The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

[MetoTTT]

It's pretty clear Ole wanted Grealish, Ed has bought VdB but playing Mata on the right and still not start VdB it's criminal.

 

[Preggy99]

DVB can play in any midfield position and be effective. Ole playing Fred and Matic at home against a team like the Baggies is criminal, Especially when we have someone with VDB's qualities sitting on the bench. In a game where we are going to have a high percentage of possession it is backward to play 2 defensive midfielders. DVB playing as the number 8 or even part of the 3 behind the striker would be miles better than playing Matic and Fred. he can open doors, his one touch passing creates space and causes problems for the opposition. 2 DM's have their place in certain games but not at Home vs a bang average West Brom team FFS.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

DVB can play in any midfield position and be effective. Ole playing Fred and Matic at home against a team like the Baggies is criminal, Especially when we have someone with VDB's qualities sitting on the bench. In a game where we are going to have a high percentage of possession it is backward to play 2 defensive midfielders. DVB playing as the number 8 or even part of the 3 behind the striker would be miles better than playing Matic and Fred. he can open doors, his one touch passing creates space and causes problems for the opposition. 2 DM's have their place in certain games but not at Home vs a bang average West Brom team FFS.

2 DM wasn't the big problem against WBA. They are not the main reason why Martial wasn't clinical, why Mata offered zero creativity & why Rashford played poor. Those three underperformed because it's down to themselves.

I would prefer us to upgrade Matic but not with someone like Donny who is more effective in attacking mid. By having the double pivot, we allow our front four to do less defensive work and we allow our full backs to go forward more often.

 

[Ikon]

It's pretty clear Ole wanted Grealish, Ed has bought VdB but playing Mata on the right and still not start VdB it's criminal.

It really does feel to me like an Ole protest, as he seems to have absolutely no appetite to give VdB a start.
Personally, I thought that Donny would provide competition and cover for Bruno and Pogba, but it doesn't even seem to be that.

I'm also wondering what will happen when Diallo arrives.
Will Ole actually give him a look in or is he going to be in the same boat as VdB..?

 

[Red00012]

The ideal game to play him yesterday. If he can't game a game against West Brom with Pogba absent then I find that questionable.

Unfortunately Ole likes his 2 defensive midfielders even when we are at home to West Brom.

 

[Tibs]

I wouldn't be surprised if we start playing Williams or Fosu Mensah on the right wing soon just to give more protection to the defence.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I wouldn't be surprised if we start playing Williams or Fosu Mensah on the right wing soon just to give more protection to the defence.

Which will make the defence feel absolutely fantastic. He should be making them feel good about themselves, coaching them properly as a defensive unit, not putting the blame on them and making them feel inadequate. Think this is actually showing up Ole's limitations as a coach.

 

[Lash]

2 DM wasn't the big problem against WBA. They are not the main reason why Martial wasn't clinical, why Mata offered zero creativity & why Rashford played poor. Those three underperformed because it's down to themselves.

I would prefer us to upgrade Matic but not with someone like Donny who is more effective in attacking mid. By having the double pivot, we allow our front four to do less defensive work and we allow our full backs to go forward more often.

Yeah, I found it really odd the focus was on the midfield in commentary when the front 3 were really poor. Mata actually had the best game out of the front three and that should never be the case.

 

[poleglass red]

It seemed strange in that game, every time Bruno had the ball he was looking to hit over the top of the defence, he made a good pass to Mata at one point. The problem is we had no runners going in behind, drifiting into the box late. I just felt that, that is exactly the area VDB likes to drift into, arriving late in box. I understood why Matic started, they still want the 2 holding mids, but in game like WBA where we knew we would have more possession, they wanted a better passer in there, which Matic typically is, but he was poor yesterday. It was evident early on he wasn't at the races, I felt he should have been hauled of at half time. I think we needed a change to try and spark us into life a bit. This game more than ever shows why we need 1 good DM in there, we can't keep playing 2. At home v WBA worst defence record in league and we have 2 dm's starting. Ole doesn't trust our central defence, hence the 2 dm's per game.

 

[UmbroDays]

It seemed strange in that game, every time Bruno had the ball he was looking to hit over the top of the defence, he made a good pass to Mata at one point. The problem is we had no runners going in behind, drifiting into the box late. I just felt that, that is exactly the area VDB likes to drift into, arriving late in box. I understood why Matic started, they still want the 2 holding mids, but in game like WBA where we knew we would have more possession, they wanted a better passer in there, which Matic typically is, but he was poor yesterday. It was evident early on he wasn't at the races, I felt he should have been hauled of at half time. I think we needed a change to try and spark us into life a bit. This game more than ever shows why we need 1 good DM in there, we can't keep playing 2. At home v WBA worst defence record in league and we have 2 dm's starting. Ole doesn't trust our central defence, hence the 2 dm's per game.

Well we should have sorted the defense in Summer instead of going for VdB and getting a defender. It's just a total mind melt thinking of the BS transfer saga that we had.

 

[MetoTTT]

It really does feel to me like an Ole protest, as he seems to have absolutely no appetite to give VdB a start.
Personally, I thought that Donny would provide competition and cover for Bruno and Pogba, but it doesn't even seem to be that.

I'm also wondering what will happen when Diallo arrives.
Will Ole actually give him a look in or is he going to be in the same boat as VdB..?

I agree but it's kind of stupid because you have to start your best players to try to win games. VdB has to adapt to the EPL but I think he has more to offer than Mata, McT and Pogba (post COVID) and has to be played a lot more imo. Even as a RM he will bring a lot of energy, creativity and will track back.

 

[friendlytramp]

I can accurately surmise that ole wanted Grealish for the role but Woodward decide VDB was better value,

 

[Preggy99]

We have all seen what VDB can do in the deeper role alongside 1 DM. Positionally he will be in there as a DM, but the way he moves the ball quickly/forwards is quality. What he offers us setting up attacks from that deeper position allows Bruno freedom to stay more forward where he can do serious damage to opposition teams. I believe DVB can do a job in there too against better opposition, he can put a foot in and gets around the pitch well enough. Surely this has put an end to the myth that is we need to play 2 DM's that offer us zero going forwards. We are Man Utd, F* caution and negative football, lets outscore whoever we play!!

 

[Bilbo]

We have all seen what VDB can do in the deeper role alongside 1 DM. Positionally he will be in there as a DM, but the way he moves the ball quickly/forwards is quality. What he offers us setting up attacks from that deeper position allows Bruno freedom to stay more forward where he can do serious damage to opposition teams. I believe DVB can do a job in there too against better opposition, he can put a foot in and gets around the pitch well enough. Surely this has put an end to the myth that is we need to play 2 DM's that offer us zero going forwards. We are Man Utd, F* caution and negative football, lets outscore whoever we play!!

Its not a myth that we need to play 2 DM's, we just look like a better team whenever we do. Everyone was really impressed by Donny's performance and rightly so, but we need to see how that manages against better opposition before it becomes our default.

 

[romufc]

Its not a myth that we need to play 2 DM's, we just look like a better team whenever we do. Everyone was really impressed by Donny's performance and rightly so, but we need to see how that manages against better opposition before it becomes our default.

Exactly. People are so concentrated on the DM's and forget we have 4 players upfront that should be creating chances, now its 5 with Telles pushing so high. You cannot play 1 DM and then also have 2 full backs pushing up.

The team needs balance, if we play Fred Donny in games, we will get ripped apart and everyone will blame the manager.

Look at the games with 2 DM's, we have won most of them games.

 

[Bilbo]

Exactly. People are so concentrated on the DM's and forget we have 4 players upfront that should be creating chances, now its 5 with Telles pushing so high. You cannot play 1 DM and then also have 2 full backs pushing up.

The team needs balance, if we play Fred Donny in games, we will get ripped apart and everyone will blame the manager.

Look at the games with 2 DM's, we have won most of them games.

I wouldn't say that we'd necessarily get ripped apart, that remains to be seen, but yes without doubt everyone will blame the manager. People need to realise that we'd need to make adjustments to make a Donny + 1 midfield two work, and I'm sure we will try to do that because it would be crazy not to, but it might cost us a result somewhere along the line. We can't have it both ways. We all wanted to see a diamond formation here, so we tried it and lost a game, and Ole gets hammered. If he tries this against Southampton and we lose the game, he gets hammered

 

[romufc]

I wouldn't say that we'd necessarily get ripped apart, that remains to be seen, but yes without doubt everyone will blame the manager. People need to realise that we'd need to make adjustments to make a Donny + 1 midfield two work, and I'm sure we will try to do that because it would be crazy not to, but it might cost us a result somewhere along the line. We can't have it both ways. We all wanted to see a diamond formation here, so we tried it and lost a game, and Ole gets hammered. If he tries this against Southampton and we lose the game, he gets hammered

Yep, its become a lose lose situation for him. If he plays the same team and we lose its "he should of known we cant play without 2 DM's" or other way round "Why didn't he play same team as Istanbul"

He just needs to win games, whichever way he does it.

 

[Preggy99]

Exactly. People are so concentrated on the DM's and forget we have 4 players upfront that should be creating chances, now its 5 with Telles pushing so high. You cannot play 1 DM and then also have 2 full backs pushing up.

The team needs balance, if we play Fred Donny in games, we will get ripped apart and everyone will blame the manager.

Look at the games with 2 DM's, we have won most of them games.

Problem is when we play our traditional 2 DMs of Fred and McTom or Fred and Matic. Bruno ends up dropping deeper and deeper to get the ball to try and create something, as he knows the ball isn't being moved up to the front 4 quick enough. My point is, Fred, McTom and Matic just do not move the ball quick enough through the midfield. VDB does and he sees things and creates from deep. Bruno can stay higher up the pitch because of this. Also VDB is good enough to sit in there along with the other DM and do that job defensively as well when needed, so why would he not be played over McTom or Matic.

 

[Bilbo]

Yep, its become a lose lose situation for him. If he plays the same team and we lose its "he should of known we cant play without 2 DM's" or other way round "Why didn't he play same team as Istanbul"

He just needs to win games, whichever way he does it.

No even that's not enough. He needs to win games easily playing beautiful dominant football.

On the subject of Donny though, there were encouraging signs that he might just be able to push this team up a level playing at 6. If we can get that balance right, or just accept that we might be a slightly more open side with him there, then I am all for giving him a run of games. I would like to see how he looks next to McTominay instead of Fred though. I think Scott would be slightly more disciplined with his positioning than Fred is.

 

[Bilbo]

Problem is when we play our traditional 2 DMs of Fred and McTom or Fred and Matic. Bruno ends up dropping deeper and deeper to get the ball to try and create something, as he knows the ball isn't being moved up to the front 4 quick enough. My point is, Fred, McTom and Matic just do not move the ball quick enough through the midfield. VDB does and he sees things and creates from deep. Bruno can stay higher up the pitch because of this. Also VDB is good enough to sit in there along with the other DM and do that job defensively as well when needed, so why would he not be played over McTom or Matic.

All fair comments, but your last point remains to be seen. He is smart enough to play that position, but does he still have the instinctive passing we saw if we stifle his natural tendencies? We'll find out I'm sure. Its about finding the balance. With Fred & McT playing we do still create enough chances to win games while being a better defensive unit, so its a safer choice. I can understand if Ole had a reluctance to open this team up, particularly against certain opponents.

 

[romufc]

No even that's not enough. He needs to win games easily playing beautiful dominant football.

On the subject of Donny though, there were encouraging signs that he might just be able to push this team up a level playing at 6. If we can get that balance right, or just accept that we might be a slightly more open side with him there, then I am all for giving him a run of games. I would like to see how he looks next to McTominay instead of Fred though. I think Scott would be slightly more disciplined with his positioning than Fred is.

He isn't going to do that consistently though. Especially, when he is under immense fan pressure to do both. With 2 games a week, I do not expect us to play beautiful football weekly.

I agree there were encouraging signs, but there were also signs that we look vulnerable too, which should not be ignored.

 

[MetoTTT]

All fair comments, but your last point remains to be seen. He is smart enough to play that position, but does he still have the instinctive passing we saw if we stifle his natural tendencies? We'll find out I'm sure. Its about finding the balance. With Fred & McT playing we do still create enough chances to win games while being a better defensive unit, so its a safer choice. I can understand if Ole had a reluctance to open this team up, particularly against certain opponents.

Wow! ...I mean...really?

 

[Bilbo]

Wow! ...I mean...really?

Yes. Really. We dont create as many as we would if say Pogba or Donny were playing in a more more advanced position that one of them, but we do still create chances. Sometimes our strikers are super clinical, other times wasteful, but they rarely struggle for opportunities

 

[Godfather]

Have yet to see anything from him to convince me he is even remotely good enough

 

[Renegade]

Have yet to see anything from him to convince me he is even remotely good enough

He just gave a MOTM performance a couple games ago. He’s a couple
Nothing/safe performances alongside 10minute cameo’s.

 

[izec]

Have yet to see anything from him to convince me he is even remotely good enough

He isnt that good. And we are shit in possession, so he is basically pointless. He is invisible, which is no surprise considering where he played before (Ajax) and how he thrives. I said that in the summer as well but got laughed at.
We bought him and stick him to the 10 position and expect him to perform like previously, when he excelled in a very specific system. We are the opposite, zero team play and coaching and heavily reliant on individuals. He wont stand out there under Ole.

 

[Godfather]

He just gave a MOTM performance a couple games ago. He’s a couple
Nothing/safe performances alongside 10minute cameo’s.

Not in by book he hasn't. He's a passenger

 

[b82REZ]

Have yet to see anything from him to convince me he is even remotely good enough

The media fawning over him is strange to say the least.

No doubt a tidy player but he's hardly done anything to justify the amount of praise he seems to receive.

I don't think he's helped by being shifted around to accommodate Pogba, but I don't think the coaching staff know how to utilise him correctly.

 

[11101]

Beginning to worry me now. Yet again he didn't get into the game at all.

 

[Terranova]

Beginning to worry me now. Yet again he didn't get into the game at all.

Well he was set up to fail today and when he did, he was sacrificed. He should play at 8, that's his best position.

 

[Woodenlung]

There's no link from midfield to the forwards. I don't think VDB was the problem in that half. Our midfield pivot was far more problematic. I think he's a victim of the manager not having a plan other than relying on individual magic.

 

[Jibbs]

That is why I absolutely hate Evra. All his views are vile, opportunistic and agenda driven. They way he has criticized VdB for no reason just to protect his fellow Pogba is absolute disgrace. I hope he should be kept as away from United as possible.

 

[Renegade]

Not in by book he hasn't. He's a passenger

What’s your expectation of him?

His game is late runs into the box and keeping the play tidy with accurate passes. For me the manager has to utilise those attributes better.

 

[Red_toad]

Beginning to worry me now. Yet again he didn't get into the game at all.

Him and Pogba should have swapped positions, as neither are very effective in the ones Ole charged them with.

 

[Amar__]

I don't think he is playing well, but it's quite obvious that Ole has no idea how to use him either.

 

[VP89]

He wasn't good at the 10 today and Pogba was shit in the box to box. It's an obvious move to swap them or at least take off Pogba but Ole has done one of his specials, again.

 

[GMoore23]

There's no doubting he's a talented player and its still too early to be judging him but I'm getting a Kagawa vibe with this signing.
To me, he's an out and out no10 in a possession based team. We're nothing like that team.

 

[Yagami]

He isnt that good. And we are shit in possession, so he is basically pointless. He is invisible, which is no surprise considering where he played before (Ajax) and how he thrives. I said that in the summer as well but got laughed at.
We bought him and stick him to the 10 position and expect him to perform like previously, when he excelled in a very specific system. We are the opposite, zero team play and coaching and heavily reliant on individuals. He wont stand out there under Ole.

Said the exact same thing months ago and got ridiculed as well.

He's another Mata/Kagawa/Mkhi. Can't dictate games, can't play well unless the whole team does, isn't the type of midfielder who lifts the teams general play and team mates alike, is very weak, doesn't create, etc. He's a pass and go player.

We didn't need another midfielder like that, and wasted another £40m.

 

[slored1]

He hides a bit too much for my liking in that advanced position. Should play deep or not at all.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Young and learning and adapting to a far higher standard. Was cheap. Relax