The "lazy black player" stereotype

[chromepaxos]

If you are going to play the analogy game, you'll have to come up with a better one than that, but OK I'll play along.
"If that happens one time and you do nothing, you're a good person and I wouldn't describe you as being complicit" - this is completely morally wrong, you are literally advocating walking on by. If I witnessed the incident then I'd speak to the police to tell them what I saw. If I didn't then I would not describe myself as a good person at all. Anyway its a poor analogy and not relevant.

The point I'm trying to make is that whilst my belief is that racism is bad and should be eradicated wherever it is found, its not so important to me that I will proactively go out and spend my time and energy trying to alter things. I'm a white bloke btw, so obviously this doesn't have a big impact in my life (you may argue its had a positive effect due to white privilege) and I fully appreciate that the situation may well be different if I was black. If a situation arises where I feel obliged to do something (I see someone being abused in the street or I become aware of something at work etc) then I will step in, because its right there in my face and its the right thing to do.

I head the charity committee in my office and spend lots of my own time organising charitable activities and events for 250 colleagues. We do plenty of good things for various local charities and that is where I do my "proactively trying to make the world a better place" stuff. For me personally that is enough.

Am guessing obviously, but I'd say quite a large percentage of people fall into a similar category to me. As I said originally, there are way too many issues for everyone to be personally involved in all of them, you pick the ones that are most important to you. What are you doing to help eradicate homelessness for example? By your definition, you are complicit in perpetuating the situation because it is within your power to do something (let a homeless person share your house/flat) but you don't.

I don't think we are far apart on this, and I take all your points. Re the "if it happens one time..." thing, of course you're right, I was just trying to keep the thought experiment simple. And re your example of homelessness, again my qualifier is that to be complicit, you need to participate, i.e. benefit. I'm not sure if anyone benefits from homelessness.

So, you're right that we can't do everything all the time to make everything right. But not everything is built into society the way that racism and historically racist policies are. Black people as a community have suffered from housing/job/incarceration/drug policy inequities for a hundred years and more, and the opportunities and wealth denied to them were appropriated largely by the white community (I'm a white guy and it makes me uncomfortable to write this, but it is the truth of our history). Look at the figures for household wealth that compare the black community and the white community - the difference, in both the UK and the US, is startling. Unless someone wants to go down some IQ/race-based science black hole to explain these differences, I'm not sure what else does other than...long-term, structural racism.

As white guy then, living in those societies, I've profited off those policies my whole life. Did I choose to? Did I make a decision against black folk? Did I conspire with anyone? No. But have I participated in the society that maintained those systems? That kept locking up black kids for dealing marijuana even as it is now being legalized across America because white people want to take it for their aches and pains? Yes, I have.

Here's the thing. Accepting that we are complicit doesn't mean we are evil, or even bad. And it especially doesn't mean, to address a particularly silly comment from @Bola, that simply being aware of it means we are beating ourselves up over it. It just means we should feel obligated to do...something. Voting for the right politician, challenging the racist a-hole in the pub, making an argument on a football forum...you know, something. And, don't be the person that claims they don't see colour while criticizing everyone trying to actually do something.

Again, why is it so hard for us to just accept that we benefited from screwing over a bunch of people for a long time and so we have a responsibility to try and do something about it?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Guardian has a piece about this today, which makes a (good) point I don’t think I’ve read in this thread.

And anyone doubting something undesirable is going on in regards to how Pogba is covered should consider the fact that, size‑wise, he isn’t particularly big for a modern midfielder; 6ft 3in and 84kg, almost identical to André Gomes (6ft 2in and 84kg), and yet the coverage around the latter’s generally positive impact at Everton has been less about his physicality and more about his craft.

Wasn’t Zidane a bit of a unit too? Anyone know his height/weight when he was in his prime?

 

[Trizy]

Guardian has a piece about this today, which makes a (good) point I don’t think I’ve read in this thread.



Wasn’t Zidane a bit of a unit too? Anyone know his height/weight when he was in his prime?

In the case of Pogba, he has unbelievable strength when holding up the ball. Some times he holds on to it too often just to showcase his strength, he genuinely looks like he loves it. Hardly a racist remark but more of a observation.

Now if you described Pogba as just a power house you may have a case. Given how technically gifted he is and one of the world's finest passers of the ball.

 

[Sky1981]

Strange.

If any i had the views that black people are born stronger and more athletic and sports seems to be their strong point compared to most of the world bar some particular extreme places

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

In the case of Pogba, he has unbelievable strength when holding up the ball. Some times he holds on to it too often just to showcase his strength, he genuinely looks like he loves it. Hardly a racist remark but more of a observation.

Now if you described Pogba as just a power house you may have a case. Given how technically gifted he is and one of the world's finest passers of the ball.

I really don’t see anyone else like Pogba, and his ability to protect the ball. It’s technique, power, skill and confidence that enables him to play in the way he does.

 

[Welby5]

. Look at the figures for household wealth that compare the black community and the white community - the difference, in both the UK and the US, is startling. Unless someone wants to go down some IQ/race-based science black hole to explain these differences, I'm not sure what else does other than...long-term, structural racism.

There's US students race base studies which show that Black students who come from famlies with an income of 120,000 dollars a year still do worse than White students who came from families on 60,000 a year. There's overwhelming stats/evidence which point to black people on average have a lower IQ than White or Asian people. The races with highest average IQ is not Europeans, its actually the people's from Sout East asia. To be honeest i dont think this kind of thing should be such a taboo subject. Only far right Neo Nazis would try and make a big deal out of it.

 

[KingMinger22]

The first time I’ve ever heard that this is a “stereotype”.

 

[Adisa]

Damn.

 

[Carolina Red]

There's US students race base studies which show that Black students who come from famlies with an income of 120,000 dollars a year still do worse than White students who came from families on 60,000 a year.

Go on. Cite it.

 

[Abizzz]

Go on. Cite it.

I'm usually not one to advocate censorship but if anything that post belongs in the racism thread (In my opinion as an example of it). Given that he's making outrages claims without any sources and is a new member, just delete it?

This thread was about one specific stereotype that many of us see as a problem, not about the alleged average intelligence of huge groups of people.

Edit: Never mind, I must have mistaken this thread for another from a while back that I had posted in. Still think that one would be better deleted but the thread had moved on considerably.

 

[2mufc0]

There's US students race base studies which show that Black students who come from famlies with an income of 120,000 dollars a year still do worse than White students who came from families on 60,000 a year. There's overwhelming stats/evidence which point to black people on average have a lower IQ than White or Asian people. The races with highest average IQ is not Europeans, its actually the people's from Sout East asia. To be honeest i dont think this kind of thing should be such a taboo subject. Only far right Neo Nazis would try and make a big deal out of it.

Supports: Chelsea

 

[soaphroniscuss]

The first time I’ve ever heard that this is a “stereotype”.

Atkinson resigned from ITV on 21 April 2004, after he broadcast a racial remark live on air about the black Chelsea player Marcel Desailly; believing the microphone to be switched off, he said, "...he [Desailly] is what is known in some schools as a fecking lazy, thick n-word".[16] Although transmission in the UK had finished, the microphone gaffe meant that his comment was broadcast to various countries in the Middle East. He also left his job as a columnist for The Guardian "by mutual agreement" as a result of the comment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Atkinson#Racism_controversy

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

In the case of Pogba, he has unbelievable strength when holding up the ball. Some times he holds on to it too often just to showcase his strength, he genuinely looks like he loves it. Hardly a racist remark but more of a observation.

Now if you described Pogba as just a power house you may have a case. Given how technically gifted he is and one of the world's finest passers of the ball.

Which is rarely brought up.Same with Toure and Viera.
All we hear from pundits and commentators are the praise for their physical attributes.They completely avoid the fact that Pogba ,and Toure and Viera before him,is one of the most technically gifted players of his generation.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

There's US students race base studies which show that Black students who come from famlies with an income of 120,000 dollars a year still do worse than White students who came from families on 60,000 a year. There's overwhelming stats/evidence which point to black people on average have a lower IQ than White or Asian people. The races with highest average IQ is not Europeans, its actually the people's from Sout East asia. To be honeest i dont think this kind of thing should be such a taboo subject. Only far right Neo Nazis would try and make a big deal out of it.

Depends who conducted the studies,what criteria they used etc.

It can all be manipulated to suit an agenda

 

[JPRouve]

Which is rarely brought up.Same with Toure and Viera.
All we hear from pundits and commentators are the praise for their physical attributes.They completely avoid the fact that Pogba ,and Toure and Viera before him,is one of the most technically gifted players of his generation.

In the case of Vieira it's understandable and comparable to Keane, they both had a mean streak and loved to get physical despite the fact that what made them special was their intelligence and technique.

 

[afrocentricity]

How did I miss this shit show of a thread? Ironically threads like this showcase the issues/views that some cnuts pretend don't exist....

Props to the posters who put their time in though. Those pesky SJWs

 

[MAME DIOUF 32]

Depends who conducted the studies,what criteria they used etc.

It can all be manipulated to suit an agenda

And also depends on how IQ is defined. If different parts of the world are delivering different results, isn't it likely that some cultural factors are sneaking into what purports to be an objective measurement?

 

[noodlehair]

Guardian has a piece about this today, which makes a (good) point I don’t think I’ve read in this thread.



Wasn’t Zidane a bit of a unit too? Anyone know his height/weight when he was in his prime?

Do the media actually go on about Pogba's physicality a lot though?

I mean, firstly, I think it's valid to state it as an asset of his, as he does tend to out muscle players, hold them off etc. but he's generally recognised as being extremely skillful and talented technically as well. I've seen articles comparing him to Paul Scholes, and chief Pogba hater Graeme Souness claims that Pogba "thinks he's Pirlo" which hardly suggests he sees him as just a physical athlete.

I don't know where I stand on this because I think it is an issue but people always seem to struggle to really pick out valid examples. It's hard to compare the coverage Pogba gets to a non black player because there aren't really any other players like Pogba. ROnaldo was similar in some ways, but got all the same criticism and perceptions that Pogba has, despite being a better player. The other one who always crops up is Sterling, but then he's always whining about things, cheats a lot, was rubbish for England for about 4 years running yet kept getting picked, is hated by Liverpool fans, etc. so a lot of the negative stuff with him comes from that, and then I look at Rooney and think well he got all of the criticism both Pogba and Sterling get, and a whole ton more besides. Where as you have Rashford who is black and generally only ever portrayed extremely positively, due to the fact he works hard and is very talented.

I just don't think it's as bad as people make out. Particularly once you discount the obvious scumbag media (i.e. The Daily Mail).

 

[ivaldo]

Supports: Chelsea

Though I agree his post was horseshit there's a certain level of irony in this.

 

[2mufc0]

Though I agree his post was horseshit there's a certain level of irony in this.

Agree, but it wasn't meant to be a serious response, imo one of the most outrageous posts I've seen on here, which is saying a lot.

 

[soaphroniscuss]

There's US students race base studies which show that Black students who come from famlies with an income of 120,000 dollars a year still do worse than White students who came from families on 60,000 a year. There's overwhelming stats/evidence which point to black people on average have a lower IQ than White or Asian people. The races with highest average IQ is not Europeans, its actually the people's from Sout East asia. To be honeest i dont think this kind of thing should be such a taboo subject. Only far right Neo Nazis would try and make a big deal out of it.

But Sierra Leone (Africa) has an average IQ higher than much of Eastern Europe (Slavic).

Not to mention that within those same studies the "non-genetic determined proportion of IQ" (reported by some at 15%) bridges the gap you refer to no?

 

[ivaldo]

Agree, but it wasn't meant to be a serious response, imo one of the most outrageous posts I've seen on here, which is saying a lot.

Ah I see. Yeah you're right.

 

[finneh]

I don't know where I stand on this because I think it is an issue but people always seem to struggle to really pick out valid examples. It's hard to compare the coverage Pogba gets to a non black player because there aren't really any other players like Pogba. ROnaldo was similar in some ways, but got all the same criticism and perceptions that Pogba has, despite being a better player. The other one who always crops up is Sterling, but then he's always whining about things, cheats a lot, was rubbish for England for about 4 years running yet kept getting picked, is hated by Liverpool fans, etc. so a lot of the negative stuff with him comes from that, and then I look at Rooney and think well he got all of the criticism both Pogba and Sterling get, and a whole ton more besides. Where as you have Rashford who is black and generally only ever portrayed extremely positively, due to the fact he works hard and is very talented.

This is where I struggle. Whether it be the "strong", the "lazy" or any general negative press there is always a far more simple and likely explanation that doesn't include racial bias that often does not get highlighted.

Personally I thinks it's dangerous for people like Sterling to conflate or confuse the causes for his own negative press. Too often I've seen young black men lose positive career opportunities simply because they feel there is no chance of them bettering themselves due to their race; so why would they try.

Racism of course is an issue but role models like Sterling need to apply critical thinking before perpetuating racial tensions and further corrupting an already despondent group of people. He should be using his success as a positive case study highlighting that by working hard you can achieve great success irrespective of race.

 

[Cassidy]

This is where I struggle. Whether it be the "strong", the "lazy" or any general negative press there is always a far more simple and likely explanation that doesn't include racial bias that often does not get highlighted.

Personally I thinks it's dangerous for people like Sterling to conflate or confuse the causes for his own negative press. Too often I've seen young black men lose positive career opportunities simply because they feel there is no chance of them bettering themselves due to their race; so why would they try.

Racism of course is an issue but role models like Sterling need to apply critical thinking before perpetuating racial tensions and further corrupting an already despondent group of people. He should be using his success as a positive case study highlighting that by working hard you can achieve great success irrespective of race.

He does

He should also call out the rubbish that he been happening to him as well, otherwise it wouldn't stop (for him or others)

 

[finneh]

He does

He should also call out the rubbish that he been happening to him as well, otherwise it wouldn't stop (for him or others)

He can absolutely call out the press if he feels they're miscatergorising him as a greedy, ostentatious, self-involed, bad role model.

However spouting "racism" without evidence or the application of any critical thought is dangerous.

 

[Cassidy]

He can absolutely call out the press if he feels they're miscatergorising him as a greedy, ostentatious, self-involed, bad role model.

However spouting "racism" without evidence or the application of any critical thought is dangerous.

This is your assumption

He gave the example of how two young City players were being covered by the press, the only real difference between them being their race....

I think its a bit weird how people think it is dangerous to highlight pretty obvious bias reporting that is happening (not only to him)

What is dangerous is nobody highlighting it and allowing it to continue

 

[noodlehair]

This is where I struggle. Whether it be the "strong", the "lazy" or any general negative press there is always a far more simple and likely explanation that doesn't include racial bias that often does not get highlighted.

Personally I thinks it's dangerous for people like Sterling to conflate or confuse the causes for his own negative press. Too often I've seen young black men lose positive career opportunities simply because they feel there is no chance of them bettering themselves due to their race; so why would they try.

Racism of course is an issue but role models like Sterling need to apply critical thinking before perpetuating racial tensions and further corrupting an already despondent group of people. He should be using his success as a positive case study highlighting that by working hard you can achieve great success irrespective of race.

Yeah this is kind of my point. I mean I think it is a problem in football, but I also think things have changed a lot for the better and will continue to do so. I think in 10-20 years time you'll have more black managers, coaching staff, media representatives, etc. and things will naturally change.

What I don't think is that at the moment black players have their opportunities limited or are hunted down by some kind of media lynch mob.

There was the recent thing where Sterling got abuse from the Chelsea fans. Obviously wrong and was highlighted as so. THen all of a sudden him and others are attacking the media again for their "coverage" of him. The only coverage was that condeming the Chelsea fans, and all that was achieved was distracting from that by trying to blame it on the press.

Part of the problem you have when it comes to the paper press is most of them are English posh boys with their English posh boy upbringing. It's not that they are racist or classist so much as they just don't understand how to associate with a normal working class backround footballer, whatever their skin colour, and what people fail to acknowledge when accusing them of biased or blinkered coverage of black players, is that they spout and print absolute nonsense about absolutely everything.A lot of the stuff that appears in the press is little better than your average drunken post on here. Sometimes it manages to be significantly more clueless.

I think if you're a young white footballer, and you work hard, and stay out of trouble, and don't act like a prat, you will only be perceived positively. Where as if tyou don't do these things you invite snearing criticism, which you just have to deal with. I really don't think it's that different if you're a black footballer. There are countless black players in England who aren't perceived negatively at all...it's the racisit idiots in the crowd or who turn up outside the training ground to start abusing black players who are the problem.

The thing with Sterling and his tattoo really did annoy me a bit. He posts a picture of himself pointing at a tattoo of a gun he has, then suddenly the press are racist because some people criticised Sterling for showing off a tattoo of a gun. THere was some kind of mass outrage over it. I mean, I don't care about his tattoo, but if you invite opinions on something you are going to get them, regardless of what colour your skin is, what your backround is. If you can't deal with it don't invite it on yourself.

 

[Beagle]

I thought the stereotype was the other way round. Big, black and strong as opposed to lazy.

 

[finneh]

Yeah this is kind of my point. I mean I think it is a problem in football, but I also think things have changed a lot for the better and will continue to do so. I think in 10-20 years time you'll have more black managers, coaching staff, media representatives, etc. and things will naturally change.

What I don't think is that at the moment black players have their opportunities limited or are hunted down by some kind of media lynch mob.

There was the recent thing where Sterling got abuse from the Chelsea fans. Obviously wrong and was highlighted as so. THen all of a sudden him and others are attacking the media again for their "coverage" of him. The only coverage was that condeming the Chelsea fans, and all that was achieved was distracting from that by trying to blame it on the press.

Part of the problem you have when it comes to the paper press is most of them are English posh boys with their English posh boy upbringing. It's not that they are racist or classist so much as they just don't understand how to associate with a normal working class backround footballer, whatever their skin colour, and what people fail to acknowledge when accusing them of biased or blinkered coverage of black players, is that they spout and print absolute nonsense about absolutely everything.A lot of the stuff that appears in the press is little better than your average drunken post on here. Sometimes it manages to be significantly more clueless.

I think if you're a young white footballer, and you work hard, and stay out of trouble, and don't act like a prat, you will only be perceived positively. Where as if tyou don't do these things you invite snearing criticism, which you just have to deal with. I really don't think it's that different if you're a black footballer. There are countless black players in England who aren't perceived negatively at all...it's the racisit idiots in the crowd or who turn up outside the training ground to start abusing black players who are the problem.

The thing with Sterling and his tattoo really did annoy me a bit. He posts a picture of himself pointing at a tattoo of a gun he has, then suddenly the press are racist because some people criticised Sterling for showing off a tattoo of a gun. THere was some kind of mass outrage over it. I mean, I don't care about his tattoo, but if you invite opinions on something you are going to get them, regardless of what colour your skin is, what your backround is. If you can't deal with it don't invite it on yourself.

Agree with all or that.

 

[finneh]

This is your assumption

He gave the example of how two young City players were being covered by the press, the only real difference between them being their race....

I think its a bit weird how people think it is dangerous to highlight pretty obvious bias reporting that is happening (not only to him)

What is dangerous is nobody highlighting it and allowing it to continue

That absolutely was not the only difference, as has been highlighted before in the thread (by myself and others).

 

[pierrethesnack]

There's US students race base studies which show that Black students who come from famlies with an income of 120,000 dollars a year still do worse than White students who came from families on 60,000 a year. There's overwhelming stats/evidence which point to black people on average have a lower IQ than White or Asian people. The races with highest average IQ is not Europeans, its actually the people's from Sout East asia. To be honeest i dont think this kind of thing should be such a taboo subject. Only far right Neo Nazis would try and make a big deal out of it.

What nonsense. The people responsible for those studies clearly say that the difference in mean IQ in difference "races" is so marginal that it makes absolutely no sense as an explanation on a societal or cultural level, even less on the individual level.

 

[Bobski]

Zidane was a unit. One of the reasons many(including myself) were so enamoured with his style of play was in him playing against stereotypes. Big guy, large frame, carrying a lot of mass, but was so graceful and light on his feet, absurdly coordinated. Everyone gets stereotyped in sports to some degree, some to a more suspicious level than others, "great touch for a big guy" the quick winger who would be "dangerous if he had a brain".

Tricky area with a great deal of nuance.

 

[pierrethesnack]

Zidane was a unit. One of the reasons many(including myself) were so enamoured with his style of play was in him playing against stereotypes. Big guy, large frame, carrying a lot of mass, but was so graceful and light on his feet, absurdly coordinated. Everyone gets stereotyped in sports to some degree, some to a more suspicious level than others, "great touch for a big guy" the quick winger who would be "dangerous if he had a brain".

Tricky area with a great deal of nuance.

Agree, it was the apparent contradiction between him looking like he did and still somehow gliding out of difficult situations with a sense of inevitability, just magical to watch.

 

[Bola]

I think if you're a young white footballer, and you work hard, and stay out of trouble, and don't act like a prat, you will only be perceived positively.

The stats could suggest otherwise.

I recall seeing a recent census/ survey by an anti-discrimination body whose figures showed that males of a 'white' background are underepresented compared to their make up of the general population**

I dont like to go off stats alone, but in the same line of thought as 'institutional racism' *, is there a wider issues that 'white' UK are being stereotyped negatively and this is a key factor for their 'under representation'?


* from my experience of claims of institutional racism, the demographic stats are usually rolled out and the 'under representation" is highlighted

** though org didn't highlight this as I recall

 

[Cassidy]

That absolutely was not the only difference, as has been highlighted before in the thread (by myself and others).

In relation to what was being reported and the words used? No? There was more to it?

I’ve seen your post and again, you should check facts first.

Foden bought the house for himself and his family (as the text of the reports says) he lives there with his Dad and Mum.

Guess who lives in the house with Adarabioyo? Oh wait. So why are these two things reported differently when they both did the same thing? Buy a house for themselves and their families to live in.

Just because the words used in the report were different doesnt mean that there were any different in the facts and actions. They both did the same thing, they were reported as being different.

 

[noodlehair]

The stats could suggest otherwise.

I recall seeing a recent census/ survey by an anti-discrimination body whose figures showed that males of a 'white' background are underepresented compared to their make up of the general population**

I dont like to go off stats alone, but in the same line of thought as 'institutional racism' *, is there a wider issues that 'white' UK are being stereotyped negatively and this is a key factor for their 'under representation'?


* from my experience of claims of institutional racism, the demographic stats are usually rolled out and the 'under representation" is highlighted

** though org didn't highlight this as I recall

Yeah I don't know about that. I think there would need to be more substantial evidence before we could really start considering this seriously.

There are a lot more young black players than there have been previously, at least that's the feeling I get when I watch football, but I don't see loads of good young white footballers not getting a chance due to this, or get any feeling or signs that teams are under pressure to recruit/promote black players ahead of white ones. I just presumed it was part of natural cultural change and the type of young players coming through, which is why I think in time the under-representation of black managers/coaching staff etc. will start to naturally disappear.

I also think clubs appointing useless buffoons as managers just because they are ex players will gradually disappear anyway, as it becomes more and more apparent that it's actually quite a bad idea to do this.

 

[Red Royal]

I know Lukaku gets a lot of stick for his first touch from the Vaf
However IMHO what an intelligent player he is. He would have trained all week expecting to be a front two and then when injuries occured vs Liverpool did whatever was needed from him. He really puts un a shift and understands the game situation giving his aĺl. Would be great if half the Caf could get kf his back and appreciate the work he puts in to the team. Well done Rom!

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I know Lukaku gets a lot of stick for his first touch from the Vaf
However IMHO what an intelligent player he is. He would have trained all week expecting to be a front two and then when injuries occured vs Liverpool did whatever was needed from him. He really puts un a shift and understands the game situation giving his aĺl. Would be great if half the Caf could get kf his back and appreciate the work he puts in to the team. Well done Rom!

Errrrrrrm. Think you’re in the wrong thread?

Or at least I hope so.

 

[duffer]

Errrrrrrm. Think you’re in the wrong thread?

Or at least I hope so.

Indeed.

Logs into Redcafe wanting to talk about Lukaku. "What thread should go to?"

 

[Nucks]

I think the whole "the player is a physical specimen" thing is an over reaction.

When you see a player take on 3 people, hold them off, and control the ball, what is your reaction going to be? Oh look how silky smooth his technique is? Or is it, he just trucked 3 guys, because he's a monster". It's the latter, almost 100% of the time. The skills are self evident if you can do that, and there are plenty of people who have the technical skills to hold up a ball, there are not many players who have that technical aspect AND the size and strength to stiff arm one guy, body another, and nutmeg a third and then come out the other side of all that with the ball.

Did people call racism when people talked about Vidic or Stam as absolute units who physically imposed themselves on the game? No, because at the end of the day, it's all praise.