The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?

Oly Francis

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Does anyone think Neymar would have become a more rounded player (and mentally stronger) if he had moved to PL rather than PSG?
Neymar is already a very rounded player, and he scored the only goal for his team playing with an injury in a crucial game yesterday, i'm not sure it shows mental weakness.

But maybe he'd have been better, or maybe he'd have his ankled shattered after 3 weeks in the PL, there's no way to know. Neymar's main issue were his injuries.
 

mu4c_20le

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Got his back broken during knockouts in 2014 (with the team collapsing soon after his exit), was rushed back from injury for 2018 and literally got injured AND rushed back from injury for 2022. I don't think it indicates anything about him other than being crazy unlucky not to have one clean tournament.
What's the excuse for the Copas?
 

antohan

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It was all about personal glory. The three best penalty takers should take the first three penalties in any order they choose. A good start to a penalty shootout is essential. There is a statistic that the first team to go one up with equal penalties taken wins the shootout 75% of the time.

Neymar wanting to take the 5th was all about him. He chose personal glory over the team and it backfired. The sooner Brazil move on and realize Neymar is not Pele or Ronaldo (Brazilian) they will be better for it.

Three World Cups they have built around him and they have been rubbish by the standards set by pervious teams.
Look, I'm not his biggest fan. You can probably find posts of mine calling him a prick as far back as 2010.

The one thing you can't say about Neymar is putting personal glory over the team's interest, certainly not in a Brazil context. He has known only too well how enormous the weight of expectation is and how his injuries have, time and again, let his team down at crunch time. There's no way he was 5th for any reason other than trust he would hold his nerve under pressure.

He has mellowed with age I reckon, these days I feel a bit sorry for him really.
 

Acrobat7

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Look, I'm not his biggest fan. You can probably find posts of mine calling him a prick as far back as 2010.

The one thing you can't say about Neymar is putting personal glory over the team's interest, certainly not in a Brazil context. He has known only too well how enormous the weight of expectation is and how his injuries have, time and again, let his team down at crunch time. There's no way he was 5th for any reason other than trust he would hold his nerve under pressure.

He has mellowed with age I reckon, these days I feel a bit sorry for him really.
I was warming up to him again as well (his quality on the pitch was never in question) but his fanboying for Bolsonaro stopped that in its tracks.
 

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I was warming up to him again as well (his quality on the pitch was never in question) but his fanboying for Bolsonaro stopped that in its tracks.
He’s still an idiot but I also give him he was unfairly considered as self centered and arrogant as the likes of Ronaldo, and he surely had bad luck with injuries - a large part of it was also down to him being one of the most fouled players of the game.
 

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Now, Brazil are kinda frauds, but their only trophy in god-knows how long was without Neymar in the team, was it not?
 

antohan

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I was warming up to him again as well (his quality on the pitch was never in question) but his fanboying for Bolsonaro stopped that in its tracks.
You guys have a rather B&W view on Bolsonaro.

It's perfectly legitimate for a Brazilian to support Bolsonaro. In fact, almost half the country does.
 

UDontMessWith24

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All of the natural gifts any footballer could ask for, but he’s not R9, not Ronaldinho, or even Rivaldo or Romario. Having said that he is one of the greatest of his generation and he’s already had a career most would kill for. If he can win it in 2026 he should be mentioned with the above Brazilian legends.
 

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You guys have a rather B&W view on Bolsonaro.

It's perfectly legitimate for a Brazilian to support Bolsonaro. In fact, almost half the country does.
The fact half the country supports him doesn’t make it legitimate to support him. Just like it didn’t when it was Donald Trump in the USA.

He’s a facist. End of discussion.
 

antohan

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The fact half the country supports him doesn’t make it legitimate to support him. Just like it didn’t when it was Donald Trump in the USA.

He’s a facist. End of discussion.
You are saying it isn't legitimate for him to support the same guy half his countrymen support because you don't like him (or Trump)? Democracy redefined.

As I said, black and white.

I have run a business in Brazil for 30 years. There has never been less corruption than in the last five years or so. I haven't been asked for a bribe for four years now. The last time I participated in a tender which looked clearly predetermined by the powers that be... five people were in jail within a month.

The political innuendos don't affect me much at all, same as for the majority of people living anywhere. I'm rather indifferent about the factions and how they may handle the economy, etc (they all largely adhere to the same formulas). But that's one tangible real thing I can put my finger on, which isn't at all insignificant in a developing country with a history of massive corruption issues.
 

phelans shorts

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You are saying it isn't legitimate for him to support the same guy half his countrymen support because you don't like him (or Trump)? Democracy redefined.

As I said, black and white.

I have run a business in Brazil for 30 years. There has never been less corruption than in the last five years or so. I haven't been asked for a bribe for four years now. The last time I participated in a tender which looked clearly predetermined by the powers that be... five people were in jail within a month.

The political innuendos don't affect me much at all, same as for the majority of people living anywhere. I'm rather indifferent about the factions and how they may handle the economy, etc (they all largely adhere to the same formulas). But that's one tangible real thing I can put my finger on, which isn't at all insignificant in a developing country with a history of massive corruption issues.
and Mussolini made the trains run on time. It doesn’t outweigh the bad in that example either.
 

Pickle85

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Isn't Bolsonaro an absolute shite for what he's willing to let happen to the rainforest, quite apart from his backwards, regressive views on things like gender and sexuality?
 

dinostar77

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All of the natural gifts any footballer could ask for, but he’s not R9, not Ronaldinho, or even Rivaldo or Romario. Having said that he is one of the greatest of his generation and he’s already had a career most would kill for. If he can win it in 2026 he should be mentioned with the above Brazilian legends.
Will he still be playing in 2026? I dont see him playing into his mid 30s. Besides if endrick continues his meteroic rise. He'll be the next gen talent that brasil build their attack around.

Neymar is unlucky that the 3 Rs had each other around the same time. Though Romario didnt have any great support cast in 94. Add one of peak Ronaldinho, R9 or Rivaldo to this brasil team and they become its best and most talented player by default and make brasil so much more dangerous.
 

antohan

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Isn't Bolsonaro an absolute shite for what he's willing to let happen to the rainforest, quite apart from his backwards, regressive views on things like gender and sexuality?
He is an antiquated and unsavoury guy, yes.

The rainforest bit is a bit harder to run the rule on. Goes along similar lines to developing countries complaining about ecological quotas after the developed world destroyed the environment for hundreds of years. I disagree with it because I love the Amazon rainforest more than the righteousness of the green angle.
 

Acrobat7

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You guys have a rather B&W view on Bolsonaro.

It's perfectly legitimate for a Brazilian to support Bolsonaro. In fact, almost half the country does.
No, i don’t respect someone who supports a fascist. Sorry if this view is too extreme for you.
 

alexo1505

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You guys have a rather B&W view on Bolsonaro.

It's perfectly legitimate for a Brazilian to support Bolsonaro. In fact, almost half the country does.
what is this post. half of america supports trump, doesnt mean he is a good guy
 

antohan

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No, i don’t respect someone who supports a fascist. Sorry if this view is too extreme for you.
Nuanced, as per usual

Guy isn't my cup of tea but his government has been good for Brazil and that's ultimately what many Brazilians see and vote for. That includes women who think he is a complete twat.
 

UDontMessWith24

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Will he still be playing in 2026? I dont see him playing into his mid 30s. Besides if endrick continues his meteroic rise. He'll be the next gen talent that brasil build their attack around.

Neymar is unlucky that the 3 Rs had each other around the same time. Though Romario didnt have any great support cast in 94. Add one of peak Ronaldinho, R9 or Rivaldo to this brasil team and they become its best and most talented player by default and make brasil so much more dangerous.
They really should have won 3 world cups in a row without whatever it is that happened with Ronaldo before the 98 final. The squads they had in 2002 and 2006 were ridiculous too. They haven’t been back to that standard talent wise since them imo
 

Acrobat7

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Nuanced, as per usual

Guy isn't my cup of tea but his government has been good for Brazil and that's ultimately what many Brazilians see and vote for. That includes women who think he is a complete twat.
You gotta be kidding me. Have a nice day.
 

dinostar77

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They really should have won 3 world cups in a row without whatever it is that happened with Ronaldo before the 98 final. The squads they had in 2002 and 2006 were ridiculous too. They haven’t been back to that standard talent wise since them imo
2006 they ran into a magician in zidane, who not for the sending off in the final agaunst italy, probably had the best individual performances at a WC since maradonna 86.

Still they had R9, ronaldinho, kaka, Roberto carlos, Cafu. So the core of spine was still there.
 

antohan

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what is this post. half of america supports trump, doesnt mean he is a good guy
Which in turn doesn't mean it's legitimate for an American football player to support him, seeing as half his fellow countrymen do. Why would you expect any different from a football player?
 

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I also don’t particularly like him, but I agree he has been hugely unlucky with injuries during his 3 World Cup appearances. And thus far he still has scored the same number of knockout stage goals as Messi and Ronaldo combined, although that may change in a few days !

How many players in history have faced as much individual pressure at a World Cup as he faced in 2014 (the Brazilian media and public are surely by far the most demanding going into every World Cup, and on home soil that would have been further magnified), when he was just 22? Very few I’d imagine.

I have to admit, when a player has been fouled as often as he has been season after season / tournament after tournament at club / international level, I can’t really blame them for indulging in ‘theatrics’.
 

dinostar77

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The guardian on neymar.

"..Why does Neymar annoy people? Because he’s annoying. The on-pitch theatrics have been grim to watch, most notably the Total Tantrum-Ball stuff in 2018 and the habit of always appealing to the referee, something the journalist Tim Vickery says has links to growing up as a futsal kid, a discipline where fouls are called constantly and the ref is always on hand..."

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...l-talent-toxic-qatar-world-cup-2022-end-point
 

Red the Bear

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They really should have won 3 world cups in a row without whatever it is that happened with Ronaldo before the 98 final. The squads they had in 2002 and 2006 were ridiculous too. They haven’t been back to that standard talent wise since them imo
Not really, I thought Italy was better in 1994 and im not sure an on form Ronaldo makes enough of a difference to win them that final.
 

Red the Bear

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You guys have a rather B&W view on Bolsonaro.

It's perfectly legitimate for a Brazilian to support Bolsonaro. In fact, almost half the country does.
I doubt most of them follow the Brazilian politics to begin with.

He gets unfavorable coverage in lef leaning media and so bolosrano=evil incarnate.
 

Gio

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Not really, I thought Italy was better in 1994 and im not sure an on form Ronaldo makes enough of a difference to win them that final.
Aye I’m not sure. The 98 final was such a farce with Brazil so shell-shocked and effectively down to 10 it’s hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. The semi-final against Holland showed that Ronaldo on his game could get them over the line even when they looked like they were up against a better team. But it also showed Brazil were vulnerable at crosses and Kluivert had the chances to knock them out. Zidane would not be so forgiving. I reckon Zagallo made mistakes in not selecting Mauro Silva (the sort of annoying player that could have kept a closer handle on a dominant Zidane) and Romario (who would likely have been well recovered by that point) in his squad. The latter would’ve made any decision to drop Ronaldo less of a disaster.
 

dinostar77

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I doubt most of them follow the Brazilian politics to begin with.

He gets unfavorable coverage in lef leaning media and so bolosrano=evil incarnate.
Anyone whos happen to destory vast swathes of the amazon rainforest is a complete and utter tool. His approach to the covid crisis in brasil was criminal. An awful human being.
 

Zehner

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They really should have won 3 world cups in a row without whatever it is that happened with Ronaldo before the 98 final. The squads they had in 2002 and 2006 were ridiculous too. They haven’t been back to that standard talent wise since them imo
Yeah, those squads were crazily good in terms of individual talent. Better than France now in that regard.
 

antohan

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Anyone whos happen to destory vast swathes of the amazon rainforest is a complete and utter tool.
It wasn't really Bolsonaro destroying them but those wanting to make a productive use of the land, much like other men have done the world over for aeons. The argument goes the rest of the world can plant their own trees and/or pay towards the maintenance of the Amazon rainforest as a world reserve / lung / whatever. It's not particularly bonkers.

His approach to the covid crisis in brasil was criminal. An awful human being.
His approach was as misguided as Trump's or BoJo's: denial, stupid theories, prioritising the economy... The adoption and execution of disparate sanitary policies isn't at federal but at state and municipal level though, so the owners of the disaster are state governors and city mayors primarily.

As an example, I had all my employees in one state vaccinated in Jan 2001 (healthcare = priority 1) while the ones in another started getting vaccinated in May with the general public (public healthcare in Feb, but if you were private healthcare you weren't priority, even if there was no market for me to sort it out privately).

That sort of shit isn't on Bolsonaro. In fact, what you can accuse him of is not trodding all over Brazil's institutional order and forcing one unified will on the entire country at a time of need. The sort of thing fascists actually love doing.
 
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Kulspruta

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It wasn't really Bolsonaro destroying them but those wanting to make a productive use of the land, much like other men have done the world over for aeons. The argument goes the rest of the world can plant their own trees and/or pay towards the maintenance of the Amazon rainforest as a world reserve / lung / whatever. It's not particularly bonkers.


His approach was as misguided as Trump's or BoJo's: denial, stupid theories, prioritising the economy... The adoption and execution of disparate sanitary policies isn't at federal but at state and municipal level though, so the owners of the disaster are state governors and city mayors primarily.

As an example, I had all my employees in one state vaccinated in Jan 2001 (healthcare = priority 1) while the ones in another started getting vaccinated in May with the general public (public healthcare in Feb, but if you were private healthcare you weren't priority, even if there was no market for me to sort it out privately).

That sort of shit isn't on Bolsonaro. In fact, what you can accuse him of is not trodding all over Brazil's institutional order and forcing one unified will on the entire country at a time of need. The sort of thing fascists actually love doing.
I’m brazilian. Anyone in Brazil, naturals or residents, could take the vaccine from January onwards through public healthcare, despite Bolsonaro. The first vaccine to be available in Brazil was the chinese CoronaVac, which Bolsonaro publicly attacked many times and actually tried to halt negotiations with the chinese (only reason the deal was made was because of São Paulo’s governor and Instituto Butantan). Not to mention the conspiracy theories and fake news widespread through his electoral mass that made far more difficult to control the spreading of the disease. One last thing is that Brazil for the last 20 years had a model vaccination program with its public healthcare system (SUS) and was therefore very well prepared for vaccine application throughout the country.

With Bolsonaro we had to endure:

1 - A fall from grace in international diplomacy (Brazil used to be a mediator between the world powers, always on the side of the needy, and is right now a pariah)
2 - The emptying of culture funds, the appointed culture minister a crazy gun-wielding talentless actor that hadn’t worked in the industry for more than 20 years.
3 - The shameful emptying of funds for science
4 - Corruption scandals on the public health department (overbilling of vaccines)
5 - Corruption scandals on the education ministry (funds being released in exchanges of gold inside bibles!)
6 - Emptying of the public education funds (the national exams have been pure trouble for the last 4 years)
7 - Populism that spent way more than the government could have spent and inflation through the roof
8 - A population that’s now in a permanent state of collective cognitive disfunction, through fake news and conspiracy theories being spread by robots through the internet and messaging apps. Families torn apart from his lies.
9 - A 500 billion reais blunt on the energy department
10 - An increase of more than 5 times the number of firearms available in the country (mostly in the hands of organized crime)
11 - The rise of militiaman to the governmental high office.
12 - Distrust on the judiciary system
13 - Validation of prejudiced ideas for the common people

get out of here!
 
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Kulspruta

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Personally, I don’t like Neymar one bit. But from a footballing only perspective he’s a player who represents a lot more of what I like in this game than any other player right now. The freedom to express oneself in a football pitch shouldn’t be curbed, the fact the guy gets such a crooked perception from european viewers such as in this forum, despite all of the skills, the joy and the fantastic in his game is indicative of the state of things in the sport. Injured in three consecutive world cups because of defenders, including a blatant assault that almost made him lose his mobility for life, and people in here talk as if with him it’s a question of mental fortitude?

I read the game topic on Brazil vs Croatia in here and people were talking about how bad he was, and then I saw his highlights in the game again and my God what a player he is, even taking injections to be able to play. And then you get people here talking about breaking legs and whatnot, and again I question myself if the GAME of football is what people really like…

Whether you like him or not, Neymar’s Brazil created more chances and had more shots on goal than any other team in this world cup, and almost everything through him. With 8 golaços in the competition Brazil leaves the World Cup because of a deflected goal (after a whole game without any shots at goal from Croatia) in a minute of carelessness, and that’s how World Cups are. But you won’t get this same kind of fun from any other team.

Well, it’s also a bit hard to get the ball rolling and enjoy football with a guy like Michael Oliver (uncanny resemblance to Bolsonaro) refereeing.
 
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calodo2003

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I’m brazilian. Anyone in Brazil, naturals or residents, could take the vaccine from January onwards through public healthcare, despite Bolsonaro. The first vaccine to be available in Brazil was the chinese CoronaVac, which Bolsonaro publicly attacked many times and actually tried to halt negotiations with the chinese (only reason the deal was made was because of São Paulo’s governor and Instituto Butantan). Not to mention the conspiracy theories and fake news widespread through his electoral mass that made far more difficult to control the spreading of the disease. One last thing is that Brazil for the last 20 years had a model vaccination program with its public healthcare system (SUS) and was therefore very well prepared for vaccine application throughout the country.

With Bolsonaro we had to endure:

1 - A fall from grace in international diplomacy (Brazil used to be a mediator between the world powers, always on the side of the needy, and is right now a pariah)
2 - The emptying of culture funds, the appointed culture minister a crazy gun-wielding talentless actor that hadn’t worked in the industry for more than 20 years.
3 - The shameful emptying of funds for science
4 - Corruption scandals on the public health department (overbilling of vaccines)
5 - Corruption scandals on the education ministry (funds being released in exchanges of gold inside bibles!)
6 - Emptying of the public education funds (the national exams have been pure trouble for the last 4 years)
7 - Populism that spent way more than the government could have spent and inflation through the roof
8 - A population that’s now in a permanent state of collective cognitive disfunction, through fake news and conspiracy theories being spread by robots through the internet and messaging apps. Families torn apart from his lies.
9 - A 500 billion reais blunt on the energy department
10 - An increase of more than 5 times the number of firearms available in the country (mostly in the hands of organized crime)
11 - The rise of militiaman to the governmental high office.
12 - Distrust on the judiciary system
13 - Validation of prejudiced ideas for the common people

get out of here!
Way too black & white here, no nuance at all.
 

antohan

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I’m brazilian. Anyone in Brazil, naturals or residents, could take the vaccine from January onwards through public healthcare, despite Bolsonaro. The first vaccine to be available in Brazil was the chinese CoronaVac, which Bolsonaro publicly attacked many times and actually tried to halt negotiations with the chinese (only reason the deal was made was because of São Paulo’s governor and Instituto Butantan). Not to mention the conspiracy theories and fake news widespread through his electoral mass that made far more difficult to control the spreading of the disease. One last thing is that Brazil for the last 20 years had a model vaccination program with its public healthcare system (SUS) and was therefore very well prepared for vaccine application throughout the country.

With Bolsonaro we had to endure:

1 - A fall from grace in international diplomacy (Brazil used to be a mediator between the world powers, always on the side of the needy, and is right now a pariah)
2 - The emptying of culture funds, the appointed culture minister a crazy gun-wielding talentless actor that hadn’t worked in the industry for more than 20 years.
3 - The shameful emptying of funds for science
4 - Corruption scandals on the public health department (overbilling of vaccines)
5 - Corruption scandals on the education ministry (funds being released in exchanges of gold inside bibles!)
6 - Emptying of the public education funds (the national exams have been pure trouble for the last 4 years)
7 - Populism that spent way more than the government could have spent and inflation through the roof
8 - A population that’s now in a permanent state of collective cognitive disfunction, through fake news and conspiracy theories being spread by robots through the internet and messaging apps. Families torn apart from his lies.
9 - A 500 billion reais blunt on the energy department
10 - An increase of more than 5 times the number of firearms available in the country (mostly in the hands of organized crime)
11 - The rise of militiaman to the governmental high office.
12 - Distrust on the judiciary system
13 - Validation of prejudiced ideas for the common people

get out of here!
Look mate, it's obvious you have beef with him, just like the other 50%+ of the country. As I said earlier, I'm quite indifferent either way so long as they let me get on with it.

The vaccine thing I pointed out is something I know to be a fact. Coronavac was available from January yes, but the different states rolled out as they saw fit, some clearly better than others. I had healthcare workers vaccined in January in some states and in May/June in others because private healthcare workers were vaccined based on age with everyone else. Massive ideological nonsense going on there.

Anyhow, we agree on my original point which is that Neymar should be judged for what he does on the pitch and not on whether you agree with his political views or not. If he went about the place doing nazi salutes, fair enough, but that's quite clearly not the case.