Neymar ironically still has more KO goals at the WC than Messi/Ronaldo combined last time I checked.
His problem since his PSG move is that he's gotten injured at the worst times.
The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?
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His problem since his PSG move is that he's gotten injured at the worst times.
There's too much biases when it comes to Neymar on the cafe. He's one of the most hated players with one of the best resumes in the past 20 years.
Always felt like he's playing for himself in this WC. He's trying to look like a one man show but failed. He should look at how Messi, Modric, or Griezman not making it all about themselves but still shining when it matters.
this one below:What fanfiction?
These hyperboles can only be classed as fanfiction.
Again, Neymar gets derided in this thread for going to the French league but I'm supposed to take achievements at PSV seriously? Neymar played in the Messi/Ronaldo era. 2015-17 ballon d'ors would have been his any other time period - I don't think it's a mark against him or how good he is/has been.
No one implied this
Ronaldinho would win a Ballon d’or at any time, he was the few players in the last 20 years who had enough sheer genius to win these awards not necessarily being the most productive player in the world.
go back and watch the 2002 World Cup please
He doesn't win a single one if it coincides with Messi's prime.
There were like numerous Brazil players who played more of a key role in their 2002 success. And Ronaldinho had minimal pressure in that WC. Ronaldo was under serious pressure and scrutiny prior to that WC.
When Dinho was the main man in 2006 and had the weight of pressure/expectations on his shoulder, he completely flopped.
Agree to disagree.
What a god damn stupid argument. Zidane doesn’t win a single one if it coincides with Messi’s prime. R9 doesn’t win a single one if it coincides with Messi’s prime. Let’s use it for very single player before and after Messi’s prime.
They should have a separate category for the Ballon...."Messi's Prime"
Ronaldinho overrated
. For those good few years nobody could touch him. The gap between him and other players was so huge that I don’t remember anyone having a discussion about who was the best. Never seen a player actually destroying defenders for real other than R9. The likes of Nesta, Carvalho, Ramos etc not able to handle him at all. The second best player during his time was kaka who was a magnificent player himself but still was nowhere even close to ronaldinho. Also, Ronaldinho didn’t perform at all for BrazilI know right. Probably the most foolish argument I have ever heard from anyone.
If I remember correctly there is a Brazilian "Ballon d'Or". During Pelé's Prime they created a separate award for everybody else, perhaps someone can look up the details.
Regarding Neymar he is criminally underrated. He actually replaced Prime Messi for 6 months or how long he was out without Barcelona missing a beat, nobody else on earth could have done it.
As for his move to PSG it doesn't make him any better or worse. 35 year old Zlatan arrived from a 4 year stint at PSG and was Uniteds best player. 36 year old Thiago Silva arrived from a 8 year stint at PSG and won the Champions League with Chelsea.
If Neymar arrived in the Premier League tomorrow he would be the best player of all time that has graced the league. Without a doubt better than Prime Henry and yet not Prime Ronaldo.
Such a ridiculous post
Guess your too young to have seen Romario and Ronaldinho play.
Except it isn't hyperbole. Did you even see the '94 world cup? Brazil won a world cup on "defend, then give it to Romario/put the ball in the box, Romario will take care of it".
Yes, given PSV had won the european cup the season before and signed him to replace Ruud Gullit.
Nope and nope, but sure, Neymar would have been the best player in the world for a while without those two and indeed has been at times
That’s hardly the standard when Ronaldo has 0 in 5 tournaments? He’s never even played a World Cup semi-final. Before Croatia, he scored a penalty against South Korea and a last 16 goal against Mexico.
Then compared to Brazil greats - Ronaldo has 8 goals, Pele has 7 or his team-mate Mbappé has 5 in knockout games.
No at PSG he’s also missed some big chances and not played his absolute best in crucial games also, can’t just blame injuries alone.
I really don’t care for hyperbole/fanfiction, so yeah
Well, I don’t. Like I said, easily verifiable how “French league” is used as a bullet point against Neymar in this thread - I‘m not about to care for what Romario did in the Dutch league
Glad we agree on something
Yeah, I was old enough to watch Ronaldo play and have him above him, but not enough to watch Ronaldinho. Makes sense.
Guess your too young to have seen Romario and Ronaldinho play.
You know a player can be amazing and still be overrated right? He is nowhere near the likes of Pele, Messi and Maradona but people constantly prop him up to that level.Ronaldinho overrated
And no Ronaldinho never performed as well as expected for Brazil. He had the entire world at his shoulders heading into the 2006 WC with all the pressure and expectations to deliver for Brazil and he failed.
Neymar has been far better for Brazil for Ronaldinho has.
I'm not disputing Ronaldinho was amazing prior to the 2006 WC for a 2 year period, but he declined quick and significantly after that.
Also for the Ballon D'Or argument,
Read the post I was responding to. The poster said Ronaldinho would win a Ballon D'Or in any time and I said he wouldn't.
For what it's worth, I think R9 in his prime could win a few, because he's simply a better player than Ronaldinho was.
Didn't say it was the standard, but just pointed it out as a retort to him 'failing'. I mean, he would have played a WC semi-final in 2014 were it not for injury. He came into the 2018 WC not fit. He then got injured in the 2022 WC and came back not fit.
I never said he was better than Ronaldo or Pele. Mbappe has been excellent in the WC, but prior to last season, Neymar has always outperformed him at PSG and is their creative hub.
What key games did he fail to perform in?
He wasn't good last season vs Real(but that was the only time he truly underperformed for them in the CL).
He got injured before the 2nd leg vs Real Madrid in 2017-2018(played fairly well in the 1st leg).
Missed both ties vs us in the 2018-2019 CL campaign.
Fit for the entirety of the 2019-2020 CL knockout stages and played a key role in leading PSG to the final. And Mbappe was the one who missed the key chance in the final.
Was excellent vs Bayern in both legs in 2020-2021. Fairly decent vs City in the semi-finals(Mbappe this time wasn't fit for the 1st leg and missed the 2nd leg completely).
I'm not saying he would have hit Messi's heights were it not for injury, but he's had some horrific luck with injuries lately.
He has 2 KO stage goals to Messi's 2 if I'm not mistaken?
Messi has the all time record for most assists in the KO stages with 5, while Neymar has 1.
can probably nitpick on some of @TsuWave points but I agree with the spirit, Neymar is one of the best players I’ve ever seen
Yeah he does have 2. That was before the Argentina-Holland game that Neymar had more than Messi/Ronaldo.
For what it's worth, I was not arguing for Neymar over Messi.
Oh I see. Didn't see the date on that post.
Fair enough. Didn't think you were necessarily arguing that Neymar was better, either. I tend to agree with you. Some underrating of him goes on, in here.
He has more KO stage goals than Ronaldo in 2 less tournaments and as many total world cup goals (more non penalty goals) in about half the matches played.
Those being critical should just try to be consistent and hold everyone else to the same standard because Neymar is a lot better than many all time greats at the highest level.
He’s been very good for Brazil, and a bit unlucky, it’s just people saying he’s better than Ronaldinho and Romario that’s my issue. It’s a high standard.
Neymar is in the conversation with these players though, you are talking about a genuinely great player. One thing about Ronaldinho is that the entertainment value and nostalgia surrounding it make people go a bit overboard, he is probably the player I have the most fondness for but he is rightfully not considered to be at the very top of rankings and Neymar won't either.
I don't think he's better than either but there's a middle ground between Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, and Romario, and the tier where some people like to place him.
If the comparison is to Romario, then I agree that he isn't Romario. I still think he's a great all time player though.
It's silly
IMO, It depends on the criteria. Are we talking about the national team? Are we talking about their play in Europe? Is it skill-set and overall ability?
I personally can only speak on the national team and Romario is above both but Neymar is better than Ronaldinho in that aspect. Don’t get me wrong young and hungry Ronaldinho 99-2003 was very good for the national team. Prime Ronaldinho was more disappointing, but I felt at the time his lackluster play was more tactics than Ronaldinho overall ability.
Recently saw a video of him at one of the group stage matches 2006 and he was excellent. Was 16 at the time so still a bit young to really judge, especially since he was my idol, but I wonder if it's just another case of "the team went out, the star player HAD to be shit" although he actually wasn't.
This is one of the only times I’ve ever felt sorry for Neymar. This time he did his bit, he stepped up and produced a moment of real quality that ought to have been enough to take his side through to the semi’s. Instead he was let down by his sides inability to see the game out in an effective manner.
Although he does deserve some criticism for making himself the 5th penalty taker. I’ll never understand that, I mean I know players want the glory kick but your best taker should always step up first. It’s far more important to get off to a strong start and set the tone.
Although he does deserve some criticism for making himself the 5th penalty taker. I’ll never understand that, I mean I know players want the glory kick but your best taker should always step up first. It’s far more important to get off to a strong start and set the tone.
He wasn’t shit but the knock on Ronaldinho was his performance for Barcelona did not match his performance for Brazil but like I mention it was more tactical. Carlos Alberto Parreira played him deeper and further away from goal unlike Barcelona.
What was 2002 ?
I'm starting to think some of you have serious recency bias problems.
Already addressed this with the point that he was outperformed by other Brazilians on the team and that he had no pressure in 2002 compared to the pressure he had in 2006.
He had a decent WC in 2002, but Ronaldo was the one with all of the pressure then. That shifted to Ronaldinho in 2006 and he failed.
What bias when he's been retired for years now
Recency bias. Im seeing it more and more on this forum where people shit on past players and hype current gen players like they're the second coming of jesus.Already addressed this with the point that he was outperformed by other Brazilians on the team and that he had no pressure in 2002 compared to the pressure he had in 2006.
He had a decent WC in 2002, but Ronaldo was the one with all of the pressure then. That shifted to Ronaldinho in 2006 and he failed.
What bias when he's been retired for years now
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this isn't funny at all, and just a bit pathetic honestly
He played a big part
Just rewatched the final the other night & he put a few beauties on the plate for Ronaldo before the main man got his brace
And we all know what he did to England
In 06 they were beaten by another genius
Zidane
No shame
Ronaldinho won it all
Leagues Cls World cups
Messi, (so far), Neymar, younger Ronaldo & tons more had more longevity, but this was the most exciting player in my lifetime
Saying Ronaldinho isn't one of the GOATs isn't shitting on him.
Already addressed this with the point that he was outperformed by other Brazilians on the team and that he had no pressure in 2002 compared to the pressure he had in 2006.
He had a decent WC in 2002, but Ronaldo was the one with all of the pressure then. That shifted to Ronaldinho in 2006 and he failed.
What bias when he's been retired for years now
He literally won the world cup
Who cares who has much pressure
Ronaldo’s greatness doesn’t mean Ronaldinho wasn’t amazing too