The relative strength of the Premier League

Pintu

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Sacchi‘s Milan are widely regarded as one of the greatest teams of all time. They barely won more than this Liverpool team.
Sacchi was there for 4 years, during which Milan won 2 CLs and 1 league... Capello took that side afterward and they added more major trophies. In a 7-year period they won 3 CLs and 4 league titles.. Klopp's Pool is nowhere near that.
 

FrankFoot

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Worrying how the number of English players being played is falling. We really don't produce many good players as a country.
Well, if you can import foreign players who are cheaper, kinda obvious that the number of english players being a starter will drop, especially in top teams.

English players are more expensive as they don't need to leave the country.
 

giorno

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He won 1 more European cup, and he was there only 4 seasons.
Because he was sacked. And so what? We're talking single season brilliance, over multiple seasons, not just trophies over time
 

FrankFoot

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Because he was sacked. And so what? We're talking single season brilliance, over multiple seasons, not just trophies over time
Trophies matters, if they didn't matter your beloved club wouldn't be sacking managers as soon as they don't challenge for the league or CL.

In the books, Klopp only won 1 league and 1 CL in 8 years at Liverpool.
 

Hammondo

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Well, if you can import foreign players who are cheaper, kinda obvious that the number of english players being a starter will drop, especially in top teams.

English players are more expensive as they don't need to leave the country.
That is true but I imagine we also spend the most on our training as well.
 

giorno

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Trophies matters, if they didn't matter your beloved club wouldn't be sacking managers as soon as they don't challenge for the league or CL.

In the books, Klopp only won 1 league and 1 CL in 8 years at Liverpool.
Of course trophies matter. But to reduce the historical impact and significance of a team to just trophies is just plain wrong. The dutch team of the 70s won nothing, it's still widely regarded as one of the greatest sides of all time and remembered more than the germany or argentina teams that beat them

Liverpool didn't win a lot because they were up against another historically great side in the league. In CL, well, they run into a team of destiny. I mean, they were on the wrong end of one of the greatest individual performances in CL history ffs :lol:

Bonus: their cycle got sidetracked by covid as well
 

ti vu

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Sacchi was there for 4 years, during which Milan won 2 CLs and 1 league... Capello took that side afterward and they added more major trophies. In a 7-year period they won 3 CLs and 4 league titles.. Klopp's Pool is nowhere near that.
And CL back in the day was only accessible by winning the league/the CL itself the season before. There was no margin of error for not winning. Klopp wouldn't have CL finals if being put under that such condition.
 

SirReginald

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Well, if you can import foreign players who are cheaper, kinda obvious that the number of english players being a starter will drop, especially in top teams.

English players are more expensive as they don't need to leave the country.
English players just aren’t worth the money.

Kalvin Phillips £42 mil
Stones £47.5 mil
Sterling £50 mil
Wan-Bissaka £50 mil
Ben White £50 mil
Ben Chilwell £50 mil
Kyle Walker £53 mil
Jaden Sancho £73 mil
Harry Maguire £80 mil

Less than half of those could be considered successes but most of them were inflated market values for the average player at the time of them signing. In the future you imagine Bellingham will probably top that list when you could find an affordable player elsewhere.
 

hasanejaz88

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And CL back in the day was only accessible by winning the league/the CL itself the season before. There was no margin of error for not winning. Klopp wouldn't have CL finals if being put under that such condition.
It's interesting to do a comparison. I certainly think it was easier to win the UCL during that time compared to today due to lack of bigger teams, but qualifying for it was obviously much more difficult.

Not easy to compare titles back then to now given how different the format is.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Trophies matters, if they didn't matter your beloved club wouldn't be sacking managers as soon as they don't challenge for the league or CL.

In the books, Klopp only won 1 league and 1 CL in 8 years at Liverpool.
I would say the CL is the hardest one to win and is worth at least a few leagues though. If they’re considered equal then Real Madrid at their peak were not a great team as they only won one league in 8 years. Same with AC Milan in the mid 2000s.

Liverpool were better than Wenger’s Arsenal teams for example in my opinion as they have the CL cherry on top.
 

Victorian values

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Worrying how the number of English players being played is falling. We really don't produce many good players as a country.
1979 FA Cup final had 4 English players in the Arsenal team and 3 in the United side.
What has changed is since the BosmanRuling, the formation of the Premier League and the game going "global", clubs are scouting the world for talented players and with the difference in money available, the top English clubs can now offer transfer fees and wages that even the second biggest German club can't refuse.
 

Hammondo

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1979 FA Cup final had 4 English players in the Arsenal team and 3 in the United side.
What has changed is since the BosmanRuling, the formation of the Premier League and the game going "global", clubs are scouting the world for talented players and with the difference in money available, the top English clubs can now offer transfer fees and wages that even the second biggest German club can't refuse.
We also have the most money to invest into training British players.
 

Victorian values

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We also have the most money to invest into training British players.
But sadly many of the schools have had to sell off their playing fields so kids (especially at primary school) don't get to play competitive football at an early age
 

KeanoMagicHat

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1979 FA Cup final had 4 English players in the Arsenal team and 3 in the United side.
What has changed is since the BosmanRuling, the formation of the Premier League and the game going "global", clubs are scouting the world for talented players and with the difference in money available, the top English clubs can now offer transfer fees and wages that even the second biggest German club can't refuse.
Yep, Northern Ireland, Ireland and Scotland have suffered the most. English footballers still present but there was a time when Scottish players were looked to in particular for flair that many English players hadn’t (John Robertson, Kenny Dalglish, Denis Law). Now they look abroad.
 

FrankFoot

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Yep, Northern Ireland, Ireland and Scotland have suffered the most. English footballers still present but there was a time when Scottish players were looked to in particular for flair that many English players hadn’t (John Robertson, Kenny Dalglish, Denis Law). Now they look abroad.
Yep, basically welsh, scottish, and
irish in players in PL were replaced with players from France, Brazil, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Africa, Portugal, Croatia, Scandinavia, etc

Check the FA Cup finals line-ups, until 1997, 99% of non-english players were from Scotland,Ireland, Wales, and Northern Ireland...past that year the numbers started to decrease as each year passes, to the point that nowadays you can barely find 2 scottish/irish/ welsh players in the 2 finalists teams, sometimes not even 1.

Scotland national team took the hit by a lot, as they look abysmal now compared to the 70s,80s, and 90s... haven't qualified to the WC since 1998.
 
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kaiser1

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Sevilla 13th in La Liga
Man Utd 3rd in EPL

Could have been 8-0
 

MexicanCowboy

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Sevilla were fighting relegation most of the season. The Premier League is the best league, but the difference is not as big as most of its fans think.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Sevilla were fighting relegation most of the season. The Premier League is the best league, but the difference is not as big as most of its fans think.
But also they're the Real Madrid of the Europa League, they can turn it on another gear in that competition.
 

Bepi

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Folks… cup competitions do not work like tit for tat… games must be won on the day, not on paper.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Folks… cup competitions do not work like tit for tat… games must be won on the day, not on paper.
Yep, 5th and 6th of Serie A are in the Champions League semi-finals after all.
Meanwhile miles ahead ahead of them Napoli are out.
Barcelona are running away with La Liga but couldn't get out of a CL group with 6th place in Serie A.
Meanwhile 13th place Sevilla are still in the competition.
The only German team left in Europe is 6th in Bundesliga.
Top in the Premier League lost to 4th in Portuguese league.
The best team in Portuguese league lost to 6th in Serie A.

Etc etc
 

Paul_Scholes18

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It is interesting right now. Serie A clubs is doing quite well in europe, but Italy missed the world cup.

Only City done well in europe this year.

It is quite tight between the leagues to be honest which seems odd. PL has more money I thought, but we see with Chelsea they just got worst after buying a lot.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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It is interesting right now. Serie A clubs is doing quite well in europe, but Italy missed the world cup.

Only City done well in europe this year.

It is quite tight between the leagues to be honest which seems odd. PL has more money I thought, but we see with Chelsea they just got worst after buying a lot.
Come to think of it they might be related as their players are fresher now? There's never been a precedent to compare to, a World Cup in the middle of the season like that. We had a few players with significant World Cups and they've got either injuries or looked fairly wrecked by now. Messi and Mbappé stole the show at the World Cup and then combine at PSG to barely even look like scoring a goal in the CL knockouts. Also Haaland is flying, no World Cup.
 

Andrade

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Folks… cup competitions do not work like tit for tat… games must be won on the day, not on paper.
Not on the basis of one season. But trends over a number of years are more difficult to ignore.
 

giorno

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Serie A now effectively half a point behind the PL in the coefficient for the season(Inter-Milan guarantees 5 points)
 

wangyu

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For me it is all about who ends up winning the European trophies and English teams often come short when it really matters.

Last season the Bundesliga, Serie A and La Liga nicely divided the trophies. The season before that it was Villareal and Chelsea and the 6ear before that it was Sevilla and Bayern. Just one trophy in 3 years? At this forum it is usually called a bottle job. Keep in mind that no league in the world spends as much money on transfers and fees. I would go as far as calling it an embarrassment for the English.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Not sure this is relevant the most important players of these clubs were all involved in the WC 1/4s or the final for some…
Fair enough - likes of Giroud, Hernandez, Brozovic did. Leao didn't play much though, Barella, Bastoni Tomori, Maignan, Bennacer, Mkhitaryan didn't play for example.
 

heraklion

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Yep, 5th and 6th of Serie A are in the Champions League semi-finals after all.
Meanwhile miles ahead ahead of them Napoli are out.
Barcelona are running away with La Liga but couldn't get out of a CL group with 6th place in Serie A.
Meanwhile 13th place Sevilla are still in the competition.
The only German team left in Europe is 6th in Bundesliga.
Top in the Premier League lost to 4th in Portuguese league.
The best team in Portuguese league lost to 6th in Serie A.

Etc etc
The problem is PL teams consistently underperform even when the PL has been at its peak and other top leagues are in a poor state.
 

giorno

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The problem is PL teams consistently underperform even when the PL has been at its peak and other top leagues are in a poor state.
Uh. Take away 19/20 given its nature(broken season), and since 18/19 you have 8 english teams reaching european finals out of 14....plus 11 SF out of 28...that's hardly underperforming

They underperformed this season, in EL, that's it
 

André Dominguez

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Sacchi‘s Milan are widely regarded as one of the greatest teams of all time. They barely won more than this Liverpool team.
They played a high press and forward thinking playing style and the offside law had to change because of Sacchi. Titles are not everything.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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since 18/19 you have 8 english teams reaching european finals out of 14....plus 11 SF out of 28...that's hardly underperforming
It depends on how you look at it.

The PL teams that have reached EL semifinals since 18/19 are: Manchester United (x2), Chelsea, Arsenal (x2), West Ham.

Two of those clubs are really CL-level; Arsenal were borderline one of those years. Getting 1 EL win from having multiple CL-level teams in the competition isn't ideal, IMO.

The same applies to La Liga, really. Not winning an EL when you have Barcelona there twice and Sevilla would not be great.
 

antk

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At least the doom and gloom tone of PL-centric posters about the ever-decreasing level of other leagues can be postponed another year.
 

adexkola

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English players just aren’t worth the money.

Kalvin Phillips £42 mil
Stones £47.5 mil
Sterling £50 mil

Wan-Bissaka £50 mil
Ben White £50 mil
Ben Chilwell £50 mil
Kyle Walker £53 mil

Jaden Sancho £73 mil
Harry Maguire £80 mil

Less than half of those could be considered successes but most of them were inflated market values for the average player at the time of them signing. In the future you imagine Bellingham will probably top that list when you could find an affordable player elsewhere.
Successes I'd say...

Notice a pattern? Jesus :annoyed:
 

Woziak

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Successes I'd say...

Notice a pattern? Jesus :annoyed:
AWB is in the maybe bracket but United’s ability to ruin a player and at the same time buy an average player but pay double his market value is very worrying.
 

Mr. Robot

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At least the doom and gloom tone of PL-centric posters about the ever-decreasing level of other leagues can be postponed another year.
Well, not really.

Crap / average teams can win the Champions League / Europa League.

Liverpool in 2005.

Chelsea in 2012.

Was the Premier League the strongest league in world football on those two occasions? I don't think it was.

Real Madrid in 2022. Was LaLiga the strongest league in world football last season? Not a chance.

You can't measure the strength of the league by using a knock-out competition as the barometer. Was Wigan Athletic a good side in 2013? No. But they won the FA Cup.

Was Portsmouth a good side in 2008? No. But they won the FA Cup.

Etc.