I agree on football. It’s just so much faster. As far as music, not a chance. Off topic but I have a feeling Freddie Mercury and Robert Plant would sneak by in boot camp.
The PL is in decline
- Thread starter Nani Nana
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This is correct. The reason there aren't young players in the mould of Messi or Ronaldo coming through who routinely dribble past multiple defenders a game is because the quality of player is better on average, it makes it less fun to watch because players are generally faster, fitter and more disciplined from a diet and lifestyle perspective - it's all a bit more even - and then you have the big improvements in goalkeeping as well. Most teams can press now, all teams know how to sit in and counter effectively and it's why the role of the coach is becoming more and more important. Coaches with highly specialised or rigid tactical ideas have become the quickest and easiest way to improve a team - Ranieri, Conte, Pep, Klopp - all have completely different styles but they got their teams to function well above their collective level in the PL.
Think of the difference in defenders from when Ronaldo arrived at United, to if we signed him now - almost every full back is rapid, fit as a butchers dog and relatively technical. We've gone from G Nev to AWB for example.
Freddie Mercury was so talented though. Music really? I'm talking mainly pop/chart music, you believe there was more talent in the past? I love my 80s cheese but some groups/songs during the 80s (and even 90s) you hear better singers in the pubs nowadays (same with 70s). Most groups put together during the 90s was primarily on looks, zero to little talent hence why you hear nothing from 95% of them now.
I think all musicians who have hits nowadays you can see they are talented (whether you like the song or not) because they have to be or they wouldn't get signed up, with the internet and how people can just preform from their own homes via streaming, the talent pool is just that big and competitive that you have to really stand out to make it.
But i think once you get to a certain you get stuck in a certain era and you stay there and it's hard for your mind to be changed how good that era was (when it really wasn't), i think it's a similar story with football and people dismissing the talent that is around now compared to the past.
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Sorry not an 80s pop guy. Rock is my thing and there was more talent back then obviously since rock died in the 80s. Still waiting for the next Led Zeppelin and that isn’t happening any time soon.
If a 20 year old Messi played today he would look electrifying.
The reason to why no young player today looks as good as Messi is precisely because no young player is as good as Messi. That combination of acceleration, agility, technique and close control is once in a generation.
You only have to look at the 2006 World Cup list of players and realise football has declined compared to around that time in terms of star power.
Bayern right now are among the best sides we have seen for sure though. They could give any team of the past 10 years a game. Easily won the champions league last year in all honesty.
They can do everything attacking wise you want a team to do apart from maybe have a truly incredible wide forward. Yet they make up for that partially with two of the best wing backs we’ve ever seen.
I have never seen a United side reach the level they reached last year ever imo.
Bayern right now are among the best sides we have seen for sure though. They could give any team of the past 10 years a game. Easily won the champions league last year in all honesty.
They can do everything attacking wise you want a team to do apart from maybe have a truly incredible wide forward. Yet they make up for that partially with two of the best wing backs we’ve ever seen.
I have never seen a United side reach the level they reached last year ever imo.
Complete opposite, Premier League has never been stronger than it's now. We have the quality of managers and quality of players and Teams go stable and far in European competitions. 90s or 00s were nothing like that - the highs were high and lows were very low.
It hasn’t. If anything it’s even better today. The problem with looking back 10 or 15+ years is you just look at the names but not all those players were in their primes back then.
Nostalgia plays a big role with this. Most fans think that the quality of players they watched in their teens is better than what they see today. The element of magic reduces with the more football that one watch.
Also, there is so much more quality around these days that standing out is harder.
Also, there is so much more quality around these days that standing out is harder.
On average, the quality is probably better. But there's a lack of magical elite players that make you sit on the edge of your seat.
The first point is almost maddening. I'm still young but the world has completely changed, as a kid I was a nerd but was still easily spending 40 hours a week playing sports with most of it being in the street. I remember that we would even sprint on tracks just for fun. Now when I go to the same places, I see no one or after work hours people that are in their late 20s-early 30s. Where are the kids?
I would say the following is better these days: fitness, tactics and technical ability (as a whole rather than individual players; one example is full back where the players today are on average have much better levels in all three areas.)
However, there are problems with modern football. First is that we have very few mercurial players. This is down to three things in my opinion: 1) almost all are coached professionally from a young age so are a lot more functional- no longer do we get the kids that spent their pre-teens dribbling around everyone in the street/playground. 2) The systems employed by managers today are highly functional and do not allow for individual decision making. Essentially players are told to keep to their area and what to do in that area. 3) Social media and social mores of this era. Now days everyone wants to be a brand and appeals to as many target customers. This essentially means they end up being very bland.
Second is coverage. Football is now so accessible that we can all pretty much watch whatever game we want, when we want whilst there is also YouTube clips. On top of this there is a vast array of data/analytical break downs on players. This consequently means that no player can really build a mythological aura around them. In prior generations, people would only see a player from opposition teams via a MotD show, or if they were abroad at a WC/EC now, we all know who they are and what they're about from a very young age.
However, there are problems with modern football. First is that we have very few mercurial players. This is down to three things in my opinion: 1) almost all are coached professionally from a young age so are a lot more functional- no longer do we get the kids that spent their pre-teens dribbling around everyone in the street/playground. 2) The systems employed by managers today are highly functional and do not allow for individual decision making. Essentially players are told to keep to their area and what to do in that area. 3) Social media and social mores of this era. Now days everyone wants to be a brand and appeals to as many target customers. This essentially means they end up being very bland.
Second is coverage. Football is now so accessible that we can all pretty much watch whatever game we want, when we want whilst there is also YouTube clips. On top of this there is a vast array of data/analytical break downs on players. This consequently means that no player can really build a mythological aura around them. In prior generations, people would only see a player from opposition teams via a MotD show, or if they were abroad at a WC/EC now, we all know who they are and what they're about from a very young age.
On their tablets. My 6 year old goes to play football and he enjoys it but he has very little interest in actually watching football. It’s the apparent norm at his club through a few age groups
6 years old is a bit young to love watching football but to me the surprising thing is the lack of 10 to 15 years old playing sports in parks. As @Dave Smith said it seems that these sports are played in organized structures or they are not played at all. That difference is bound to completely change the way sports are played and I assume a lot of spontaneity and ingenuity will be taken out of them. IIRC it was one of the argument given to a question about why Joga Bonito disappeared in Brazil.
There was a point around 2005 when teams would just set up 4-5-1 and games would be decided by the odd goal.
The league is 'competitive' and managers are far more 'tactically' acute than before, but the standard of football has declined. I think what the difference to say a game in the late 1990s, was when the top two clashed it did feel like an event. The broadcasters now struggle to package top six clashes, and overcompensate with stats.
I think most of big clubs in Europe are weaker simply because of the inflated price of players. Nobody can afford a lot of very good players and it is a risky game for clubs to throw one hundred millions at one player. Revenues have incrased but a lot less then cost of a players. Add to that the insane salaries...
A lot of big clubs are in trouble money wise : barca, Real, Juventus.
Add to that that the talent pool is kind of limited. You can count great strikers on one hand...there is no really true wingers, great dribblers...that is probably due to the fact that the game have changed, the teams are more and more compacts and pressing as a team. But that formated a bit pure talent I think as players can less and less express themselves. Just look at the reactions here when a player miss a pass. Teams are more and more averse risk...but lets not forget every system of play has his limits, because it is a system and football is a collective game but it has always had his part of individual talents, and this talent is the beauty of the game.
A lot of big clubs are in trouble money wise : barca, Real, Juventus.
Add to that that the talent pool is kind of limited. You can count great strikers on one hand...there is no really true wingers, great dribblers...that is probably due to the fact that the game have changed, the teams are more and more compacts and pressing as a team. But that formated a bit pure talent I think as players can less and less express themselves. Just look at the reactions here when a player miss a pass. Teams are more and more averse risk...but lets not forget every system of play has his limits, because it is a system and football is a collective game but it has always had his part of individual talents, and this talent is the beauty of the game.
Well said, and that is already the case in professional football I think. The system of play is the obsession of everyone in football actually at the expanse of talent. Maybe that is why there is not a lot of great strikers, dribblers and wingers actually. It could kill the game as we like it...
It's not in decline. A lot of clubs have more money and are able to recruit and hold on to players in the transfer-market. On the contrary it seems to be more competitive and even-matched than ever before. You'll see the best managers continue coming to the PL if they can't get a job at Bayern, Real or Barca.
That being said. No Ronaldo's here at the moment. I think the league miss a couple of outstanding talents. Someone like Haaland and Mbappe could light the league up completely.
That being said. No Ronaldo's here at the moment. I think the league miss a couple of outstanding talents. Someone like Haaland and Mbappe could light the league up completely.
Nostalgia bias, ten years time this era will be the "good old days" the 30/31 season won't be able to live up to in the eyes of supporters.
The reason there's lesser standout's these days is because the physical and tactical demands are higher than ever before, anyone who can standout in this day (especially at CB and GK) deserve all the praise in the world and that includes parity to past counterparts! A lot of players who the present day bunch "can't hold a candle too" would be shadows of them self's in today's game.
The reason there's lesser standout's these days is because the physical and tactical demands are higher than ever before, anyone who can standout in this day (especially at CB and GK) deserve all the praise in the world and that includes parity to past counterparts! A lot of players who the present day bunch "can't hold a candle too" would be shadows of them self's in today's game.
It's probably similar to how it's ever been.
Just that people insist on always trying to say the current is the best or worst it's ever been. When the truth is like most things - in the middle.
Just that people insist on always trying to say the current is the best or worst it's ever been. When the truth is like most things - in the middle.
OP is the exact opposite of what you describe. Declining is different to hitting an all-time low.
Some of your posts don't really bear much truth though.
Fergie and Wenger have gone yes - but we have Jose, Pep, Klopp in there instead.
Teams have never spent more money. The difference is that smaller clubs can now welly 40-50m on a single player. How much did Chelsea spend this summer? And this is still in a covid year too.
How is Liverpool's cycle "over" when they're still joint top of the league despite their injuries?!
Football is cylical. And our teams are right up there with anyone in Europe right now. As we'll probably see from how deep into the European cup and Europa our teams go.
Where are all the dribblers who live for beating their direct marker?
Even somebody like Maximin isn't even that much of a dribbler though he can be exciting at times.
Even somebody like Maximin isn't even that much of a dribbler though he can be exciting at times.
I assume that a large amount of potential dribblers never got the opportunity to master their craft because they didn't play street football. Unless organized Futsal becomes a big thing in Europe, dribblers will be rare around here.
That's not a new thing. A few years ago there was a thing at the club and most of our young players didn't know who the Invincibles were, the most stand out being Oxlade-Chamberlain.
I don't think the league or football is in decline. It's just the game is so efficient and mechanical nowadays. It's all about fitness, workmate, organisation, being a well drilled unit and physicality in the sense of who has the most stamina. Even the attacking players try to maximise their goal output rather than the showman side of the game.
We should have seen this coming a mile away, football tends to follow the top stars of the previous generation. As Ronaldo got more mechanical and less of a dribbler, it was only natural that others would follow. Not to mention the obsession with the DLP (Pirlo, Busquets, Kroos, Modric) who passes the ball around the field with laser precision.
Another issue is that football is becoming a stats game and not just from a fan's perspective. Clubs analyse the numbers and try to make the players as efficient as possible. Thus the robotic nature of modern day football is only likely to increase.
Then there's the criticism towards flair players nowadays. Neymar starts to do a skill move to embarrass his opponent and you can hear the commentators tut-tutting already.
There's no fix for it, unless a new flair player comes up and inspires the next generation.
Simply not true. He would still be great but the highlight reel would be that small percentage harder to make - I don’t even think this is debatable because the improvement in sports science is undeniable.
All my life there has been a player coming through who is the heir apparent and is pushing the boundaries until now - there has been a gulf since Neymar who is nearly 29...I don’t see anyone in any league doing what Ronaldo or Messi did at their age.
While I think much of this is true I disagree with the part regarding the talent of the youngsters. There is nobody around currently who ranks where Messi or to a lesser degree Neymar and Cristiano used to be on the talent scale. Yes, it's harder to dribble past organized defenses nowadays, but it's still possible as those very players prove week in week out. And while Messi and Neymar are obviously better players now than they were when they entered the scene, their dribbling hasn't really changed or in Messi's case even degressed a bit.
There have been many praised youngsters in recent years, most notably Mbappe and the current flavor of the month is Haaland. But also Sancho, Felix, Dembele or Havertz. Sancho at times gives me Neymar vibes and Joao Felix has outrageous technique but so far they're still a tier below what Neymar offered at the same age. Regarding the rest of the bunch it was clear to me from the very beginning that they don't possess the same brillance as previous generations of prodigies. Still impressive but simply no gebiuses on the ball to the extent of Messi, Neymar, Cristiano or even Hazard.
This is a very, very good point. Football has become more collective and tactical since around 2008 and simultaneously less individualistic. There are less players who learned the basics "on the streets" but more who made their first steps in a coached environment.
The DFB for example has just announced a huge rebuild of youth football. It shall be less focused on team success and tactical aspects and more focused on individuals and their qualities.
And I think that's the case for many organizations. Although it seems as if guys like Pep and Klopp have been around for ages, it's still relatively new that such holistic systems like their's are being applied, and many clubs and associations seem to have made the (understandable) mistake in focusing on this trend and teaching systems to youth players.
However, even the best system is worthless if it isn't played by good players and the teenage years are the most crucial ones for the development of technique etc. Also, even the best coaches allow their attacking players some degree of freedom since attacks are always improvised to some extent.
I think in this context it's also worth pointing out that the best individuals in the sports' history weren't produced by the industry nations but often by rather poor countries like Brazil or Argentina. For all the professionalism in Germany's or England's or even Barcelona's youth academies, it is clear that the improvised and less regulated and professional environment of South America is better at producing footballers with genius level talent.
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@Zehner
One solution for organized Football could be to give more importance to Futsal and beach soccer during youth players formative years. If you take Rugby Union as an example, the same thing has happened but in the last decade you see more and more players spending time playing Seven Rugby which relies a lot more on creativity, speed and ball handling.
One solution for organized Football could be to give more importance to Futsal and beach soccer during youth players formative years. If you take Rugby Union as an example, the same thing has happened but in the last decade you see more and more players spending time playing Seven Rugby which relies a lot more on creativity, speed and ball handling.
Yes, that's a great approach I think. Guess the days of street football are over in Europe which is kind of sad but probably just progress, sonwe have tonfind other ways of covering those aspects of football. 5 or 7 a side matches are definitely great for training the technical dimension. But I think the new approach of the DFB is also important since the over emphasis on winning is probably what prevents players from trying theirselves out. Dribbling skills like Messi's or Maradona's can't be achieved if your coach constantly urges you to play a pass when possible. You have so much time to improve your decision making later on but the time to develop your technical skills is at youth level.
I think the current generation of top level talents suns that situation up pretty well. They're incredibly mature for their age while their skills are rather basic.
There’s no player even close to what Messi was in his early 20’s right now. Maybe Lewandoski on his day. He was a freak of nature nobody even comes close to his level or IQ on a pitch.
Messi is still the best player in the world when he can be bothered to play 12 years later. His peak was all the way back in 2012.
Not even close.
Arsenal, MUFC, MCFC, Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool all fail to win in a single PL matchday.
Must be a first.
Tiredness induced by European football or not, big 6 performances have been shambolic.
Must be a first.
Tiredness induced by European football or not, big 6 performances have been shambolic.
I guess the real action is the battle for the top four. No one can lay a finger on Citeh. 