Mourinho has enough talent on that team to be producing some half decent football....it's shite to watch...tho from what some are saying the first half looked positive today but one half does not change my mind.Spurs didn't need anyone. They have tons of players and quality all over the field. United don't. That's the difference. Players aren't good enough and that's the owners fault.
The other 2 were brought by SAF. Should we crucify him as well?He bought 2 of them.
They served Fergie well, though. José wants to give up on his two after one and two years. I get why Ed isn't giving him money for another as he could easily give up on the 3rd CB after a year, too. José got what he wanted, now he needs to get the best out of them.The other 2 were brought by SAF. Should we crucify him as well?
Shit happens, sometimes players does not make it and need to be replaced. Surely that's not a problem for the richest club in the world right?
There is no way Sanchez and Pogba were not requested by Mou. He was crying for quality and transfers long before this season.Im curious to know how many are actually Mourinho signings? How many are Woody signings? Did Jose buy Lindelof, did he want Sanchez? What about Pogba, was he a Jose signing or had that been in the works before he even arrived? We dont know where Jose starts and Woody ends.
They were brought to replace Rio and Vidic, something they both failed miserable in. Also what makes you think that Jose has lost hope on Bailly and Lindelof? They are young players ie work in progress who will benefit greatly with an experienced defender around them. That's what Mou wanted.They served Fergie well, though. José wants to give up on his two after one and two years. I get why Ed isn't giving him money for another as he could easily give up on the 3rd CB after a year, too. José got what he wanted, now he needs to get the best out of them.
Yeah, ultimately they failed. Well, Smalling did alright. Under Sir Alex himself, though, they were valuable squad members. When they were fit, that is.They were brought to replace Rio and Vidic, something they both failed miserable in. Also what makes you think that Jose has lost hope on Bailly and Lindelof? They are young players ie work in progress who will benefit greatly with an experienced defender around them. That's what Mou wanted.
Both were brought at decent fees to replace Rio and Vidic. They failed miserably on thatYeah, ultimately they failed. Well, Smalling did alright. Under Sir Alex himself, though, they were valuable squad members. When they were fit, that is.
If José was willing to spend as much on them as we did, surely he'd want them both to be starters. I mean, everyone he's bought has been bought to improve us now bar Dalot. Even if he didn't think that of Bailly, you'd have thought his next CB would've been wanted as a starter if he thought our current ones weren't good enough but he asked for Lindelof instead when we could've got a more experienced head in. Yet they both seem to be in and out of the team even though, bar Smalling, the other options aren't doing much of anything either.
It's not like we needed two young options either with Tuanzebe who has always looked a better prospect than Lindelof for us. He should've asked for someone better than Lindelof after signing a prospect in Bailly and now needs to get the best out of what he himself asked for, imo.
Yeah, I'm not arguing they failed on that. They've still been useful squad members, though. Well, Smalling has. I don't agree that Jones has even though some think so.Both were brought at decent fees to replace Rio and Vidic. They failed miserably on that
Very true. Though, regarding Wes, I think he would've been a great CB if he hadn't been so injury prone. I loved him on the right in 07/08.SAF had just 3 WC CBs in his long career with us, 2 of which we paid world record fees for. In Rio SAF had to eat plenty of humble pie by paying the same fee he previously rated Wes for (which in his opinion was double of Rio's at leeds). Inflation in football mean that the amount of money we paid for bailly/lindelof is no different to the money we spent on Smalling and Jones, two other bets of a previous tenure.
Which isn't surprising at all. I can make a list of the porkies said by top managers about young defenders which turned into a farce. Which is fair enough since defenders require a level of maturity both physiological and physical that no one can predict if its going to be reached.
I actually agreed with José in wanting a CB. If I was Ed, I would've bought him one so I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying I can see where Ed is coming from in being reluctant to do so.Now we can either watch in horror as Mou failed bets, SAF failed bets and LVG failed bet ruin games for us. Or else we can act by spending big to sort the issue. That what SAF did when he brought RIO in after gambling on Wes, Mickey and Blanc
Pobga - who can't be arsed unless it suits him?Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Fred and Sanchez - thats enough to win.
I agree that the lack of sales is scandalous but also if Ed wants to target younger players, then you really need to know what you are doing. That is where a DOF would come in. If he thinks he can do it without, then he is on a hiding to nothing.Im curious to know how many are actually Mourinho signings? How many are Woody signings? Did Jose buy Lindelof, did he want Sanchez? What about Pogba, was he a Jose signing or had that been in the works before he even arrived? We dont know where Jose starts and Woody ends.
You need to give the manager the ability to build the team he wants around the tactics the team is going to play. Not just throw together a bunch of potential superstars and say make do. I will make a concession that he should be doing better with the players he has, but still, how many coaches are we going to go through before we decide this whole 'buying investments' thing doesnt work?
You have Jose wanting rid of players and Woody turning around saying nope. Because they are perceived as an investment? Because Woody likes them? This in and of itself is problematic, you want a yes man coach? Go hire one, dont hire Jose Mourinho.
Alderweireld looked the goods, I seen enough of Jones vs Kane last season, I didnt feel the need to repeat the process, but here we are.
Yeah, I'm not arguing they failed on that. They've still been useful squad members, though. Well, Smalling has. I don't agree that Jones has even though some think so.
Very true. Though, regarding Wes, I think he would've been a great CB if he hadn't been so injury prone. I loved him on the right in 07/08.
I actually agreed with José in wanting a CB. If I was Ed, I would've bought him one so I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying I can see where Ed is coming from in being reluctant to do so.
I mean, when we look at José's signings, they've all flattered to deceive. Season 1: Ibra did well as a stop gap, Pogba's been underwhelming, Bailly's been poor, Mkhi was bad.
& Season 2: Lukaku was overpriced and isn't showing to be good enough as a CF for a top team, Matic has been very good, Lindelof has been poor, Alexis has been underwhelming.
Out of all them, only Matic has been really good, imo. Zlatan did alright, too. Also, after a promising first season in terms of trophies won and promising performances, José got everyone he asked for bar Persisic and we looked like a lot worse for it.
It's all a bit of a mess at the moment. I agree that José should've been backed if we weren't going to sack him, but I see why the board now wants him to get the best out of what he has.
So what? That excuse is getting ridiculous. Every manager has bad buys. He made mistake and at least he detected that mistake.He bought 2 of them.
This fixation with 'Jose bought 2 CBs so he should make them work' is bizarre. Name one manager on this planet who has a 100% track record? There are always going to be hit or dud, at that point question becomes do you trust the manager to spend more money when his track record is mixed? If the answer is no, then do the right thing and sack him. Which is what Woodward should've done this summer when he didn't agree with his transfer strategy, why waste everyones time with the current season and put the fans through misery when we all know how it's going to end?The other 2 were brought by SAF. Should we crucify him as well?
Shit happens, sometimes players does not make it and need to be replaced. Surely that's not a problem for the richest club in the world right?
I suggest you read my previous post were I went into great detail of what I think. If you and others like it I might open a thread about what I think is the true problem with United.This fixation with 'Jose bought 2 CBs so he should make them work' is bizarre. Name one manager on this planet who has a 100% track record? There are always going to be hit or dud, at that point question becomes do you trust the manager to spend more money when his track record is mixed? If the answer is no, then do the right thing and sack him. Which is what Woodward should've done this summer when he didn't agree with his transfer strategy, why waste everyones time with the current season and put the fans through misery when we all know how it's going to end?
People are 100% right when they say Jose hasn't been able to extract most out of a lot of our players but there are few players like Lindelof where there is a ceiling. Dude has looked like a bag of nerves whenever he's played for us, even in the simplest of games. Since this place loves it comparison with City and Pep, why do you think Pep binned Mangala and rest of the shit in Fernando, Clichy, Sagna, Hart etc so quick? Because there is a ceiling to those individuals and at that point they weren't good enough for them. He spent £192.15m in his first season only to finish 15 points behind Chelsea, instead of asking him to make do with what he has the club gave him another £285.75m to fix the issues which included selling duds like Nolito and Bravo who were shipped after just one year. This kind of approach is what we are up against yet people are happy with Woodward's approach this summer? We proclaim to be richest club in the world yet our spending runs dry after Fred and Dalot? We need to sell before buying?
He's made a fool of all of us with his approach this year, hands Mourinho a contract extension for some bizarre reason in middle of the season then cuts his legs in the transfer window few months later. To make matters worse he didn't even have the balls to make the right call and get rid at the correct time.
Every player who is not performing is a club signing. To be fair, Matic was poor yesterday, so I am starting to wonder if he was a club's signing too.Huh? I could understand saying Pogba was a club signing but Lindelof? You would think that was a Mourinho signing since he was signed from Benfica.
That's why they finished ahead of us last season and have won all those trophies during the last few years.Every player in the spurs defence would make our 11. They didn't need signings.
Jesus I wish I could adopt that kind of reckless attitude in life with spending. Ok we made two bad buys, so what. Let's buy another one lolSo what? That excuse is getting ridiculous. Every manager has bad buys. He made mistake and at least he detected that mistake.
And who knows about lindelof. Was he his buy? Was he his 2nd or 5th choice? He is totally not jose type of defender. Especially in that situation where we had 4 defenders like him. I am sure that jose wanted some experienced defender that summer but didn't get it.
That is a good post and I agree but constantly championing Juventus is a bit tiresome. How on Earth did you become a United fan when you clearly hold Italian football in the highest esteem?I don't think any signings we made in defence (Smalling, Jones, Bailly, Lindelof and Rojo) were meant to add bodies to the team. All of them were meant to one day become 1st team players. One might say that Smalling and Jones had an added advantage of being brought by a manager whose been here for ages in a defence which was filled with experienced WC players who should tutor them and cover for their mistakes. That's a luxury the likes of Rojo, Bailly and Lindelof didn't had. Not to forget that SAF thought that United's future defence was pretty much sorted with DDG in goal, Smalling and Jones as CB and the Da Silva twins on the rear flanks. Out of 5 players only 1 managed to reach the expectations set. Should we crucify him on that too?
If you ask me, our problem is way bigger then Woodward, Mourinho, Moyes and LVG. Its this mentality that players need endless time and patience to succeed. Lets forget for a second all the people mentioned in here. It took us 8 long years to get rid of Anderson, a player whom time and time again spent ages either out of form or injured. Players are repeatedly kept way beyond their expiry date from Robson to Mclair right to Keane, Ando, Gaz, Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes and Giggs. Scholes himself once said that there's something wrong in a club whose best CMs happen to be 35 years+
Now lets see how a real top club work ie one whose been regularly winning for 60 years and whose 90% of its history does not rotate around 2 managers. Do you know what Buffon, Vialli, Ravanelli, Marchisio, Baggio and Del Piero has in common? They are all Juventus legends, they all gave their soul for the team and they were all DUMPED the moment Juventus thought they weren't up to standard or they could do better. Some tried to resort to emotional blackmail but failed miserably. Conte was a Juventus legend both as a player and a manager. He was a Roy Keane type of player who also happened to also win 3 league titles as Juventus manager. The moment he pissed off Juventus he knew he was on the way out.
Players are human beings and human beings are unpredictable. There's no shame in players failing to make the grade at a top club especially when they are young. Sure things should improve on that regards. Better scouts should be hired, a DOF might join but ultimately there's no such thing as a hundred per cent success rate. There's not even a 60% success rate. In fact even Juventus with their Marottas, the Paraticis, their Ribaltas etc had made some bad signings from Higuian right to Cuadrado, Zaza and in my opinion Ronaldo as well.
What is shameful is for the club to wait so long to acknowledge those who had failed and act accordingly. We claim to be the richest club in the world, yet we've got two 33 year old failed wingers as our first team full backs and a defence filled with mediocrity. We also play Lingard whose the football equivalent of SPAM, Martial wants out, DDG (the only top player we have) whose yet to sign a new contract and a horde of players whose at the end of their contracts. That stinks of bad administration.
Players should be judged in their first 2 seasons. If they fail to carry their weight during that time then they should be on their way out. Such strategy is not only good to keep everyone on their toes but also its good for business. You see, there's a bigger chance of clubs spending big on a promising player who went at United and failed to impress after 1-2 seasons then a confirmed failure whose been there for 4-6 years and had failed again and again. Also you'll avoid dishing contract extensions to players you know aren't good enough.
Juventus brought 6 players this season (Costa, Perin, Can, Cancelo, Ronaldo and Bonucci). Last season they brought 7 players (Cuadrado, Bentancur, Benatia, De Sciglio, Szenchy (or whatever he's called), Bernardeschi and Howedes). I am avoiding mentioning young players who were brought in only to be sent on loan. They work with a smaller budget then we do and do not claim to be the biggest club in the world. That's how successful football works.
The owners dont pick the players. If the players are not good enough, especially at CB Jose is also to blameSpurs didn't need anyone. They have tons of players and quality all over the field. United don't. That's the difference. Players aren't good enough and that's the owners fault.
Pep bought wrong winger,wrong keeper and wrong defender. Bought 3 new.Jesus I wish I could adopt that kind of reckless attitude in life with spending. Ok we made two bad buys, so what. Let's buy another one lol
SsshhhhThat's why they finished ahead of us last season and have won all those trophies during the last few years.
Did you miss the words “defence” and “11” in his post. Spurs needed more depth. They still do. That doesn’t change the fact that their best 11 is arguably (and back four, definitely) better than ours.That's why they finished ahead of us last season and have won all those trophies during the last few years.
I'm pretty sure they're their second 11 has a better back four then ours.Did you miss the words “defence” and “11” in his post. Spurs needed more depth. They still do. That doesn’t change the fact that their best 11 is arguably (and back four, definitely) better than ours.
Yes but both managers also then offloaded the wrong players. What do you think we are some big supermarket that keeps stockpiling piles of c*ap that no one else wants. I would have no objection to Jose buying another CB providing he is then forced to offload 2 of Jones, Rojo, Lindelof or Bailly first. Fair no?Pep bought wrong winger,wrong keeper and wrong defender. Bought 3 new.
Klopp bought wrong keeper and defender. Bought two new.
And what to say about fergie? He had some awful buys.
Spurs have two great attackers, two good defenders and a good GK(we have a better one) the rest of the squad is pretty meh.Did you miss the words “defence” and “11” in his post. Spurs needed more depth. They still do. That doesn’t change the fact that their best 11 is arguably (and back four, definitely) better than ours.
Yes, and that is the difference between the teams. Regression and Improvement. We are going backwards and it seems Mourinho cannot do nothing about it. It's time for change now.People harping on about lack of new signings and jumping Ed's throat make me laugh, especially after today's game.
Tottenham who didn't sign anyone and finished below us last season are showing improvement and looking a far better team than they were last season yet here we are trying to excuse our incompetence on lack of signings.
We didn't lose any players and should be able to show improvement with the same players from last seasons. Tottenham have shown that this signing story is a myth and just a sad excuse brought up.
Agreed. Arguably Mourinho in his first year had us playing better football and were more solid. Things seem to be going backwards and only getting worse, I just can't see him turning this round without "new signings"Yes, and that is the difference between the teams. Regression and Improvement. We are going backwards and it seems Mourinho cannot do nothing about it. It's time for change now.
Of course. But it is not on jose to sell players. Woody is the one who does not know how to sell. Do you really think that jose wanted two defenders on top of this 5? Jose often said that his ideal squad is 23 players plus 2 kids.Yes but both managers also then offloaded the wrong players. What do you think we are some big supermarket that keeps stockpiling piles of c*ap that no one else wants. I would have no objection to Jose buying another CB providing he is then forced to offload 2 of Jones, Rojo, Lindelof or Bailly first. Fair no?
We sacrificed nothing. Our midfield is shit and our attacking play pathetic, the only thing that works is our defense when you include De Gea who is truly great.Defence was second best last season cos we sacrificed attacking play
The way we played today with high press and tempo is made easier for each game with a cb like toby there
It's easy to say why didn't he sort this out before but what options were available to do so?
This season we had a chance and it was vetoed
Then we ought to ask how many of the Moyes signings were his, how many of LVG's were his, right?Im curious to know how many are actually Mourinho signings? How many are Woody signings? Did Jose buy Lindelof, did he want Sanchez? What about Pogba, was he a Jose signing or had that been in the works before he even arrived? We dont know where Jose starts and Woody ends.
You need to give the manager the ability to build the team he wants around the tactics the team is going to play. Not just throw together a bunch of potential superstars and say make do. I will make a concession that he should be doing better with the players he has, but still, how many coaches are we going to go through before we decide this whole 'buying investments' thing doesnt work?
You have Jose wanting rid of players and Woody turning around saying nope. Because they are perceived as an investment? Because Woody likes them? This in and of itself is problematic, you want a yes man coach? Go hire one, dont hire Jose Mourinho.
Alderweireld looked the goods, I seen enough of Jones vs Kane last season, I didnt feel the need to repeat the process, but here we are.
Matic?Three years after LVG and again we lack balance in the team. We lack a proper DM, one injury to Rojo and our CB depth is bad because of injury prone Jones/clueless Lindelof. We have one decent LB, too many average players in Mata/Lingard/Rashford and not enough attacking depth. It's clear we need a DOF cause the manager/Ed system just isn't good enough.
It worked with Fergie cause he was a great leader who knew exactly what pieces he needs to win & sustain his system. Mourinho has never built a team to win (always bought) & Ed only cares about shirt sales. Not shocking.
