Ins AND out transfers. Not 10 incomings. I expected 5 players bought and 3-4 sold.
The John Murtough Era
- Thread starter Trex
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Things had started to look good, but in a matter of days this looks a disastrous start. Hopefully, it will swing to other direction by the end of August. He needs to deliver Frenkie for Erik.
The fact we haven't sold anyone is a bit disturbing too.
I was just wondering what happened to all the whingers and moaners? Had not seen the usual suspects in the threads I usually follow. Then I stumbled onto this. All gathered here.The whinger's echo chamber.
Are you happy with how the summer is panning out?
The whinger's echo chamber.
Could be argued it's not looking brilliant just yet, couldn't it?
Fair, but on the other hand, we've not capitulated and overpaid for second/third choices either right? No stupid contract extentions either.
Think we need to acknowledge that we're in for a couple of seasons of pain and slow rebuilding
You literally came in, added nothing and argued against the clouds. How very sophisticated.
The whinger's echo chamber.
So, that is your standard for us? To not feck up and that is good business.
I'm on sure if either of you have followed the structural developments over the past few months. We've completely reset out scouting department and hired a key figure in data analytics. We've made what looks like the most progressive managerial decision we could make and resisted a favorite of the old regime (Poch) in doing so. We've sacked off one of the most toxic senior figures in Matt Judge, who was atrocious in our contract negotiations. We've refused to be shaken down in the transfer market, and although it will take us to this month, should secure 3-4 signings who can help in our pre-season.
What more do you want?
It's a bit crazy to think 10 transfers is a job for one single window. Even Rangnick was insinuating this takes multiple windows to execute, he said "its not rocket science, it can be done in just 2-3 windows" at the time.
We look on set to get 3-4 soon and then I think the forward will come very late. That's absolutely fine by me, getting the majority of bodies in early in the window.
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Ronaldo wanting out isn't exactly a stain on Murtough to be fair. He was a Woodward and Ole signing who is now creating problems
New manager, new DOF & team. So you cant compare it with Klopp, Pep or even Moyes etc who have been at their clubs long enough that they just need to do the occasional touch-up on their squads.
There will be growing pains and ETH seems married to the idea that FdJ is his key enabler to playing his philosophy at United. And then you take the complication of Barca and their financial clusterfeck, it gets complicated. This one is on ETH.
But they certainly aren't doing one deal at a time unlike Woodward -- which was the budgetary-based approach.
We actually have a footballing approach to our activities. Buy what you need is based on priorities. But they did pivot from the original priority lists -- and bought Malacia. So you cant say they arent flexible.
So how are they doing? As expected IMO. Judge them next season and next. They would have streamlined the dysfunctional scouting department, or even how they organise themselves within United.
They are doing a re-engineering work of the United organisation no thanks to Woodward. It will take time.
I like the subtle differences so far. Hopefully the plans continue to go through.
It's hard enough to find top players to come here without Champions league football, but trying to find 5/6 top players with a budget of 120 million now, is impossible.
I can see where your coming from but there's no way to make a judgement that those decisions in structural changes are of any merit without seeing the influence / impact of them. There's every chance the new individuals are just as bad as the old ones those types of transitions can only be measured with the passing of time. ETH has been said to totally disregard the scouting network with this most recent window.
For me that there's still no substance for John Murtough to be identified as having done a good job thus far.
Daddy, chill
The whinger's echo chamber.
You asked what is different, or what has changed, and I told you.
No one is out here concluding the success (or lack of) of Murtough, and the only people that are would be the moaning imbeciles who think he must be shit before a ball is kicked in the new campaign.
I think he's done a good job this far, along with Arnold. But whether his revamp is going to be fruitful where it really matters, we'll have to see.
Taking out Judge was an big hit in my books. So I think there are progressive steps at least, but I cant say anything more than that.
No the consensus of my question was in response to your original post which was that you said the changes were good. There's a clear distinction between changes being good and changes for changes sake. Murtough has been involved in a process where changes have been made and he seems to have inherited a reputation that they are good with no qualitative way of accurately measuring them.
As it stands Murtough has gained nothing and is in a position to have everything to prove. It's not the other way around.
But you don't need to wait 6 months to know that sacking off Matt Judge is a good move, or that hiring Dominic Jordan (or anyone reputable) to put focus on data analytics is good. These are really really belated moves which we didn't have in place for years, and what set us back behind our rivals.
You also don't need to wait for months to know the idea of having football people in a footballing role, such as Murtough instead of Woody, is a good move. Nor that a CEO should not intefere in footballing transfer targets.
These are basic things that we dont need to wait for. The rest sure, we need to see how fruitful it is - the new scouting, the new manager, the adjusted approach to transfers etc.
Murtough was appointed in March 2021, so far he's:
- Signed Ole to a longer deal
- Gave Ole a holiday in hopes of turning the disaster around
- sacked Ole anyway
- Hired a Data Analyst
- Hired Ralf as interim and consultant
- Didn't listen to the interim on what was needed in January
- Sacked two head scouts
- Hired Ten Hag
- Sacked the consultant
- Accepted Matt Judge' resignation.
Thats off the top of my head, but the negative in that list far outweigh the positive.
You can't attribute the resignation of Judge as Murtough getting rid of someone, oh and he has failed to replace Judge during his notice period and hasn't replaced the head scouts.
Can only hope Ten Hag can become the miracle Murtough and Co hopes him to be.
- Signed Ole to a longer deal
- Gave Ole a holiday in hopes of turning the disaster around
- sacked Ole anyway
- Hired a Data Analyst
- Hired Ralf as interim and consultant
- Didn't listen to the interim on what was needed in January
- Sacked two head scouts
- Hired Ten Hag
- Sacked the consultant
- Accepted Matt Judge' resignation.
Thats off the top of my head, but the negative in that list far outweigh the positive.
You can't attribute the resignation of Judge as Murtough getting rid of someone, oh and he has failed to replace Judge during his notice period and hasn't replaced the head scouts.
Can only hope Ten Hag can become the miracle Murtough and Co hopes him to be.
Hm...fee from selling players? The fact that they are on big contract can't be always an excuse.
We could have sell Hendo for at least 15 mil. But we decided to loan him. And that goes for lots of our players. We are just reluctant to sell our players/force them out
Depends on which bit.
I completely understand why the players we are going for are exclusively ETH targets. Our scouting has been shit for years; I rather think Woodward liked it that way so he could play at being DoF. There’s absolutely no way that it could have been rebuilt to be fit for purpose between Woodward’s departure and the start of the window. If we’re still just pursuing ETH targets next time then I’ll start to be worried.
Judge has been on the way out for quite a while now. If it’s true that the club only realised that they’d need someone to do the legals once the first transfer negotiation was almost complete then I agree that’s poor. Maybe they had Tom Keane already lined up, and only announced it later.
It’s teetering on the edge at the moment. Because if we’ve spent all summer chasing FDJ to not get him and we lose Ronaldo then fans won’t be best pleased either way.
Ronaldo can go but there needs to be a replacement in and I don’t think we’ve planned one by the way the reports suggest we want to hold on. So it seems we’re struggling to plan effectively again.
This could all change still though, but we are just so slow at getting anything done.
Ronaldo can go but there needs to be a replacement in and I don’t think we’ve planned one by the way the reports suggest we want to hold on. So it seems we’re struggling to plan effectively again.
This could all change still though, but we are just so slow at getting anything done.
Yeah I’ve still got doubts as to whether Murtough’s up to it, though I’m more than happy to give him a go.
What’s slightly worrying is that he’s had long enough at the club to see what’s been done wrong (lots) and maybe should have been in a better position to pull the right levers when he was given the opportunity to do so.
Anyway, I believe that Arnold is a far more important agent for change than Murtough; in the event that the latter proves to be a dud I trust Arnold to do the right thing.
What levers?
Not sure. I know having Woodward around wouldn’t have helped, but he was appointed DoF quite a while before the former left and not a lot seemed to change. The whirlwind of change that’s undoubtedly happened since Woodward’s departure might be driven by Arnold rather than Murtough (though obviously with significant input from him).
Woodward was on the way out when the club was vacillating over sacking poor old Ole. Surely Murtough could have been more decisive then without fear of repercussions.
All speculation of course. Amid all the absurd negativity and “nothing has changed” garbage I’m just trying not to get carried away in the other direction.
not to throw more nonsense at this argument, but just to say the noise is ronaldo wants to leave because nothing is being done at the club / lack of ambition. i know ole will still be blamed for things that are happening in 10 years at the club, ive accepted this fact, but whatever happens this summer, some fair blame needs to be placed on the people actually running the club today. at the same time of course murtough and co need time, that doesn't mean it isn't his shortcomings the situation we are in
I don't have much faith in the new regime, but I won't be judging them over one summer, a few months or even a year (unless them absolutely botch things up). We're in a sticky situation that even if everything is done perfectly well will take time, money and patience to repair, both on and off the pitch. And it's unlikely to be done perfectly well because there will be potholes and errors along the way so we'll also have to accept those.
If our transfer targets are actually those being reported then what is the point in the scouting system, director of football, new policy, etc etc.
Looks like Ten Hag is going after his own preferred targets which is fine but the United hierarchy will look foolish again if it goes tits up.
I doubt Erikson, De Jong, Malacia were on our radar 3 months ago?
Looks like Ten Hag is going after his own preferred targets which is fine but the United hierarchy will look foolish again if it goes tits up.
I doubt Erikson, De Jong, Malacia were on our radar 3 months ago?
https://www.skysports.com/football/...sie-and-former-ajax-stars-to-rebuild-the-club
Hope ETH's transfer strategy works. I would like to believe he had heavy influence over Overmars in Ajax's recruitment process.
Hope ETH's transfer strategy works. I would like to believe he had heavy influence over Overmars in Ajax's recruitment process.
Basically hes another learning on the job, along with Arnold. They have experience in other areas, but transfers are new. Maybe they are letting TH lead this window because its also his first season here, but obviously more experienced and in the know with the players being bought/brought in. If next summers or even january window runs more smoothly and quickly, we will know improvement has been made over the Woodward/Judge era, otherwise we are stuck in a downward spiralling loop. For now i am giving them them the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not allowed to be negative here but I will so that so far I can't see much that has changed when it comes to getting players in. Somethings still feels very wrong compared with other top clubs. It's hard to believe that we are about to jet off on pre-season tour with almost no new faces
Yeah this is what's concerning. It looks like with the staff streamlined ETH has a completely free reign to ask for who he wants. It's good he is able to influence things but it seems like a lack of direction from the club. Still time and we may be working on other things.
If it all does go tits up I guess ETH can't have similar complaints to our other managers but the club may look a bit silly going all in on specific ETH targets.
It does look like ETH has a lot of influence, but this we all knew.
ETH had very clear demands and allegedly also had to present how he would bring United back to being a CL club / contender. The players ETH is after, are the players he knows United needs to get back to that level.
With the "small" budget and the many holes, Eredivisie/Dutch players are best value for money to get that as soon as possible.
We could also sign Bowen, Tomori and blow the entire budget if that's what you like.
I am sure a more streamlined way of approaching transfers (by data analytics) will be evolved over the coming years.
Though the players that ETH is after, also come out of the data very well.
ETH had very clear demands and allegedly also had to present how he would bring United back to being a CL club / contender. The players ETH is after, are the players he knows United needs to get back to that level.
With the "small" budget and the many holes, Eredivisie/Dutch players are best value for money to get that as soon as possible.
We could also sign Bowen, Tomori and blow the entire budget if that's what you like.
I am sure a more streamlined way of approaching transfers (by data analytics) will be evolved over the coming years.
Though the players that ETH is after, also come out of the data very well.
I think Ralf and ETH were good appointments with all the knowledge we had at the time. Nobody in the world thought Ralf would be as bad as he was. Unproven and a risk yes. But by hiring an interim and not a permanent manager we were able to get the most sought after manager in world football after pep and klopp who are out of reach.
ETH didn't care what Ralf had to say. Maybe he didn't like the way Ralf carried on. Again that toxicity wasn't predictable.
As for all the scouts stuff, people heralded that as good news when they left. They could well have been replaced internally or maybe it will take time to replace them properly. We have seen paper links to different chief scouts at other clubs. That could be a project for murtough through the rest of the year.. what difference would a brand new scout make in the middle of a transfer window
As for the transfer window itself, it really does seem a mess to me. But maybe we had to agree that ETH would have control over signing for one window to sign him. That really seems like the situation to me. Hence we will get a million Dutch fellas in. And beyond that hopefully ETH has to work within the structure which probably isn't ready or close to ready this summer.
ETH didn't care what Ralf had to say. Maybe he didn't like the way Ralf carried on. Again that toxicity wasn't predictable.
As for all the scouts stuff, people heralded that as good news when they left. They could well have been replaced internally or maybe it will take time to replace them properly. We have seen paper links to different chief scouts at other clubs. That could be a project for murtough through the rest of the year.. what difference would a brand new scout make in the middle of a transfer window
As for the transfer window itself, it really does seem a mess to me. But maybe we had to agree that ETH would have control over signing for one window to sign him. That really seems like the situation to me. Hence we will get a million Dutch fellas in. And beyond that hopefully ETH has to work within the structure which probably isn't ready or close to ready this summer.
You simply cannot judge a transfer window right now. Hell, you can't even judge a transfer window at the start of the season. Last summer's transfers looked great - getting in Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho was widely regarded as our best transfer window in years. But it was apparent quite quickly that there was no actual plan for our transfers and the season fell apart.
There is no way to judge how good this transfer window has been until the season is underway and we can see the team's performances on the pitch and judge how much our transfers (or lack thereof) are affecting the season.
in my opinion, if we don't get transfers done, we might be judging how to stay in the top ten, not the top four
Surely you judge the window when it closes?
So far this has been as bad as nearly any summer window Woodward was involved in.
The next few weeks are critical.
The next few weeks are critical.
We go on pre season in less than 48 hours and one player is through the door. It’s dogshit.
I said two weeks ago that the large chunk of our business should be completed prior to departure, so they haven’t got long to get cracking.
I said two weeks ago that the large chunk of our business should be completed prior to departure, so they haven’t got long to get cracking.
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