And, as always, the idiots are out in full force in the replies.
The mask debate
- Thread starter golden_blunder
- Start date
Went to my local corner shop for a loaf of bread earlier. I was the only person in there who wore a mask, and all the other people just carried on as though everything was normal and looked at me like I was an idiot for wearing one. Walked past the local charity shop on the way back and nobody in there was wearing one either.
Should have been celebrating a friend's 40th birthday this weekend, but this part of Greater Manchester is still under extra measures, doubtless due to the lazy idiots that live here. Getting pretty sick of feeling like one of a minority who give a shit.
Should have been celebrating a friend's 40th birthday this weekend, but this part of Greater Manchester is still under extra measures, doubtless due to the lazy idiots that live here. Getting pretty sick of feeling like one of a minority who give a shit.
So strange to hear that. In Ireland I honestly have not seen a single person in any shop not wearing a mask since it became mandatory. Was patchy before then but 100% ever since. Or is it not yet mandatory over there?
I'd assume the key benefit is limiting the spread to others through coughing and sneezing. Not that infection through contact probably isn't important I assume - just less important. I wonder if we have any data about infection through touch/contact?
It isn't compulsory here in NSW and mask wearing seems to run between 20% and 50%. Even though we only have a few cases per day I'd like to see it higher.
Wow. It is going to be great flying Westjet in the future, though.
True. Until they release their personal boycott is hurting them, then they’ll rationalize flying with them again.
Edit; I didn’t realize you had those idiots up there too. I thought they were all down in the US.
Edit; I didn’t realize you had those idiots up there too. I thought they were all down in the US.
@Wibble @Pogue Mahone @Arruda et al.
In roughly around 3 weeks, I am planning to get an intercontinental flight (from San Francisco to Europe). It will likely take forever, with all the stops in between, so probably I will be for around 24 hours from home to home. I was thinking what mask should I use for this occasion, cause to me it seems that a simple surgery mask might not do it (especially with the lack of social distancing in the US airports). So I have a few questions that you might be able to answer:
1) Is N95 mask okay for this, or there is something that offers even more protection?
2) Is N95 comfortable to keep it for many hours (for example, I had no trouble keeping surgery mask for a few hours and likely can keep it much longer)?
3) Should I change the mask every few hours?
Thanks in advance!
In roughly around 3 weeks, I am planning to get an intercontinental flight (from San Francisco to Europe). It will likely take forever, with all the stops in between, so probably I will be for around 24 hours from home to home. I was thinking what mask should I use for this occasion, cause to me it seems that a simple surgery mask might not do it (especially with the lack of social distancing in the US airports). So I have a few questions that you might be able to answer:
1) Is N95 mask okay for this, or there is something that offers even more protection?
2) Is N95 comfortable to keep it for many hours (for example, I had no trouble keeping surgery mask for a few hours and likely can keep it much longer)?
3) Should I change the mask every few hours?
Thanks in advance!
I don't know for sure but I'm thinking that a basic disposable one will be light weight and comfortable enough especially as not spreading infection to others through coughing or sneezing is that main benefit. The airflow and filtration on a plane provides quite a bit of protection as well.
Some airlines have even banned industrial N95 type masks - basically anything with valves
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ranago...s-now-banned-from-delta-flights/#38222dba1ef8
My offspring is off to Croatia early next week and he is wearing normal disposable ones I think.
Thanks for the info. I actually didn't know that N95 does not help on not spreading the virus, simply thought that it is a better mask, so it makes perfect sense that they are banned.
So, I guess I am just taking with me a few normal surgery masks, and replacing them every few hours.
As a side note, how he is able to go to Croatia? I thought that EU has rules that does not allow people who do not have an EU passport or EU residence to go there.
Apparently not. To transit in Germany he needs proof that he is going to Croatia and a Covid test and to be let in to Croatia he needs a Covid test within 48 hours of landing.
Oh, this is quite interesting. Does his insurance cover the COVID test, cause getting one without having any symptoms is a bit of a nightmare? And most importantly, how is he able to get the results within 2 days of leaving considering that in the US the results take forever?
Asking these questions cause I might need to do similarly.
He had to pay for his Covid test - just over US$200 and we found an express place in LA - 12-24 hr turnaround. Are you flying out of SF or LAX?
From San Francisco. I need to check if I can find something, wouldn't mind paying 200USD just to not get any bad surprise when I am not able to enter the airplane.
Thanks for the info!
The place we found doesn't have SF branches but there must be places around.
https://www.myconciergemd.com/
This might help https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2020/map-coronavirus-testing-near-me/
Thanks, I bookmarked these two pages and will check them. To be fair, I don't think it is even required for me (I have address in Italy, and a new working visa for Germany) but the rules can change at very short notice and I don't want to stay in the US a day longer than I have to.
Get a valveless FFP2 or FFP3. Use the surgical masks during transit, and keep discarding them on a regular basis. Use the FFP for the actual flight part as that's when you'll need it the most.
No, it's mandatory, it's just not enforced. Too many people can't be arsed/too entitled/saw a meme/don't believe it's real.
That’s shit. Must be depressing to see such obvious evidence of people being selfish twats.
Although, I’m not convinced masks in shops make a huge difference anyway. Our recently increased diligence with masks in Ireland hasn’t made any difference to our numbers. Which makes sense. I reckon only an absolutely tiny number of cases (if any?) have been down to the virus being passed on in a shop. Gatherings in peoples homes/workplaces/gyms/bars etc are much much more high risk than popping out to get groceries.
Yeah, i agree. It's more that I see it as a sign of understanding that we need to act together to tackle this thing and do what is necessary. Seeing so many people just acting as if the rules don't apply to them gives me the same feelings as when I see someone parking on the double yellows outside the school gates or littering. Like the people doing it think their convenience is more important than anything or anybody else.
Exactly. If they can’t even be arsed wearing a mask to the shops that speaks volumes about how much effort they’re making to adhere to guidelines when they’re not in that shop.
I wore the simple surgical mask when flying from SFO to Singapore. After more than 10hrs, I felt a bit dizzy. Probably CO2 build up. So be careful if you want to wear a higher rated mask. Do bring extra mask to change too
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So glad I'm not involved in retail anymore. Having to deal with ignorant cnuts on a daily basis was very tiresome.
Everyone who wears a mask is a servant of Satan.
What a load of nonsense. Just don't wear a mask and get on with it. It's not so bad.
One can wonder how much protection a surgical mask offers when trapped for hours in a metal tube with 300 passengers, packed like sardines, breathing each other's recycled air. Everybody is taking their masks off for food and drinks anyway. The mask simply gives an illusion of safety in this situation, the only thing truly protecting people from each other is their immune system. When you smell each other's farts, you are also breathing in each other's germs. If you are worried about your health on planes, I would advise to not travel at all.
To illustrate my point:
With regards to N95. I have tried. These might be ok on short flights, but long distance they become unbearable, the drop in air quality behind the mask is astronomical, causing feelings of claustrophobia and making people lift off their masks occasionally to get a bit of extra oxygen in. They do more harm than good. Sending your kid to school with an N95 mask is downright irresponsible parenting.
I did see a woman in Marks and Spencers today not wearing on which is near enough the only person I've seen without a mask in any store or shop .
It really stand out not wearing one and rightly so in my opinion
Yes, but look at how limited the spread of that vape is from the surgical mask. You'll note that he doesn't do one without a mask because that would shit all over his agenda.
I mean, I was talking about all the people saying they'll never fly with them ever again, and how they're going to sue. But ok.
This, too.
Absolutely, but sitting next to someone for a few hours all but guarantees you will breathe in his germs, with our without mask. It's better, but not by much. It deflects more air to the sides than no mask. Guess what? That's where other people are sitting. At this moment, I would not advise people belonging to a risk group to fly under any circumstances if they are afraid of catching the virus.
I have been on a few flights since March. Protection is an illusion. If this was something more lethal than C19, I would under no circumstances board a plane.
It’s incredible how often people misunderstand basic shit about this whole mask issue. The primary purpose of a mask is to block the droplets of spittle we spray out of our mouths when we talk. That’s what they were designed to do. Surgeons don’t wear those masks because they’re worried about catching the fecking flu while they’re taking out an appendix ffs.
These droplets fall down and contaminate surfaces which other people then touch. By wearing a mask we protect those other people. Blowing a vape out the side of a surgical mask looks fun but tells us feck all useful, other than confirming how effective they are at their primary purpose. Newsflash. None of us can spit around corners.
Wearing masks is not a guarantee way of protection. It dosen't guarantee that you won't spread covid. Wearing one however, does minimise the risk of spreading it to others.
As a nurse, have now lost count of how many families I have had to call in the middle of the night to offer my condolenses and explain that it is unsafe for them to come see their loved ones for one last time before I have to perform last offices and send them to the morgue. My worst night shift was 5 deaths. What was a 12.5 hour shift turned into a 14.5 shift due to all the paperwork and phone calls i had to make, covid is terrible and unpredictable, esepcailly for the elderly.
I can fully understand how some people are completely non-compliant because they simply have not experienced the brutality of this virus at it's peak. I have friends who are completely blasé about it and think its a conspiracy and what not.
I can kind of empthazie with that, you don't know what you don't know but as human beings, I wish people would just put aside their agenda's - policitical, conspiracy, fear of control....whatever it is and just be kind and respectful of other people for a change. Wear a mask and preferebaly don't go abroad for a holiday.
As a nurse, have now lost count of how many families I have had to call in the middle of the night to offer my condolenses and explain that it is unsafe for them to come see their loved ones for one last time before I have to perform last offices and send them to the morgue. My worst night shift was 5 deaths. What was a 12.5 hour shift turned into a 14.5 shift due to all the paperwork and phone calls i had to make, covid is terrible and unpredictable, esepcailly for the elderly.
I can fully understand how some people are completely non-compliant because they simply have not experienced the brutality of this virus at it's peak. I have friends who are completely blasé about it and think its a conspiracy and what not.
I can kind of empthazie with that, you don't know what you don't know but as human beings, I wish people would just put aside their agenda's - policitical, conspiracy, fear of control....whatever it is and just be kind and respectful of other people for a change. Wear a mask and preferebaly don't go abroad for a holiday.
Thank you for sharing this. Empathy is a much needed quality, I feel it’s missing in our public discourse just as much. May I ask what the current situation is like in your hospital? Still full on or have things calmed down?
Agreed.
As for the corners bit you can if the wind is fast enough and from the right direction
Yes you're right, just wished there was more understanding amongst us all. My hospital trust is down in the South East and cases have been very low for the last 3-4 weeks. I've been working on a covid respiratory ward for the last 6 months but the ward has gone back to being a green 'clean' ward now. Our whole hospital only has two wards which are red 'covid' wards. At it's peak we had 8 red wards so things have improved vastly. The majority of covid cases belonged to care/residential and nursing homes. The community doctors did everything they could to keep the elderly patients away from the hospital as there would not have been enough beds and ventilators to go around. Not sure what the ethical implications are for this practice but thats another debate for another day - certainly for when a public enquiry is opened regarding how the government has handled the pandemic.
As @Wibble has pointed out, @Lj82 You won't build up and retain CO2 by wearing a surgical mask. However, wearing a mask on a plane is also very different as the oxygen levels are reduced in the air you breathe in. It can make you feel dizzy or lightheaded on a plane whilst wearing a mask becuase of this. You would only build up CO2 if you have abnormal breathing or hyperventilate really. If you persist with feeling dizzy or unwell whilst wearing a surgical mask at any other time then I would recommend you being assessed by your Doctor/GP just in-case you have an underlying respiratory or neurological condition as a precaution.
@Libano
What it shows is that a good proportion of the droplets remain suspended in the air.
The reason masks are still likely to be effective is that I am guessing if you look at the size distribution of the droplets from a sample of "spittle", you probably have a greater number of smaller droplets than larger droplets. The larger droplets have a greater volume and therefore, despite being smaller in number, contribute to the majority of the volume of the total liquid (spit) compared to all the smaller droplets combined. Therefore if you can stop the spread of the larger droplets, then you reduce significantly the total volume of "spittle" released into the air. This assumes that a greater volume of spittle corresponds to a higher amount of viral load.
The short answer of a long story is that the masks are more effective at stopping the spread of larger droplets and/or very fast moving droplets.
It is true that in confined places and with regular leakage from the masks from multiple people, you would still release a non-negligible amount of smaller droplets into the air. We should not be so dismissive of this. According to one paper I looked at, even if their liquid evaporates, they contain a solid particulate content - so the remaining particles will remain suspended in the air for a significant period of time.
However, many airports are doing checks - so many people who display symptoms will not be allowed to travel. There are also two further points with respect to aircraft. First, I believe many aircraft use filtration systems. Secondly, I believe the air inside the aircraft is also mixed with fresh air as well. The combination of all these, as well as wearing masks, will reduce further the risk.
What it shows is that a good proportion of the droplets remain suspended in the air.
The reason masks are still likely to be effective is that I am guessing if you look at the size distribution of the droplets from a sample of "spittle", you probably have a greater number of smaller droplets than larger droplets. The larger droplets have a greater volume and therefore, despite being smaller in number, contribute to the majority of the volume of the total liquid (spit) compared to all the smaller droplets combined. Therefore if you can stop the spread of the larger droplets, then you reduce significantly the total volume of "spittle" released into the air. This assumes that a greater volume of spittle corresponds to a higher amount of viral load.
The short answer of a long story is that the masks are more effective at stopping the spread of larger droplets and/or very fast moving droplets.
It is true that in confined places and with regular leakage from the masks from multiple people, you would still release a non-negligible amount of smaller droplets into the air. We should not be so dismissive of this. According to one paper I looked at, even if their liquid evaporates, they contain a solid particulate content - so the remaining particles will remain suspended in the air for a significant period of time.
However, many airports are doing checks - so many people who display symptoms will not be allowed to travel. There are also two further points with respect to aircraft. First, I believe many aircraft use filtration systems. Secondly, I believe the air inside the aircraft is also mixed with fresh air as well. The combination of all these, as well as wearing masks, will reduce further the risk.
One interesting thing about the way surgical masks vent out the sides is sneeze etiquette. When I was a baby doc wearing them in theatre we were warned that if we coughed or sneezed we should stay facing towards the patient being operated on. The natural instinct is to turn your face away but that’s the wrong thing to do. Obviously we couldn’t touch our face with our hands but maybe burying your face in your elbow helps here? Feck knows.
I don't think that would make much difference but I may be wrong. The energy you impart on the droplets when you sneeze or cough - most of them will not have a tendency to move with the air flow which leaks out via the sides. There must exist some research papers which have looked into this, it does not seem like a particularly challenging thing to study.