The punishment for dissent should be revised

lex talionis

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
16,911
No, I'm not talking about the kind of dissent Mitrovic demonstrated yesterday. Violent conduct toward a referee should be punished harshly -- a straight red, his side down to 10 men and a lengthy ban of at least 3 matches, whatever is provided for under current regulations pursuant to due process and all that.

What I'm talking about is the routine badgering waged against referees we see all the time in various league, including at times by our own players. Normal dissent today is punished with a yellow card -- when it's punished, which is quite rare these days. But it's gotten out of hand and we see ridiculously disrespectful badgering of the referee all the time now. Barcelona has perfected this dark art, but they are not alone. But a straight red and going down to 10 men in all but the most extreme cases -- such as Mitrovic yesterday -- is admittedly too harsh, which is one of the reasons why we see dissent now having gotten out of hand. Players know this and calculate that the benefits of badgering the referee outweigh the consequences because they know there are no consequences.

Solution? Zero tolerance toward "dissent" -- the line being drawn prudently to allow for a mean look at the ref but no shouting at, hounding, hectoring or badgering (and while we're at all, no imaginary yellow cards either) -- but make the offense of dissent punishable with a straight red but allow the side to replace the player who was sent off. Dissent would not be overly punished for the side by making it go down to 10 men but the offending player would be sent off...and miss the next match.

Problem fukking solved once and for all.
 
Basically, if a player shows dissent to the ref, they should be made to do the equivalent of “community service”. They go and teach young kids in wheelchairs how to control a bouncing ball or knock it first time into a nearby skip.

But the true punishment is that this community service MUST be done during first team training time. So the player and his club are both penalized. Imagine Fulham players standing around waiting for Marco Silva to finish his community service before they can start training.

The community service would be recorded with body cams and live-streamed on the FA’s YouTube page. FA can charge a fee for those sad sacks that want to watch and donate the proceeds to chari-ee. Imagine fools paying $1 to watch Mitrovic showing kids how to chest a ball down and shoot straight at the keeper.
 
Only the captains of both teams should be able to approach the referee.

We can start there.

I believe this already happens in Rugby. Only the two captains can have dialogue with the official.
 
I'm more a fan of introducing temporary penalties for stuff like this (bit like hockey). Make it 15 minutes or so for dissent.

Obviously it's a bit problematic when punishing Barca as you'd end up 11v0, so you'd need a cap at say 4 players per team.
 
When refs make up rules as they go along, we can't expect players to be robots and not show any emotions.

Clattenburg said he didn't send off Spurs player because he didn't want to be seen as the reason for them not winning league (something like that), when that's the case how can players respect refs?

I agree with general point but if refs are gets away with so much so easily.
 
roonster09 said:
When refs make up rules as they go along, we can't expect players to be robots and not show any emotions.
Click to expand...

Agreed. In every sport referees/umpires get this god-like status in the rules and it can get really irritating when you see what they produce.
 
I think it's manageable for the pros, but getting out of hand for amateur referees. So it's more for the latter reason that I'd welcome a stricter "ref is off-limits" culture.
 
Waynne said:
Only the captains of both teams should be able to approach the referee.

We can start there.

I believe this already happens in Rugby. Only the two captains can have dialogue with the official.
Click to expand...

Yeah that’s generally the case, but the players are usually yelling things to the ref during play that can be hard to pick up. All in all though, they are far more respectful and the refs are much much less tolerant of dissent.

Stealing another couple of ideas from rugby would be the reversal of free kicks etc for dissent, not the end of the world but enough of a punishment that it would stop the badgering for yellows etc. I personally would find marching the free kick 10m up the field for dissent kind of funny and also somewhat meaningful. If you want to mouth off, you could be putting your team in a far more dangerous position at free kick time
 
roonster09 said:
When refs make up rules as they go along, we can't expect players to be robots and not show any emotions.

Clattenburg said he didn't send off Spurs player because he didn't want to be seen as the reason for them not winning league (something like that), when that's the case how can players respect refs?

I agree with general point but if refs are gets away with so much so easily.
Click to expand...

This shouldn't be an issue now with var.
 
I hate it when an entire team will surround the ref. However I don’t mind a player shouting at the ref in the heat of the moment about a decision. So long as it doesn’t escalate. Shows the players are heated characters and also that the ref has a backbone who can tolerate a bit of stick.

It’s like the rugby refs who are like “I’m going to send you off because you were rude to me just now hmph :(“.
I’m far more behind refs who can take a bit of stick but still keep a game from getting out of hand due. Keeps the players competitive imo
 
the ref should get a taser. they'll think twice about badgering when they see their team mate wiggling on the ground fm.
 
roonster09 said:
When refs make up rules as they go along, we can't expect players to be robots and not show any emotions.

Clattenburg said he didn't send off Spurs player because he didn't want to be seen as the reason for them not winning league (something like that), when that's the case how can players respect refs?

I agree with general point but if refs are gets away with so much so easily.
Click to expand...
I agree, at this point it’s got to work both ways. The sort of person who wants to be a referee, in general, is likely to enjoy being in control and be very egocentric.

I believe refereeing is getting more out of control than players since VAR they have been given even more license to be inconsistent and influence the outcome of games. I’m not just talking about big decisions either, although decisions not to review blatant penalties due to clear and obvious bollocks must infuriate players, it’s the smaller incidents that can actually influence the entire way a game is played.

Anthony Taylor has somehow managed to book twice as many United players over 42 games as he has our opponents. At a time when we’ve had such terrible thugs as Juan Mata, Dan James, Victor Lindelof etc managed by master Of dark arts Ole Solskjear. Worse than booking twice as many overall is the fact that over 50% of the games he’s reffed us he’s booked more of our players than opposing players. Only 17% of games has he booked more opponents.

Now people could look at every booking and say well they were yellow card offences....but the more influential factor will be the cards he hasn’t given. That allows our opponents to play the game a particular way as the ref dictates.

In the 50 odd percent of games that we have received more red cards from Taylor our win percentage is 53%, of the games where bookings were equal or less our win percentage is 76%. Make of that what you will but there can be no excuse for such a variance in the way he refs our games and issues yellow cards.

Now would be absolutely the worst time to give more god status to a group of ego maniacs who are getting more out of control than the players.
 
Refs should just enforce the current laws of the game (regarding dissent) but for whatever reason, they don't.

Makes it hard for me to sympathise with them to be honest.
 
duffer said:
Refs should just enforce the current laws of the game (regarding dissent) but for whatever reason, they don't.

Makes it hard for me to sympathise with them to be honest.
Click to expand...

Yeah, regardless of club/player it should be enforced from the start.

If he quite happy for them to get both teams at the start of the game, tell them that surrounding the ref/abusive language etc. Is an automatic yellow, if teams end with 8 players each or whatever for a while then they will soon learn.
 
The only current law that they do enforce 100% is the removal of shirt after scoring goal. The thing is with this one there is no debate, like, oh it was only half on or off, and to be honest the most ridiculous. There was a time when refs were told to book players for kicking the ball away, that started ok but now like rest of rules, sometimes they do,sometimes they don’t. The current laws don’t need changing just need enforcing consistently. Also European / International refs interpret laws differently.
 
duffer said:
Refs should just enforce the current laws of the game (regarding dissent) but for whatever reason, they don't.

Makes it hard for me to sympathise with them to be honest.
Click to expand...

I agree with this and I can't understand it either. The law is literally there, just enforce it and start booking players. If they did it properly for a few match weeks in a row and stuck to it, the problem would absolutely become much reduced, as managers would start bollocking players and telling them not to chance it.
 
berbatrick said:
Agreed. In every sport referees/umpires get this god-like status in the rules and it can get really irritating when you see what they produce.
Click to expand...
RedDevil@84 said:
Yup. More god like status for refs is what the game needs.
Click to expand...
You guys are talking about "god like" status but what do you suggest? That every time the ref makes a decision, they should have a sit down with the players and managers and debate whether the decision is acceptable or not? The ref's word has to be indisputable (except by VAR, but that's a different story) and he should be untouchable on the pitch, or the whole thing simply can't work.

Dissatisfaction with decisions can't be an excuse for escalating behaviour against refs. If they display incompetence, there should be a better system in place to evaluate, correct and, if necessary, demote them. Lack of transparency and accountability is the real issue, if you ask me, but that's something that needs to improve off the pitch, not on it.
 
I'm pretty sure the rules are already there for refs to do this, but once again it's the inconsistent application of the rules that is causing the problem.
 
I think we actually need to start working towards making match officials appear more human and relatable. That ref in Germany who overturned a booking for diving twice to give a penalty, that's what we need a bit more of. It took a lot of humility to do that.

The God like status they currently have gets on my nerves, especially when you see them make such ridiculous mistakes week in and week out. This is also the reason why the implementation of VAR has been a failure so far; the PGMOL are too interested in protecting the divine authority of the ref on the pitch. This attitude breeds nothing but contempt from the fans.

I'm not sure how exactly you do this...maybe mic them up? Invite them to explain their decisions after the game? Even if you don't agree with the decision, hearing them explain exactly how they came to it would be refreshing. Hell, just seeing them speak regularly would humanise them somewhat.

My hope would be that this would eventually reduce some of the pressure they feel and they'd actually start using VAR properly to correct themselves when needed, rather than this clear and obvious bollocks, which has just led to a cycle of refs never giving anything and VAR rarely intervening to correct them. Unless it's Casemiro, of course.

They also need to revise in game and post match punishments for players. For instance, maybe the option to sin-bin a player would help the referee? Especially to combat dissent. Or an option to send a player off that doesn't automatically lead to additional match bans? Even just different classifications of sending offs would help. There's no way some of these tackles we've seen recently that led to red cards were worthy of an automatic 3 match ban. Like Casemiro against Soton, it's more unlucky how he catches the player than anything. Missing the rest of that match would be punishment enough. These things feel really outdated sometimes and way too strict.
 
When I was playing football, one weekend I turned out for our old boys rugby team and was nearly sent off after 5 minutes as I kept shouting at the referee, because that is what I was used to doing playing football. I soon worked out that I had to change though, so it is possible.
We can learn a lot from rugby, both in terms of respect and also for the transparency of referees decision making. VAR and the referee need to be mic'd up at least for that part of the game and I think that would remove most of the frustration. The Stewart sending off England vs Ireland at the weekend, we heard the whole decision making process and whilst most people disagreed with the eventual decision at least everyone heard how it was arrived at.
Put that in place and I'd be happy to see players booked for dissent on every occasion it happens. Would make for a much better game.
 
Camera and mic the refs up. I'm sure most players that care about their image will clean up their actions if we can directly hear and see what they say to refs. Would also help explain the ref's processes when they make decisions.
 
duffer said:
Refs should just enforce the current laws of the game (regarding dissent) but for whatever reason, they don't.

Makes it hard for me to sympathise with them to be honest.
Click to expand...

I think this is a big problem overall. There are rules that for whatever reason aren't enforced because the game has decided to take the rulebook and bend it slightly. There are loads of unwritten rules about the rules and the game which isn't helpful.
 
SilentWitness said:
I think this is a big problem overall. There are rules that for whatever reason aren't enforced because the game has decided to take the rulebook and bend it slightly. There are loads of unwritten rules about the rules and the game which isn't helpful.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Goalkeepers falling to the ground for a lie down after they've caught a ball (but only if they're winning) is a new-ish one as well. Book the cheats and they'll stop doing it. It's maddening.
 
Waynne said:
Only the captains of both teams should be able to approach the referee.

We can start there.

I believe this already happens in Rugby. Only the two captains can have dialogue with the official.
Click to expand...

Whats the common phrase? Rugby is a violent game played by gentlemen, football is a gentlemans game played by thugs?

Referees in Rugby have so much respect from players, and they take absolutely no shit. Players in football treat the refree like dogshit most of the time.

I am genuinely wondering what on earth they imagine running up to the ref screaming their hearts out after a call is going to accomplish? "Oh damn youre upset? My bad G, let me just revise that call for you now that your loudness persuaded me to see the errors of my flute"
 
Tom Cato said:
I am genuinely wondering what on earth they imagine running up to the ref screaming their hearts out after a call is going to accomplish? "Oh damn youre upset? My bad G, let me just revise that call for you now that your loudness persuaded me to see the errors of my flute"
Click to expand...

They do it so they'll get favourable decisions going forward, not because they think the ref will change his mind.

Managers even do this before and after games. Ferguson was a master at intimidating officials for example, he was not dumb enough to think the ref would reverse a decision but he was smart enough to know it has an impact going forward.
 
Been saying it for years as regards captains only in rugby. How is it that a 6"7 and 22 stone giant of a man accepts the referees decision who is tiny in comparison. That's because it's indoctrinated and instilled from the age of 5/6 after that it's too late. We've all seen Sunday and Saturday leagues with players and parents confronting and hurling abuse at referees. Both verbal and physical confrontation.

It's a weekly occurunce to see players saying fk you or fk off etc to referees and linesmen and it regularly goes unpunished in fact it's the norm. Referees should be miccd up and decisions given or explained and captains only. In other words ' have a word with your number 9 , if I see or hear another thing it's a yellow card or one more tackle like that and he's off'.

Again grass roots it has to begin at 5/6 if it goes past that then it's gone forever. Foul or abusive language won't be tolerated on any level. So hellbent on racism and or LGBT issues but until such time the foul, abusive language and acceptance with decisions whether you agree or not then how can other equality issues have a chance to exist.
 
duffer said:
They do it so they'll get favourable decisions going forward, not because they think the ref will change his mind.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but agressively annoying me would make me immediately dislike you, not view things in a new light.
 
Tom Cato said:
I could be wrong, but agressively annoying me would make me immediately dislike you, not view things in a new light.
Click to expand...

Getting in your face would often make you less likely to do something that would cause me to get in your face. At least that's why players/managers get in the face of refs.

They don't do it because they think the ref will change their mind on a decision already made.

To be fair, sometimes players just lose their shit but more often than not, whinging and moaning at refs is done to influence their future decisions.
 
duffer said:
Getting in your face would often make you less likely to do something that would cause me to get in your face. At least that's why players/managers get in the face of refs.

They don't do it because they think the ref will change their mind on a decision already made.

To be fair, sometimes players just lose their shit but more often than not, whinging and moaning at refs is done to influence their future decisions.
Click to expand...

Like chavs yapping at bouncers at 2am, not fully realizing that if they keep that shit up they are getting consequences
 
JackRowley said:
The only current law that they do enforce 100% is the removal of shirt after scoring goal. The thing is with this one there is no debate, like, oh it was only half on or off, and to be honest the most ridiculous. There was a time when refs were told to book players for kicking the ball away, that started ok but now like rest of rules, sometimes they do,sometimes they don’t. The current laws don’t need changing just need enforcing consistently. Also European / International refs interpret laws differently.
Click to expand...
Same with diving. It's should be a yellow, but most of the time they just tell the player to get back up and that's that.
 
Just enforce yellows for badgering the ref and dissent generally. There are quite a few laws in football that are just ignored (goalkeeper holding the ball for max 6 seconds etc!).

Once players start getting two yellows and sent of for it frequently they'll stop. I'm all for audio from mic being broadcast as well so we can hear exactly what players are whining about.
 
Cry babies. Referees should be able to take those vocal attacks. Let them curse and swear. But no touching or physical harassment.

Just kidding. Bad example to the kids watching.
 
Ainu said:
Dissatisfaction with decisions can't be an excuse for escalating behaviour against refs. If they display incompetence, there should be a better system in place to evaluate, correct and, if necessary, demote them. Lack of transparency and accountability is the real issue, if you ask me, but that's something that needs to improve off the pitch, not on it.
Click to expand...
A chicken and egg conundrum. There is no accountability or a system that promotes active feedback on refereeing. The entire system is trying to stop people from complaining, by imposing fines on managers and players and bans for talking about refs.The refs can do whatever they want, and take all kinds of wrong decisions.

People seem to be equating the refs at grasroot levels to PL refs. The PL refs are protected a hundred times more, so much that they have become incompetent or openly biased. Their decisions are affected by media talk. They decide who is diving, which team should get penalties, what kind of fouls to give or not, depending on media talk. Some of them seem to be enforcing their own agendas in the games, for personal reasons. Clattenburg confessed to one or two.

Of course abusing the ref, threatening or laying hands on the ref should be penalized, but by asking players not to speak a word against refs in the game, that is giving way too much power for a job that already is protected in PL. Mic up the refs and broadcast it for starters.
 
sallycinnamin said:
Been saying it for years as regards captains only in rugby. How is it that a 6"7 and 22 stone giant of a man accepts the referees decision who is tiny in comparison. That's because it's indoctrinated and instilled from the age of 5/6 after that it's too late. We've all seen Sunday and Saturday leagues with players and parents confronting and hurling abuse at referees. Both verbal and physical confrontation.

It's a weekly occurunce to see players saying fk you or fk off etc to referees and linesmen and it regularly goes unpunished in fact it's the norm. Referees should be miccd up and decisions given or explained and captains only. In other words ' have a word with your number 9 , if I see or hear another thing it's a yellow card or one more tackle like that and he's off'.

Again grass roots it has to begin at 5/6 if it goes past that then it's gone forever. Foul or abusive language won't be tolerated on any level. So hellbent on racism and or LGBT issues but until such time the foul, abusive language and acceptance with decisions whether you agree or not then how can other equality issues have a chance to exist.
Click to expand...
I coached u7 and u8 rugby the last two years and there is a 5 minute session and the end of training where we go through the RESPECT details and what each letter stands for.
It’s ingrained into the culture right from the start. Its just not the same with football, even at u8 games there are parents having a pop at the referee.

RedDevil@84 said:
A chicken and egg conundrum. There is no accountability or a system that promotes active feedback on refereeing. The entire system is trying to stop people from complaining, by imposing fines on managers and players and bans for talking about refs.The refs can do whatever they want, and take all kinds of wrong decisions.

People seem to be equating the refs at grasroot levels to PL refs. The PL refs are protected a hundred times more, so much that they have become incompetent or openly biased. Their decisions are affected by media talk. They decide who is diving, which team should get penalties, what kind of fouls to give or not, depending on media talk. Some of them seem to be enforcing their own agendas in the games, for personal reasons. Clattenburg confessed to one or two.

Of course abusing the ref, threatening or laying hands on the ref should be penalized, but by asking players not to speak a word against refs in the game, that is giving way too much power for a job that already is protected in PL. Mic up the refs and broadcast it for starters.
Click to expand...
If you heard everything that was said towards the referee on a football pitch you’d have to show each game after the watershed!
 
damoley said:
Yeah that’s generally the case, but the players are usually yelling things to the ref during play that can be hard to pick up. All in all though, they are far more respectful and the refs are much much less tolerant of dissent.

Stealing another couple of ideas from rugby would be the reversal of free kicks etc for dissent, not the end of the world but enough of a punishment that it would stop the badgering for yellows etc. I personally would find marching the free kick 10m up the field for dissent kind of funny and also somewhat meaningful. If you want to mouth off, you could be putting your team in a far more dangerous position at free kick time
Click to expand...
That's actually a pretty good idea.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.