The John Murtough Era

Adnan

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It is irrelevant because you are claiming our recruitment staff were ignored and Ole and Phelan were running the show. We were happy to overrule Jose, happy to renew contracts without knowing who next manager would be but powerless as soon as Ole and Phelan turned up. Makes zero sense and we’ve also now started to dismantle our Committee so makes your point even more irrelevant.

You think that question is a clever way of proving your point but it is completely misguided and pointless.
I'm not making any claims here, you did that when you said it was common for managers to have their personal scouts. Did you make that up or can you back it up?

I think you'll also notice that a transfer committee doesn't exist in a head coach/DoF setup. So it's not about dismantling something that doesn't have any meaning in the context of how Liverpool and United were running their structures under the manager model.
 

Roboc7

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I'm not making any claims here, you did that when you said it was common for managers to have their personal scouts. Did you make that up or can you back it up?

I think you'll also notice that a transfer committee doesn't exist in a head coach/DoF setup. So it's not about dismantling something that doesn't have any meaning in the context of how Liverpool and United were running their structures under the manager model.
Your claim made no sense initially, now the club making changes themselves makes it completely null and void. Sometimes you just have to hold your hand up and say you were wrong. Comparison to Liverpool made no sense initially and if possible even less so now.
 

Adnan

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Your claim made no sense initially, now the club making changes themselves makes it completely null and void. Sometimes you just have to hold your hand up and say you were wrong. Comparison to Liverpool made no sense initially and if possible even less so now.
The club made changes way before today, unless you had your head buried in the sand. And it's due to those changes that Rangnick arrived, along with the potential arrival of ten Hag and why the two scouts left the club.

I'm also now going to assume that you fabricated your claim about it being common that managers have their own personal scouts at clubs.
 

Roboc7

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The club made changes way before today, unless you had your head buried in the sand. And it's due to those changes that Rangnick arrived, along with the potential arrival of ten Hag and why the two scouts left the club.

I'm also now going to assume that you fabricated your claim about it being common that managers have their own personal scouts at clubs.
No need to get tetchy. I said we needed collective accountability and that’s what’s happening, what you said just hasn’t aged well and made no sense to begin with.

Seen you claiming Phelan is reason Maguire is here. Does he look that good in a pair of shorts that he got everyone to change their minds on Maguire, and spend way more money on him, why was there no veto, if people choose to go along with something they don’t agree with why are you not accountable. Why could people stand up to Jose but not Ole. Don’t attempt to answer any of that because don’t need to read any more made up theories.

You have no idea what goes on same as anyone else but your narrative falls apart as soon as any logic is applied.
 

Adnan

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No need to get tetchy. I said we needed collective accountability and that’s what’s happening, what you said just hasn’t aged well and made no sense to begin with.

Seen you claiming Phelan is reason Maguire is here. Does he look that good in a pair of shorts that he got everyone to change their minds on Maguire, and spend way more money on him, why was there no veto, if people choose to go along with something they don’t agree with why are you not accountable. Why could people stand up to Jose but not Ole. Don’t attempt to answer any of that because don’t need to read any more made up theories.

You have no idea what goes on same as anyone else but your narrative falls apart as soon as any logic is applied.
Why was there no veto? Because things had changed again. And unlike under Mourinho where there was a veto, now it took 5 scouts to over-rule Solskjaer on signing players. And below are direct quotes from Solskjaer saying as such and he also repeated the line about the 5 scout rule on MUTV.

Solskjaer: “The scouting network has been really good, so it’s not like I can just pick someone and, if five of them say no, then I’ll force things through. It’s a team effort there as well. Of course, Bruno has come in and been fantastic for us.”

https://www.manutd.com/en/amp/news/detail/ole-praises-man-united-scouting-department-as-window-opens

First we had the veto and then we had the 5 scout rule.
 
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AdNani

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Perhaps Lawlor and Bout being moved to make way for a new Deputy Director of football who has also worked as a Chief Scout?? Paul Mitchell perhaps?
 

Roboc7

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Why was there no veto? Because things had changed again. And unlike under Mourinho where there was a veto, now it took 5 scouts to over-rule Solskjaer on signing players. And below are direct quotes from Solskjaer saying as such and he also repeated the line about the 5 scout rule on MUTV.

Solskjaer: “The scouting network has been really good, so it’s not like I can just pick someone and, if five of them say no, then I’ll force things through. It’s a team effort there as well. Of course, Bruno has come in and been fantastic for us.”

https://www.manutd.com/en/amp/news/detail/ole-praises-man-united-scouting-department-as-window-opens

First we had the veto and then we had the 5 scout rule.
You’ve completely misread that I’m afraid what he’s saying is he doesn’t have the power to force it through if ‘say’ five of them say no. That is a hypothetical example not confirmation of a formal procedure, it also confirms recruitment was being done collectively and Ole or even the all powerful Mike Phelan can’t just have his way. Completely undermines your whole argument.

He’s also praising the scouts and showing they work together, all going against your argument. You’ve summed up my point perfectly though.
 

Adnan

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You’ve completely misread that I’m afraid what he’s saying is he doesn’t have the power to force it through if ‘say’ five of them say no. That is a hypothetical example not confirmation of a formal procedure, it also confirms recruitment was being done collectively and Ole or even the all powerful Mike Phelan can’t just have his way. Completely undermines your whole argument.

He’s also praising the scouts and showing they work together, all going against your argument.
Do you know how absurd it is to require 5 scouts to over-rule the manager, when renowned Sporting directors work in teams of 8? The Bruno signing required 5 scouts to over-rule Solskjaer, and do you know how many scouts we have covering Portugal? One, maybe two, so good luck trying to get detailed reports from 5 scouts.
 

Revaulx

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No need to get tetchy. I said we needed collective accountability and that’s what’s happening, what you said just hasn’t aged well and made no sense to begin with.

Seen you claiming Phelan is reason Maguire is here. Does he look that good in a pair of shorts that he got everyone to change their minds on Maguire, and spend way more money on him, why was there no veto, if people choose to go along with something they don’t agree with why are you not accountable. Why could people stand up to Jose but not Ole. Don’t attempt to answer any of that because don’t need to read any more made up theories.

You have no idea what goes on same as anyone else but your narrative falls apart as soon as any logic is applied.
I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

The club had “backed” Jose over several windows, culminating in the disastrous signing of Alexis. By summer 2019 even the hopeless lot running United were wondering where it was all going, and for once asked the scouts what they thought about Jose’s shopping list. The scouts expressing doubts would have been music to their ears and gave them the excuse they needed to use their veto.

Ole then came in on a wave of optimism and actually seemed to have a plan for how he wanted the club to go; faulty or otherwise. That made them go all giddy and they bought into it, regardless of the scouts’ reservations.
 

Roboc7

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Do you know how absurd it is to require 5 scouts to over-rule the manager, when renowned Sporting directors work in teams of 8? The Bruno signing required 5 scouts to over-rule Solskjaer, and do you know how many scouts we have covering Portugal? One, maybe two, so good luck trying to get detailed reports from 5 scouts.
Like I said you’ve misread it, he’s not confirming how many have to disagree with him. He’s giving an example to show he can’t just have his way and force through what he wants. You can’t misread things and present them as facts. That link states recruitment is a team effort and team decision, and now more members of the. team are being shown the door, so your just wrong I’m afraid.
 

Adnan

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Like I said you’ve misread it, he’s not confirming how many have to disagree with him. He’s giving an example to show he can’t just have his way and force through what he wants. You can’t misread things and present them as facts. That link states recruitment is a team effort and decision so your just wrong I’m afraid.
I know what he said and he repeated the same via MUTV, which is that if 5 scouts disagree with him, then he can't force through deals.

And i'm saying the above is absurd and unsustainable due to how the scouts have been utilised in different countries/regions. So in the case of Bruno Fernandes, it's reported we only have one fulltime scout covering the Portuguese league.
 

horsechoker

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Just how powerful is Murtough now?

It seems he's the central figure of our footballing structure. Fletcher seems to be his Robin.
 

DannyCAFC

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Just how powerful is Murtough now?

It seems he's the central figure of our footballing structure. Fletcher seems to be his Robin.
It looks like everything pretty ,much revolves around him doesn't he? Seems to be some suggestion that Judge might have left because he's now reporting in to Murtough rather than directly to the CEO.
 

horsechoker

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It looks like everything pretty ,much revolves around him doesn't he? Seems to be some suggestion that Judge might have left because he's now reporting in to Murtough rather than directly to the CEO.
I'll call for his head when we don't win the quadruple
 

Yakuza_devils

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Murtough era so far:

Pros:
1) Appoint ETH
2) Sack the useless scouts

Cons:
1) Appointed wrong interim manager ill suited to the squad
2) Didn't back the manager in Jan window when there are obvious weakness in the squad
3) Threw away a season in Nov without much fight
4) Fail to implement a modern style of play

There are still many areas Man Utd need to improve such as medical, nutrition, fitness, phycology, youth and etc. We really need to catch up fast with Liverpool and City. We are a few years behind.
 

Blood Mage

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He has it all to prove. He's a Glazer stooge as far as I'm concerned, we should have a proper DoF in place.
 

Ali Dia

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He has it all to prove. He's a Glazer stooge as far as I'm concerned, we should have a proper DoF in place.
If we’d got Ralf as DOF at the start of the season instead of Murtough and we’d made the same signings everyone would have been creaming themselves about how we were going to do this and that. Fact of the matter is I’m sure he’d feel the same way about the players and vice versa as it is now. The truth is this is just the start of something different. Yes it could go either way and yes it’s been poor so far but there was always going to be some pain and resistance to change, especially from the players who’ve essentially downed tools since they didn’t have a manager to throw under the bus anymore. I’ll give it a season or two and see how we fare out. The fact the position now exists and has some real power attached means we can always hire someone better or different if we need to down the road. I’m glad we are creating all these new departments at the club in the first place. It’s been a tedious wait but at least there’s some movement on modernisation
 

arthurka

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Sadly I feel confident by his appointment, the Glazers have a terrible track record when it comes to their people.
 

Yakuza_devils

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He has it all to prove. He's a Glazer stooge as far as I'm concerned, we should have a proper DoF in place.
Yes, it has been poor so far and we still see the same mistakes over and over again from the last decade. He is also from the catastrophic Ed's era.

Hope I'm wrong but there are lots of more qualified DOF than Murtough to execute this total revamp of football structure in one of the biggest club in the world.
 

simonhch

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Murtough era so far:

Pros:
1) Appoint ETH
2) Sack the useless scouts

Cons:
1) Appointed wrong interim manager ill suited to the squad
2) Didn't back the manager in Jan window when there are obvious weakness in the squad
3) Threw away a season in Nov without much fight
4) Fail to implement a modern style of play

There are still many areas Man Utd need to improve such as medical, nutrition, fitness, phycology, youth and etc. We really need to catch up fast with Liverpool and City. We are a few years behind.
I don’t think one looks at a football director in terms of months, it’s something that takes a couple of years or more to bear fruit, and see the changes start to work.

I’m neither playing devils advocate nor advocating for Murtough, but some thoughts do crop up regarding your cons:

1 We don’t know if another interim would’ve failed any better. It’s possible “interim” was the problem. It’s also worth considering this group of players is just rotten beyond repair. If appointing RR as interim was key to securing his involvement behind the scenes for the two year consultancy, it may yet prove to be the right appointment. I respect RR and I’m glad he’s involved moving forwards, but his work with the squad on a coaching basis has been deeply unimpressive so far.

2. We don’t know if that was his call or not. Or whether the scouts used their vetoes.Woodward was still in charge in January so I don’t think we can lay much blame (not knowingly anyway) at the feet of JM.

3. How did he throw away the season in November? By sacking Ole? Who everyone knew had to go? Or by appointing the wrong interim? (Everything is easier with hindsight - it was an appointment lauded by fans, the media and rival managers alike at the time).

4. He’s not a coach. His job will be to hire managers who have a consistent philosophy, rather than jumping all over the map. And to help bring in players that fit that playing ideology over successive transfer windows. Not sure how he was going to influence the style of play, mid season, without control of recruitment, without knowing who the next permanent manager was.

Im interested to see where this all goes. The restructuring is certainly in line with what you’d want to see, and what most would want to do themselves if given the chance. I think that now he has recently ascended to having full (apparent) control of all football matters, we need to give him a couple of seasons to see the fruits of his strategic intent. Anything more short term than that is somewhat pointless IMO.
 

Ish

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I don’t think one looks at a football director in terms of months, it’s something that takes a couple of years or more to bear fruit, and see the changes start to work.

I’m neither playing devils advocate nor advocating for Murtough, but some thoughts do crop up regarding your cons:

1 We don’t know if another interim would’ve failed any better. It’s possible “interim” was the problem. It’s also worth considering this group of players is just rotten beyond repair. If appointing RR as interim was key to securing his involvement behind the scenes for the two year consultancy, it may yet prove to be the right appointment. I respect RR and I’m glad he’s involved moving forwards, but his work with the squad on a coaching basis has been deeply unimpressive so far.

2. We don’t know if that was his call or not. Or whether the scouts used their vetoes.Woodward was still in charge in January so I don’t think we can lay much blame (not knowingly anyway) at the feet of JM.

3. How did he throw away the season in November? By sacking Ole? Who everyone knew had to go? Or by appointing the wrong interim? (Everything is easier with hindsight - it was an appointment lauded by fans, the media and rival managers alike at the time).

4. He’s not a coach. His job will be to hire managers who have a consistent philosophy, rather than jumping all over the map. And to help bring in players that fit that playing ideology over successive transfer windows. Not sure how he was going to influence the style of play, mid season, without control of recruitment, without knowing who the next permanent manager was.

Im interested to see where this all goes. The restructuring is certainly in line with what you’d want to see, and what most would want to do themselves if given the chance. I think that now he has recently ascended to having full (apparent) control of all football matters, we need to give him a couple of seasons to see the fruits of his strategic intent. Anything more short term than that is somewhat pointless IMO.
Good points and as you mentioned - it’s still early days but some decisions seem promising - minus giving Bruno a new contract while he’s been in terrible form.

The summer will tell us a lot more in terms of recruitment etc.
 

LawCharltonBest

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People are looking at Ten Hag to get United back to legitimacy.

But from my eyes, it's Murtough who has the biggest job. He's apparently been given full power over the footballing side, to fix Woodwards various messes.

What do we know about him? I know he was at Fulham and Everton. Not much else. Is there even a video out there of him talking?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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People are looking at Ten Hag to get United back to legitimacy.

But from my eyes, it's Murtough who has the biggest job. He's apparently been given full power over the footballing side, to fix Woodwards various messes.

What do we know about him? I know he was at Fulham and Everton. Not much else. Is there even a video out there of him talking?
He took in charged our academy and the women's team before replacing Ed I believe. I don't know how good our women'ts team now but our youth academy ain't doing bad reaching the final FA Cup youth for first time since 2011.
 

roseguy64

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People are looking at Ten Hag to get United back to legitimacy.

But from my eyes, it's Murtough who has the biggest job. He's apparently been given full power over the footballing side, to fix Woodwards various messes.

What do we know about him? I know he was at Fulham and Everton. Not much else. Is there even a video out there of him talking?
Search through @Adnan's posts.
 

Lentwood

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I don’t think one looks at a football director in terms of months, it’s something that takes a couple of years or more to bear fruit, and see the changes start to work.

I’m neither playing devils advocate nor advocating for Murtough, but some thoughts do crop up regarding your cons:

1 We don’t know if another interim would’ve failed any better. It’s possible “interim” was the problem. It’s also worth considering this group of players is just rotten beyond repair. If appointing RR as interim was key to securing his involvement behind the scenes for the two year consultancy, it may yet prove to be the right appointment. I respect RR and I’m glad he’s involved moving forwards, but his work with the squad on a coaching basis has been deeply unimpressive so far.

2. We don’t know if that was his call or not. Or whether the scouts used their vetoes.Woodward was still in charge in January so I don’t think we can lay much blame (not knowingly anyway) at the feet of JM.

3. How did he throw away the season in November? By sacking Ole? Who everyone knew had to go? Or by appointing the wrong interim? (Everything is easier with hindsight - it was an appointment lauded by fans, the media and rival managers alike at the time).

4. He’s not a coach. His job will be to hire managers who have a consistent philosophy, rather than jumping all over the map. And to help bring in players that fit that playing ideology over successive transfer windows. Not sure how he was going to influence the style of play, mid season, without control of recruitment, without knowing who the next permanent manager was.

Im interested to see where this all goes. The restructuring is certainly in line with what you’d want to see, and what most would want to do themselves if given the chance. I think that now he has recently ascended to having full (apparent) control of all football matters, we need to give him a couple of seasons to see the fruits of his strategic intent. Anything more short term than that is somewhat pointless IMO.
Stop making sensible, considered points. This place is for binary opinions and angry ranting only!

To add to that on Pt. 2 - imagine the criticism if Murtough HAD signed-off on a CF at the last minute, recommended by a temporary manager, and that CF had been either underwhelming on the pitch or not the right fit for the new manager.

It seems to me that refusing RR and waiting until Summer was the better long-term option
 

sparx99

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Murtough era so far:

Pros:
1) Appoint ETH
2) Sack the useless scouts

Cons:
1) Appointed wrong interim manager ill suited to the squad
2) Didn't back the manager in Jan window when there are obvious weakness in the squad
3) Threw away a season in Nov without much fight
4) Fail to implement a modern style of play

There are still many areas Man Utd need to improve such as medical, nutrition, fitness, phycology, youth and etc. We really need to catch up fast with Liverpool and City. We are a few years behind.
On your cons:
1. I wonder if appointing the ‘wrong’ manager has done us a long term favour. I don’t think it could have worked out better for those of us who have wanted a philosophical revolution. It’s highlighted the lack of worth ethic and the toxic elements to such a degree that it’s finally undeniable.

2. This one is somewhat frustrating as even with a shift to a different philosophy we could have brought in a player who was suited to the future style desired.

3. I hope this wasn’t the intent. I genuinely think we hoped Ralf would improve us. Ultimately I think it was too much a tactical shift to implement mid season.

4. Way too early to judge on this. Without any transfers and no summer to drill a tactical shift it’s too soon to see the outcomes. Clearly the summer window and pre-season is massive in this regard.
 

Ali Dia

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Pros: got Sancho for a fair bit less than we were quoted the year before. Has helped shake up things behind the scenes. Got Ralf who everybody agreed was a good signing and may be a catalyst for lasting change following some more short term pain. Seems to have improved the youth setup over the years. Got ETH. Mitchell seems like a really good addition if we get him. Finally shipping our squad players instead of protecting “value”

Cons: Sanchos reported wages are nuts. How much power does he actually really have? Stuck by Ole until the season was almost dead. Didn’t help Ralf out in the market in January when it was clear we were going to struggle to create. Basically as Slow as ever to fix major and obvious problems.
 

sugar_kane

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Not sure when we'd class the beginning of the Murtough era since Woodward has been involved until fairly recently.

With all the recent reshuffles and departures in the overall organisation it feels like maybe we're seeing Murtough put more of a stamp on things now (unless it's all Arnold's doing?)

By all accounts though he was heavily involved in picking Rangnick - I'd consider that a massive fumble, amateurish even, and I hope he learns from that experience quickly. Shades of a man out of his depth being dazzled by someone who talks a fantastic game, and from the briefings around Ten Hag it sounds like Murtough/Fletcher had a similar impression on the back of the interview process there as well (almost like Ten Hag was interviewing them rather than the other way around)

I hope he knows what he's doing, but Rangnick is a bad start. The reshuffles, in they're his doing however are promising.

Re: Sancho's wage - ridiculous, but that ones got Woody's fingerprints all over it surely?
 

led_scholes

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Pros: got Sancho for a fair bit less than we were quoted the year before. Has helped shake up things behind the scenes. Got Ralf who everybody agreed was a good signing and may be a catalyst for lasting change following some more short term pain. Seems to have improved the youth setup over the years. Got ETH. Mitchell seems like a really good addition if we get him. Finally shipping our squad players instead of protecting “value”

Cons: Sanchos reported wages are nuts. How much power does he actually really have? Stuck by Ole until the season was almost dead. Didn’t help Ralf out in the market in January when it was clear we were going to struggle to create. Basically as Slow as ever to fix major and obvious problems.
About the not signing anyone: I think Ralf said that the scouts couldn't suggest anyone and the board regrets it that we didn't sign anyone. So, after a few months with RR, they decided that the scouts were not up to the job. However, to replace the whole scouting department take months. Thus, I m not sure how are we deciding on what players we want to buy now. Are we going just by ETH's suggestions? If so, I hope he has stolen Ajaxs database.
 

Foxbatt

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About the not signing anyone: I think Ralf said that the scouts couldn't suggest anyone and the board regrets it that we didn't sign anyone. So, after a few months with RR, they decided that the scouts were not up to the job. However, to replace the whole scouting department take months. Thus, I m not sure how are we deciding on what players we want to buy now. Are we going just by ETH's suggestions? If so, I hope he has stolen Ajaxs database.
I am sure that he has given Ralf the job to air this in public. Lots of big organizations bring an outside consultant to do an audit. No manager ( interim or not) is going to be saying what Ralf is continuing to say without a go ahead from his boss. I think already 4 guys have left the club. This has never happened at United before. So a lot of credit has to be given to Murtough for trying to clean up this mess.
 

wolvored

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Regarding RR. Murtough can only see whats in front of him and halfway through a season, there wasnt a lot there. Would any of the others interviewed have done better. Everyone was hailing the decision at the time. RR cant turn a silk purse out ofca sows ear. Maybe the glazers had said were keeping the transfer budget for the new manager. Who knows? I dont and neither does anyone else on here.
All we can do is see where it goes from this summer onwards. He has his new manager who was the popular choice. He is revolutioning the football side completely. Lets give it a chance first and see where it goes.