide no benefit to the country as a whole?

If people want to learn, then good on them. But I'm afraid they should fund it themselves, because this country has better things to do than pay a twenty-one year old to write the hundred-thousandth essay on Germany's descent into Nazism.
 
mjs020294 said:
:lol:

Sure, educate yourself all you want but don't expect the tax payer to pick up the bill. I did a Degree and Master when I had a full time job and family. If someone wants knowledge and education there are lots of other avenues available.
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I'm happy that my tax money contributes to training musicians, writers, researchers, linguists, historians and the rest of it, in the same way my money helps to train doctors and scientists. All of it enriches our culture and often directly benefits me. Literature, art, culture - these are the things which make life worth living.

For example, I don't want to read a book on the culture of ancient civilisations by some self-trained amateur, I am more than happy to subsidise someone to spend time developing their skills in the field, and acquiring the knowledge to write a book that is worth reading.
 
But how many authors are there who write historical books worth reading? A hundred? Two hundred? Indeed, most of those historians write for the artificially created "market" of students studying their course!

And yet thousands upon thousands upon thousands of students study history. Is it really worth funding them all to go through university just to push forward a few dozen as authors in a particular field?

You compare the Arts students to doctors - if only one in every thousand Medicine students actually went on to become a worthwhile doctor then perhaps you might have a point.
 
I'm not going to be able to convince you as we have fundamentally different ideas of what counts as 'worthwhile'.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I'm happy that my tax money contributes to training musicians, writers, researchers, linguists, historians and the rest of it, in the same way my money helps to train doctors and scientists. All of it enriches our culture and often directly benefits me. Literature, art, culture - these are the things which make life worth living.

For example, I don't want to read a book on the culture of ancient civilisations by some self-trained amateur, I am more than happy to subsidise someone to spend time developing their skills in the field, and acquiring the knowledge to write a book that is worth reading.
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I think you will find the UK had plenty of those in the 50s, 60s, and 70s and barely any of them had degrees.

That isn't the real issue because those courses are at a minimum. Its the plethora of generic courses like business studies that are of limited use. The education system needs to be more aligned to the real need, and that may well include producing fine musicians and writers etc.
 
mjs020294 said:
I think you will find the UK had plenty of those in the 50s, 60s, and 70s and barely any of them had degrees.
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You are very far from the truth. I hate to defend the value of knowledge in purely economic terms, but in this case it holds up as the creative industries have been one of the fastest growing sectors of the British economy.
According to the findings, Britain's creative sector employs 1.8 million people and makes up 7.3 per cent of the national economy.

Will Hutton, the chief executive of the Work Foundation, said: "These sectors are all very different, but what they have in common and what sets them apart is that they commercialise expressive value.

"They profit from creativity, cultural meaning and symbolism. We need better understanding about the mechanisms through which creativity generates value, both within the creative industries themselves and in the wider economy beyond."

The report's findings were welcomed by the Department of Culture, Media and Sport, which commissioned the independent report.

"The UK creative industries outperform every other European state and in the 21st century they have moved to the centre stage of the UK economy," the Culture Secretary, Tessa Jowell, said. "The size of the creative industries is comparable to the financial services."
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Creative industries 'fuel Britain's economic growth' - This Britain, UK - The Independent
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I'm not going to be able to convince you as we have fundamentally different ideas of what counts as 'worthwhile'.
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And yet you act like you speak for the nation. When you personally are paying for all of those students to be an unrelenting drain on the national economy with no financial gain at the end of it, then you can decide that their degrees are "worthwhile" in some wishy-washy, abstract fashion.

Knowledge is nice, but if everyone sat around talking about Descartes and Caesar all day then we'd all starve to death.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
You are very far from the truth.
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Nothing of real note in that article. The increasing contribution from creative arts to the overall economy could be as a result of other areas suffering so badly. It also doesn't disprove my comment. The UK pretty much dominated the world music scene for the decades I mentioned.

If the economy dictates a need then the education system should respond.
 
mjs020294 said:
Nothing of real note in that article. The increasing contribution from creative arts to the overall economy could be as a result of other areas suffering so badly.
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That article was before the crash, on the back of the longest period of economic growth on record.
 
I don't really know how any individual looking to better themselves through higher education can be criticised for it to be honest. Why not just be damned with it and get rid of schooling all together? After all, if we all sat around studying Spanish and Maths all day we'd all starve to death.
 
I'm not criticising those looking to better themselves through higher education; I'm criticising that they seem to hold a belief that it's a God-given right that they should be able to do so for free. What they seem to fail to realise is that the money has to come from somewhere, and if it's not coming from them... well, then it must be coming from someone else.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
That article was before the crash, on the back of the longest period of economic growth on record.
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Still nothing of note in it, sorry. Provide some historical data. It was 7.3% in 2007, what was it in 1997, 1987, 1977, 1967 etc.

I actually have an issue with this paragraph:

The report found that international clients were relying on British creative talent within the country's advertising, design and architecture firms like never before, spending up to £2bn a year with UK agencies. Last year, Britain beat the US to the number one slot in the world for advertising excellence for the first time.

The UK has ALWAYS had an incredibly strong advertising sector, and even the US companies have been dominated with Brits since the 60s. Same goes for architecture. Plus both of those professions have very clear career paths and a need for degrees, which moots your whole argument.
 
The money should come from all of us. Education is the primary influence in social mobility and it benefits all of us indirectly.

Just as we pay for people's healthcare, we should pay for their education at school and university. How long before we're making five year olds take out loans to attend school?
 
Except it is coming from them. As soon as they leave uni, they will be paying taxes too, and funding the next group of students. Education, like health, should never be a concern when it comes to funding in my opinion. I would give as much free education to anyone and everyone if it was in my power. Knowledge can only serve to further mankind, and it's what makes us so unique in the animal kingdom. If you want to point fingers, do so at military spending.

And why is it only uni students taking the flack here? Why not 6 year olds? Or students at all level of education? Did you do A-levels? Or GCSE's? I assume you did at least one, and didn't pay to do them
 
Except it is coming from them. As soon as they leave uni, they will be paying taxes too, and funding the next group of students. Education, like health, should never be a concern when it comes to funding in my opinion. I would give as much free education to anyone and everyone if it was in my power. Knowledge can only serve to further mankind, and it's what makes us so unique in the animal kingdom. If you want to point fingers, do so at military spending.

And why is it only uni students taking the flack here? Why not 6 year olds? Or students at all level of education? Did you do A-levels? Or GCSE's? I assume you did at least one, and didn't pay to do them
 
SmashedHombre said:
And why is it only uni students taking the flack here? Why not 6 year olds? Or students at all level of education? Did you do A-levels? Or GCSE's? I assume you did at least one, and didn't pay to do them
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Because six-year olds and GSCE students aren't causing tens of thousands of pounds worth of damage and disruption in our capital city at the moment in an effort to prove what responsible people they are.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
The money should come from all of us. Education is the primary influence in social mobility and it benefits all of us indirectly.

Just as we pay for people's healthcare, we should pay for their education at school and university. How long before we're making five year olds take out loans to attend school?
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I don't disagree with the above TBH. I just think the system needs a few minor tweaks.

I strongly believe that health and education should be free for everyone until at least 18, which it is. I just think at 16+ too many kids are pursuing academic goals.

The education system should be more tailored to the economy. More degrees courses should be available with better grants for areas of need. Its fecking nuts that western societies import nurses and pay foreigners pretty high salaries because the system doesn't create enough workers. Same goes for IT and other areas.

You should have to pay for the bulk of you university education with grants and loans, and ideally increased taxes when you hit the workforce. If any area like nursing has shortages then the system should respond quickly to increase course places and grants should encourage people into the areas of need.
 
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