The RedCafe Boxing Thread

@endless_wheelies well how on Earth is that possible? Joshua is almost 10 cm taller than him so muscle alone won't do it. He'd need to get fat to add 20 kg to his body.
He's probably walking at 94-5 kg right now. He can easily add 10 kg in a year and be a competitive HW. It doesn't have to be all muscle. He's taller and has a longer reach than Povetkin, for example, and about the same as Haye, Whyte, Parker, Ortiz.

Of course he's not adding 3 stones.
 
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I just don't think he hits hard enough, nor can he stomach hits to outbox for a whole 12 rounds.

Still, let's actually wait to see how he handles a HW bout or two.
 
I just don't think he hits hard enough, nor can he stomach hits to outbox for a whole 12 rounds.

Still, let's actually wait to see how he handles a HW bout or two.
He'll get walked down and pummeled at HW. Needs to be much more elusive to bridge the gap in power and strength.
 
He'll get walked down and pummeled at HW. Needs to be much more elusive to bridge the gap in power and strength.
He is arguably the best cruiserweight since Holyfield, and Holyfield didn't do half bad on heavyweights despite fighting bigger boxers.

Sure, he is not Holyfield yet but Joshua and co. aren't exactly prime Lewis or Tyson.
 
He is arguably the best cruiserweight since Holyfield, and Holyfield didn't do half bad on heavyweights despite fighting bigger boxers.

Sure, he is not Holyfield yet but Joshua and co. aren't exactly prime Lewis or Tyson.
Holyfield was made of granite with a chin that is out of this world and a far superior boxer, he also had a build that carried mass across divisions easily. Granted, your point that even with Holyfield being an all-timer fighting other all-timers, it's a different playing field, but you still have to respect the power of these modern 230lb+ HW's.

Usyk would need his speed, stamina (punch output) and mobility to stay exactly where they are (which I doubt they will as he gains mass) whilst having an uptake in power, otherwise his skills won't be respected by guys who don't need to dance around when they can just trade and watch the smaller man crumble.
 
Really? Usyk better have levels of defensive and reflexive ability hidden away to go up and fight men who are genuine one-punch KO'rs.

The more weight he himself adds, the higher the chance of him being slower and less able to manoeuvre, plus his stamina will take a hit and he doesn't have the natural power to compensate.

He wants to go up, and he's got nothing to do in his own division, but it's another world entirely.

I don’t think he will pack on incredible amounts of mass, to be quite honest. I think that would be incredibly foolish. Usyk can never match AJ, Fury, etc for sheer size but the salient point is that he doesn’t have to. He’s in another dimension to the heavyweights in terms of mobility and most significantly, speed. Fluidity of movement and mobility are so prominent in combat sports these days. One only needs to look at the current UFC middleweight division to see it. Robert Whittaker and Kelvin Gasteum, two former Welterweights who kept their fluidity and dexterity and have caused all sorts of problems for much bigger men. Cain Velasquez/DC/Stipe Miocic are all fine examples of it being done at Heavyweight too. Current WBC champ Deontay Wilder weighed in around 215lbs for his fight with Ortiz.

I actually think Usyk is all wrong for Joshua. It often gets disregarded but Parker did a fine job of making Joshua miss, he just couldn’t land anything noteworthy himself. I don’t envisage Joshua landing on Usyk, especially when you consider that Joshua’s own words directed towards beating Usyk were “let him tippy-tap and then explode.” Apologies, but I can’t see a generational talent like Usyk getting taken out by that. I also see Usyk being able to get in and out against Joshua with relative ease after 3/4 rounds to feel him out.

Whilst this is all hypothetical, I also think that Usyk is all wrong for Fury, too. Fury, by his own admission, says that slippery and smaller fighters are his kryptonite. Case in point, Steve Cunngingham. We don’t need to compare Usyk to Cunnigham, as that would be somewhat redundant, but you get the point I’m making.
 
He's probably walking at 94-5 kg right now. He can easily add 10 kg in a year and be a competitive HW. It doesn't have to be all muscle. He's taller and has a longer reach than Povetkin, for example, and about the same as Haye, Whyte, Parker, Ortiz.

Of course he's not adding 3 stones.

10kg for sure. I wasn't arguing that.

10kgs put him around Povetkin's weight I think which is alright.
 
I don’t think he will pack on incredible amounts of mass, to be quite honest. I think that would be incredibly foolish. Usyk can never match AJ, Fury, etc for sheer size but the salient point is that he doesn’t have to. He’s in another dimension to the heavyweights in terms of mobility and most significantly, speed. Fluidity of movement and mobility are so prominent in combat sports these days. One only needs to look at the current UFC middleweight division to see it. Robert Whittaker and Kelvin Gasteum, two former Welterweights who kept their fluidity and dexterity and have caused all sorts of problems for much bigger men. Cain Velasquez/DC/Stipe Miocic are all fine examples of it being done at Heavyweight too. Current WBC champ Deontay Wilder weighed in around 215lbs for his fight with Ortiz.

I actually think Usyk is all wrong for Joshua. It often gets disregarded but Parker did a fine job of making Joshua miss, he just couldn’t land anything noteworthy himself. I don’t envisage Joshua landing on Usyk, especially when you consider that Joshua’s own words directed towards beating Usyk were “let him tippy-tap and then explode.” Apologies, but I can’t see a generational talent like Usyk getting taken out by that. I also see Usyk being able to get in and out against Joshua with relative ease after 3/4 rounds to feel him out.

Whilst this is all hypothetical, I also think that Usyk is all wrong for Fury, too. Fury, by his own admission, says that slippery and smaller fighters are his kryptonite. Case in point, Steve Cunngingham. We don’t need to compare Usyk to Cunnigham, as that would be somewhat redundant, but you get the point I’m making.
There's nothing wrong with the majority of what you've said, but we have weight divisions for a reason, and the reducer for all of his skill and technique can, and very probably would, come by way of a single exchange, and from there, having felt power he knows he cannot get hit by under any circumstances, you will have a fighter who either goes out on his shield, or has to adopt a complete fleeing tactic whilst hoping he can make it through twelve rounds of boxing some distance outside his weight remit.

Usyk would be like a Ruiz in that he'd be a 'heavyweight' who could only fight other 'heavyweights' whilst leaving the true heavyweights well alone, but we'll see, if he does make the step up.

re. weight in and of itself isn't the issue here, it's power. Wilder might be the same weight as Usyk if they ever fought, but he has ungodly power that forces every opponent he faces to respect him. Tyson wasn't a heavy guy, but he had ferocious hands, speed and raw KO power. Usyk isn't even a big hitter at cruiser; for these heavyweights he's expected to take on, his threat just has little reason to be respected and they will gladly exchange with him because it benefits them and badly compromises Usyk.
 
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There's nothing wrong with the majority of what you've said, but we have weight divisions for a reason, and the reducer for all of his skill and technique can, and very probably would, come by way of a single exchange, and from there, having felt power he knows he cannot get hit by under any circumstances, you will have a fighter who either goes out on his shield, or has to adopt a complete fleeing tactic whilst hoping he can make it through twelve rounds of boxing some distance outside his weight remit.

Usyk would be like a Ruiz in that he'd be a 'heavyweight' who could only fight other 'heavyweights' whilst leaving the true heavyweights well alone, but we'll see, if he does make the step up.

re. weight in and of itself isn't the issue here, it's power. Wilder might be the same weight as Usyk if they ever fought, but he has ungodly power that forces every opponent he faces to respect him. Tyson wasn't a heavy guy, but he had ferocious hands, speed and raw KO power. Usyk isn't even a big hitter at cruiser; for these heavyweights he's expected to take on, his threat just has little reason to be respected and they will gladly exchange with him because it benefits them and badly compromises Usyk.
Usyk may be a good fit because right now he’s a fairly small heavyweight struggling to lose those last few pounds getting down to Cruiserweight. There’s a fairly decent amount of “smaller” men that have gone and had decent success at Heavyweight.

Obviously one punch can change it all but he is very good at avoiding hits, at least clean ones and that’s likely to improve at Heavyweight where the fighters are slower and less skilled (IMO). Now it would be interested to see if they try to walk him down because his power isn’t huge but his movement, angles and footwork are so good he’s likely just to make Heavyweights look dumb. Outside of Fury (who doesn’t really hit that hard) all the Heavyweights have crap footwork.

I think the time for Usyk is the next 12-18 months as his athleticism and movement is the big advantage he holds currently. I’d pick him over any Heavyweight currently but with a bit of caution because of the difference in power.
 
Usyk may be a good fit because right now he’s a fairly small heavyweight struggling to lose those last few pounds getting down to Cruiserweight. There’s a fairly decent amount of “smaller” men that have gone and had decent success at Heavyweight.

Obviously one punch can change it all but he is very good at avoiding hits, at least clean ones and that’s likely to improve at Heavyweight where the fighters are slower and less skilled (IMO). Now it would be interested to see if they try to walk him down because his power isn’t huge but his movement, angles and footwork are so good he’s likely just to make Heavyweights look dumb. Outside of Fury (who doesn’t really hit that hard) all the Heavyweights have crap footwork.

I think the time for Usyk is the next 12-18 months as his athleticism and movement is the big advantage he holds currently. I’d pick him over any Heavyweight currently but with a bit of caution because of the difference in power.
You're pretty much asking him to fight the perfect fight every time out to bridge the gap; we're not even sure if Fury, a legitimate heavyweight, can do that in his upcoming contest with Wilder. There's also, from the outset, the need for Usyk to make these guys respect him, and not his movement and ability. They will gladly brawl with him and make things as ugly as possible because it favours them greatly.

I think, if allowed to, he can make fools of some of the HW's, but that intention from them to let him do so would be remote as they don't need to stand there, on the end of their jab, working him out and timing opportunities/openings when a simply step or two right into range does the same thing in a quarter of the time.

Re. the last paragraph: As stated before, he also has to bring exactly what he has with him and not diminish as he gains weight because if his stamina is compromised, combined with heavy hits and quicker fatigue via shot absorption (body) he could be in big trouble after the opening flurry of rounds. He's got a great jab and shot selection, but how much does it count for if his opponents are more trying to trade directly with him rather than respect it?

Technically and tactically it's a very different ball game for him than at Cruiser, where he is respected and his opponents are wary of his punches via accumulative damage, at the least.
 
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Soon

Cheers. Love it.
 
You're getting too hung up on the "3 stone" exaggeration.

The point was he could easily bulk up so as not to get "destroyed" by a Joshua as @RedNed77 suggested.

I’m with RAB on this. There’s a maximum weight you can carry for your height before you become musclebound. He’s not got the reach or the height to bother AJ, although I don’t think Joshua is infallible, he’d be far too much for Usyk.
 


Not sure what happened here but great news if Spence no longer hangs out with that muppet.

He probably sobered up and realized Broner is a twat who'll derail his career. Broner has already done that with Davis. Check out the footage of those three and the Charlos at the Garcia-Porter fight all acting drunk and dumb. A fan asked for a photo with Davis and Davis slapped his phone out of his hand probably breaking it. A FAN!

Spence made a fool out of himself getting up in the presser all drunk talking nonsense. He's probably wised up. Broner is a cancer and so too is Davis.
 
Mad that Davis is still only 23. What a waste of talent he could turn out to be.
I'm not sure how good the people around him seem to think he is. They were moving him slow and then obviously saw he's a loose cannon so looked to cash in and mentioned a Lomachenko fight to which he sounded terrified and said he wouldn't do. Now you've got the other fighters like Machado and Farmer wanting to fight him and he's trying to fight fighters two weight classes smaller coming off comprehensive losses. The fact the WBA or whoever it was demoted Machado who legitimately won the title off a good guy and defended consistently to create a gift wrapped belt for Davis to beat a two years inactive guy coming up in weight off a dominant loss shows he gets favors and short cuts.

My guess is that he's a bully and a front runner and is a million miles from wanting to test himself. I just hope his next promoter doesn't coddle him like this but then again he might just take himself out the game with his criminal activities outside the ring.
 
Tank Davis is a fighter and a puncher. Does need to shore up his boxing skills if he wants to make it to the top though. He’s gone way off the rails since just before his fight on the Mayweather -McGregor card.
 
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Fascinating fight between Mikey Garcia and Errol Spence Jr announced. Garcia jumping two weight classes to face Spence to become a five weight world champion, and looked tiny in the promo.

Thoughts @Inter Yer Nan @Kazi? Can Garcia pull it off or is he too small?
 
Fascinating fight between Mikey Garcia and Errol Spence Jr announced. Garcia jumping two weight classes to face Spence to become a five weight world champion, and looked tiny in the promo.

Thoughts @Inter Yer Nan @Kazi? Can Garcia pull it off or is he too small?
No chance. It's a sideshow type fight and I'm not sure why Garcia was so willing to do it (cashing out maybe?) and why Spence was so insistent on it.

Even the areas where you'd say a smaller man could have a chance like faster feet, movement, Mikey is probably slower in those areas than Spence and much shorter with less length.
 
No chance. It's a sideshow type fight and I'm not sure why Garcia was so willing to do it (cashing out maybe?) and why Spence was so insistent on it.

Even the areas where you'd say a smaller man could have a chance like faster feet, movement, Mikey is probably slower in those areas than Spence and much shorter with less length.
I see. Seems a bit strange why Mikey would look to lose his '0' like that - unless like you said it was financially motivated - but then would the Lomachenko fight not make more sense?
 
Fascinating fight between Mikey Garcia and Errol Spence Jr announced. Garcia jumping two weight classes to face Spence to become a five weight world champion, and looked tiny in the promo.

Thoughts @Inter Yer Nan @Kazi? Can Garcia pull it off or is he too small?
I do think Garcia has better skills than Spence, and I’m sure he believes in his skills and has absolutely no fear of losing his 0. But this does not look good for Mikey stylistically. When there is such a big size difference, you usually need some other physical/athletic advantage in your favour (like Manny had with his hand and foot speed). Mikey’s strength is his fundaments, his jab in particular. But I don’t see how his jab will be able to keep someone like Spence at bay.

The Loma fight seems tough to make as he is with Top Rank.
 
I see. Seems a bit strange why Mikey would look to lose his '0' like that - unless like you said it was financially motivated - but then would the Lomachenko fight not make more sense?
Harder to make because of the Top Rank thing and he’s very loyal to Al Haymon and hates Arum. He probably gets a bigger cut vs. Spence since Haymon tends to overpay especially if it means another promoter misses on a fight.

I don’t think Garcia is that passionate about boxing. You’d be surprised. I think he’s rolling the dice and will retire within a year or 18 months. Maybe losing to Spence he has an excuse because he was much smaller whereas if he lost to Lomachenko he couldn’t fall back on that. I think he’ll probably see Spence as being easier stylistically.
 
Harder to make because of the Top Rank thing and he’s very loyal to Al Haymon and hates Arum. He probably gets a bigger cut vs. Spence since Haymon tends to overpay especially if it means another promoter misses on a fight.

I don’t think Garcia is that passionate about boxing. You’d be surprised. I think he’s rolling the dice and will retire within a year or 18 months. Maybe losing to Spence he has an excuse because he was much smaller whereas if he lost to Lomachenko he couldn’t fall back on that. I think he’ll probably see Spence as being easier stylistically.

What a shame that would be. Been feeling pretty positive about boxing this year but is it really in great shape going forward? If the likes of Garcia, Davis, Pacquiao, Thurman, GGG are all gone in a year or two, is there much strength in depth and a deep pool of talent? And boxing might not be in the Olympics anymore.


I hadn't seen much of him before and i felt a bit underwhelmed given his build up.

I had only seen his previous fight against Gassiev so expected an easy win. Bellew did well early on but it was at Usyk's pace, which is a totally different level to anything Bellew has been at before, which is what impressed me. Usyk could have gone 12 rounds at that pace and stepped it up if needed. Bellew was gassed after 4/5 rounds and Usyk pulled him apart.
 
I see. Seems a bit strange why Mikey would look to lose his '0' like that - unless like you said it was financially motivated - but then would the Lomachenko fight not make more sense?
Harder to make because of the Top Rank thing and he’s very loyal to Al Haymon and hates Arum. He probably gets a bigger cut vs. Spence since Haymon tends to overpay especially if it means another promoter misses on a fight.

I don’t think Garcia is that passionate about boxing. You’d be surprised. I think he’s rolling the dice and will retire within a year or 18 months. Maybe losing to Spence he has an excuse because he was much smaller whereas if he lost to Lomachenko he couldn’t fall back on that. I think he’ll probably see Spence as being easier stylistically.
What a shame that would be. Been feeling pretty positive about boxing this year but is it really in great shape going forward? If the likes of Garcia, Davis, Pacquiao, Thurman, GGG are all gone in a year or two, is there much strength in depth and a deep pool of talent? And boxing might not be in the Olympics anymore.
There's a good crop coming through and I think a more exciting group. Josh Taylor an absolutely elite talent, there's Josh Kelly and Devin Haney who IMO are blue chip prospects, Regis Prograis is very exciting, we've still got years to come out of Crawford, Lomachenko, Usyk, Joshua, Inoue. Others are are at the good/very good stage moving closer to stardom like Callum Smith, Jose Ramirez, Teofimo Lopez is another exciting talent, perhaps Shakur Stevenson in a few years. Probably another crop of Eastern Euro's coming through.

Of the fighters you mentioned that's all a bit meh to me. Davis I couldn't care less about and hasn't done anything, Thurman has been a bore for a while and has been semi-retired. Pacquaio has been a sideshow for a while but he was a great, great fighter. Garcia I was a big fan as a prospect but pay him limited attention. Golovkin I am just sad he was avoided in his peak. The less fighters that sign up to Al Haymon the better. Haymon hoards talent, but the fighters barely fight and they marinate matches too long and don't even try to make fights with other promoters. The typical schedule is fight a "tune-up", then a "step-up" back to tune-up and then some inactivity and then maybe an interesting match. It's a shame because a lot of fighters I enjoy like the Charlo's, Danny Garcia, Badou Jack, Jarrett Hurd, Spence are under that umbrella and see themselves fighting soft touches too often or inactive too often whilst in their primes.
 
Nigel Benn and Chris Eubank have applied for boxing licences to hopefully fight within a few months.

Both in their mid 50s.
Must be broke.

I remember Jeff Fenech and Azumah Nelson did something similar a while back but that Fenech did him dirty. Nelson was under the impression it was an exhibition and was kept in the dark and then finds out last minute it was a real fight and Fenech had stitched him up trying to get “revenge” for the KO loss 15 odd years prior. Nelson only fought him because the purses (or at least his) were going to charity IIRC.
 
Must be broke.

I remember Jeff Fenech and Azumah Nelson did something similar a while back but that Fenech did him dirty. Nelson was under the impression it was an exhibition and was kept in the dark and then finds out last minute it was a real fight and Fenech had stitched him up trying to get “revenge” for the KO loss 15 odd years prior. Nelson only fought him because the purses (or at least his) were going to charity IIRC.
Yeah this one isn't an exhibition. They've been training for over a year and been trying to sort the fight for the last 2 years.
 
Must be broke.

I remember Jeff Fenech and Azumah Nelson did something similar a while back but that Fenech did him dirty. Nelson was under the impression it was an exhibition and was kept in the dark and then finds out last minute it was a real fight and Fenech had stitched him up trying to get “revenge” for the KO loss 15 odd years prior. Nelson only fought him because the purses (or at least his) were going to charity IIRC.
Benn hates Eubank to the core of his being; even if there's a tidy purse coming along with the bout, there's definitely the bad blood carrying the fight. As far as I'm aware Benn has goaded and wanted to fight Eubank since the 00's.

I always thought Eubank was somewhat indifferent to Benn in that he'd not back down from him, but could easily never speak of him again, even though he really doesn't like him. Eubank is always struggling financially, however, due to his ridiculous lifestyle and decadence, so a cash grab is probably more his motivation, although getting to smack Benn and potentially settle the score to the point Benn can't say anything again probably gives further incentive.

I can't believe there's a boxing board that will sanction this, well... I can actually, but the potential for serious injury with the way they both hit, the fact both have to be sparked clean out to stop (they're both relentless) and the sheer hatred from Benn's side, is abundantly clear. The postmortem inquest should anything go seriously wrong would be a spectacle.
 
Benn hates Eubank to the core of his being; even if there's a tidy purse coming along with the bout, there's definitely the bad blood carrying the fight. As far as I'm aware Benn has goaded and wanted to fight Eubank since the 00's.

I always thought Eubank was somewhat indifferent to Benn in that he'd not back down from him, but could easily never speak of him again, even though he really doesn't like him. Eubank is always struggling financially, however, due to his ridiculous lifestyle and decadence, so a cash grab is probably more his motivation, although getting to smack Benn and potentially settle the score to the point Benn can't say anything again probably gives further incentive.

I can't believe there's a boxing board that will sanction this, well... I can actually, but the potential for serious injury with the way they both hit, the fact both have to be sparked clean out to stop (they're both relentless) and the sheer hatred from Benn's side, is abundantly clear. The postmortem inquest should anything go seriously wrong would be a spectacle.
Yeah I don’t like the idea of it at all. Would hate to be the ref for that one.
 
Eubank v Benn is my first memory of boxing and their rivalry in the 90s is probably what got me hooked. Would hate to see them fight now.
 
Anybody just see the Yafai fight? Scorecard seemed too wide for my liking. Could see an argument for either result personally.
 
Just rewatching the Pacqiuao De LaHoya fight and I'd forgotten what a beat down happened in round 7. Rarely do you see a guy get so soundly taken apart in a top level fight. Should the ref have stopped it considering how one sided it was? Manny was a force of nature at his peak.