I'm not sure Wanyama will be plugging anything considering he's going to be vying with Dier for a starting slot. More likely Jansson will slot in somewhere considering how attacking Alli is. Not sure who will replace Dembele but pushing Dier forward would not be an option for me.
The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned
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I agree and that is where Spurs still need to prove themselves. Thing is they are seldom in the CL and they don't seem to take the EL seriously so we never really got to see how Spurs can manage two important competitions consistently. Maybe this season will give us a glimpse of that.
Dembele will be a big miss for them, bigger than Alli who I feel is overrated by many on here. Without Dembele they need to find someone to control that midfield for them and currently I don't see anyone in their squad who can do that.
They recovered well under Hiddinck with a 7-10-2 PL record and included 0-0 & 1-1 vs United, winning 1-0 at Arse, 2-2 H to Spurs and 1-1 draws with Liverpool (A) and Leicester (H) plus a 5-1 win over City in the FAC. With Conte in charge and a revamping of the team (which was never poor anyway - just blame Mourinho for their early season demise when he lost the team), plus no Euro football to derail them, I have them as pre-season favourites for the title.
They did alright under Hiddink but it still wasn't top 4 form. Good point about the European football though, I forgot they didn't even qualify for the EL. Liverpool and Chelsea might both benefit from that.
I mention Moyes because both of the times that United have failed to reach top 4 (under Moyes and LvG), one of the excuses rolled out has been that the squad "under-performed", which is of course convenient for fans because it allows belief in the players' "true" abilities to be maintained and thus to shift more of the blame onto the managers.
To answer your first set of questions:
Did United under perform last season? No. You finished in 4th the previous season and 7th before that, so finishing 5th last season was no great surprise.
Did Chelsea under perform last season? Yes, because the discrepancy with the previous season - a drop of 9 places - was just too vast to say otherwise.
Did City under perform last season? I don't know - it's hard to know either way.
Did some Spurs players over performed last season? No. And I think most of them will improve further this coming season. The squad contains more talent than you're willing to credit.
Your 2nd set of questions are not relevant, because the first two concern pre-season predictions and are not to do with under or over performing (e.g. just because Alli became an integral part of the first XI does not mean he was "over-performing" - why can't it be because he actually has the required talent?), and the last two questions are not relevant because what counts is where a team finishes in the league, not where they were in November or January.
Finally, where have I gone "around bragging as though [Spurs were] dominant right from the start of the season"? The answer is that I haven't.
Spurs only lost once against Man United, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal last season. Which was the opening day, will do extremely well to get near the same points return in those games next season as all bar maybe Arsenal will be much stronger this season.
You may be right. However, we still have Bentaleb, who, if he can fulfil the promise he showed the season before last, might fill the breach (for much of last season he was out through injury, and for the rest of the time his attitudinal response at being dropped from the first XI wasn't great).
Or else we could drop Alli back to play in CM with Dier and shift Eriksen back to central attacking mid (but we can only do that for the last two of Dembele's suspended 4 games, because Alli himself is suspended for the first 2).
But in any case we need a good plan to cover for Dembele's absence at any time during the season. The ideal here would be to sign Goetze, because then Alli would just drop back to play alongside Dier (making a perfectly fine CM duo IMO), Eriksen would play central AM, with Goetze and Lamela either side of him all behind Kane (or perhaps Eriksen left and Goetze central - either would be good).
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Apologies if you've already answered but how do you see Janssen fitting in? Just back up to Harry Kane? Because he's young and has a good goal scoring record.
I guess my question is- if Vincent Janssen comes in and hits the ground running, then how do you reckon Pochertino would accomodate him into the team? Play 2 strikers? But then where does Delle Alli fit, you'd have to move him deeper, plus obviously Eriksen gets pushed wide without having a #10 to swap positions with. Plus, if Delle Alli moves deeper, you'd have to sacrifice one of Dier and Dembele, not to mention Wanyama. Also, would Pochettino take the risk of playing 2 strikers and losing numbers in midfiels vs say, a Guardiola side? I suppose he could play a back 3 with Dier moving back, but has Pochettino ever experimented with a back 3? Could you see maybe a midfield diamond? You certainly have the full-backs for it.
Offtopic... but edited my post with our stats. Grim reading.Key Passes of Manchester United??? - I doubt we had over 100
Your questions are all good, but to be honest I don't know the answers. My best guess would be that Janssen is there to cover for Kane, with Spurs continuing to play 4-2-3-1. This is because it's a formation that's worked well for us and all the players know it well.
But if Janssen hits the ground running, when he gets the chance to play, then Poch has problem (a good one) to think about. Of course he'd have to do really well to displace Kane, but never say never, and Pochettino is certainly ruthless enough to drop Kane if merited.
I don't see us playing with two strikers (or not unless we're chasing a game that we need to score in, with say 20 mins to go), although a diamond formation is perhaps the most likely if we did.
Nor do I see us playing with a back three, although I think Poch did experiment with this in pre-season games last summer, and I think (can't remember clearly) he may have switched to a back three in a couple of games last season when we were chasing a game and injuries occurred in other positions during play.
What would happen to Son? Is he going to be sold?
I hate this term "back-up". No Janssen isn't a "back-up" he will be a rotation striker the same as Kane will be. Spurs played close to 60 games last season, Kane played almost all of them and was totally knackered by end of season. It's not about "back-ups", it's about squad depth, they will both have plenty of games to play. I guess Janssen will start on the bench initially and be introduced slowly to acclimatise, but he's not coming to play "second fiddle" forever.
Janssen will likely be backup to Kane as you say, but Kane needs more rest this year, so Janssen should get plenty of time. Plus he has an excellent work rate and experience out wide in his youth days, so he could also be an option to play instead of Lamela at LWF in some matches. Historically Poch liked to mix up how many strikers he plays and where he plays them when he was at Southampton sometimes playing J. Rodriguez, Lambert, and Osvaldo at the same time. Alli has done well playing in this sort of role, making runs from the left and constantly switching with Eriksen on who plays mid and who plays left.
We've only played a back 3 against Watford with mixed success. It worked tactically, but they did get one lucky break of a goal from Ighalo which was their only chance of the game. We created many chances, but just couldn't finish until Son scored his jumping backheel last minute winner.
Alli can play deeper and we've seen some success with him and Dier together. Also while Dier and Wanyama sounds too defensive Wanyama can likely play a water-carrier role similar to Dembele, receive passes, and hold off opposing players with his strength and lay off to a better attacking mid option. Very similar to what Dembele does except Dembele is an exquisite dribbler.
I also agree about the diamond being an option. It seems to make sense given Poch's tactics and philosophy, at least on paper.
Overall we've got some options everywhere it seems and some ability to play a little mix and match.
@GlastonSpur
So what part of the blame for Portugal's goal rests with LLoris? Surely Neuer, De Gea, Courtouis would not have been beaten from 25 yards away.
So what part of the blame for Portugal's goal rests with LLoris? Surely Neuer, De Gea, Courtouis would not have been beaten from 25 yards away.
Very little blame.
First of all Pogba is standing around like statue (like he did for much of the game), too far away from the Portugal player with #8 on his back, then he reacts half-heartedly and in the wrong way when he sees the ball played to that player (he initially tries to move towards the player instead of closing down the corridor for the pass into Eder). Then Koscienly is outmuscled by Eder, who twists to his left and gets free. Then the other French defender doesn't move forward to close down the space/shot, but just backs off. Then the shot is a fine one, aiming right into the corner at pace. And finally Lloris may well have been a bit unsighted (had his line of sight to Edur partially blocked) by the same defender.
The key fault lies with the French defender, but some shots are just very good and very difficult to save,
He's closely marked by Koscielny, breaks the tackle, faces Umtiti and lets rip from 25 yards.
How is Pogba at fault? Lloris should have done better.
https://my.mixtape.moe/tcuhpr.mp4
How is Pogba at fault? Lloris should have done better.
https://my.mixtape.moe/tcuhpr.mp4
I've already described Pogba's mistakes in the build-up to the goal. The video clip you've given doesn't really show this. This clip from the BBC does: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36760784
So you are saying Neuer, De Gea, and Courtouis have never been beaten from 25 yards? What a load of crap. EVERY goalkeeper is beaten from long range occasionally, even further than 25 yards.
What is the point of this post other than to try and goad a response? Top trolling.
No way De Gea would have, it was a very poor effort from LLoris.
Gotta love Glaston blaming Pogba of all players for that goal.
If anyone that could be blamed for that goal, it should be Koscielny. He should have fouled Eder to stop him from pulling the trigger.
If anyone that could be blamed for that goal, it should be Koscielny. He should have fouled Eder to stop him from pulling the trigger.
I dont like saying it but i cant remember when Neuer was beaten from this distance. In addition, he was not beaten from a freekick since years i guess. He is fecking good, its a pity.
Stop fueling an obvious troll please - it was a great strike that could have beaten any of the GK's mentioned, whether Lloris could have saved it or not is a matter of opinion but overall it is entirely pointless to talk about a single incident when making a judgement on any player - Neuer, De gea, Courtouis, etc. have all made mistakes in the past.Gotta love Glaston blaming Pogba of all players for that goal.
If anyone that could be blamed for that goal, it should be Koscielny. He should have fouled Eder to stop him from pulling the trigger.
I'm starting to see a pattern when it comes to discussion on Spurs on this site and it mostly revolves around certain posters trying to annoy people.
I like that Spurs want to play good football, different to other Pl clubs. But i was really dissappointet from their EL performances, being the 2. of the PL and show such a bad performance. How is that seen in the eyes of a / the Spurs fans? And another question: what do you think of Son, who cost you 30 Mio € ?
I think that we probably didn't have the squad depth to cope with fighting for league and EL - there seemed to be a decision made when it looked like we had a real shot at the title to basically forget about the EL (which showed in the team selection and attitude of the players in the later stages of the competition) - I was disappointed that we didn't give the EL a proper go last year but I could understand the reasoning. The performance vs Dortmund was embarrassing. We are focusing on improving squad depth during this transfer window which is badly needed imo as we will (I hope) take the Champions League very seriously and also be pushing for a good league position. Lets be honest, if we want the club to improve and become one of the big boys we need to be able to cope with playing 3/4 competitions.
Son was superb for us at the start of the season and we all thought we had a real player on our hands but then he got injured. He seemed to lose confidence/form on his return to fitness and never really got a regular run in the team after that. It is always hard to judge a player who not only comes from playing in a different league but who is also from a very different culture, takes time to settle and I'd like to think that most Spurs fans are willing to give him more time to prove himself. Having seen a little of him in Germany he looked like an effective player and I still think he will be a very good squad player for us but I'm not convinced he will be a first choice starter (am happy to be proved wrong though). It is a similar situation to Lamela who really struggled to find his feet for the first 2 seasons with us really but he has turned it around and has become one of our core players in the squad - maybe it will be the same with Son.
For those interested, here's a good, recent interview with Pochettino, talking about Spurs, Maradona, Bielsa, the Argentinian national team he played in, Southampton and more:
http://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/vide...on-maradona-and-a-famous-penalty-2811668.html
http://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/vide...on-maradona-and-a-famous-penalty-2811668.html
If Neuer hasn't been beaten by a free kick for years, that may say more about the quality of the free kicks rather than the quality of Neuer. I'm not doubting Neuer is a top rate keeper, that's indisputable, but he's human and therefore not perfect.
Don't you think the mistake he made can weigh on his fragile mind for the rest of his season?
You could see Griezmann's head drop after that miss in the 65th minute. Is Lloris made of tougher stuff?
Stop trying to bait Glaston/other Spurs fans. This should be for serious discussion. Final warning. Any more will see threadbans enforced.
@balaks: thx for the post!
After the two horrendous mistakes De Gea made in the Euros, one against Croatia and one against Italy, I would keep quiet if I were you.
"Did everyone else under perform? Use points, league position to get my point across.
Did Spurs over perform? No. Because I say so."
What?
Your post is factually incorrect. I did not say that "everyone else" underperformed. Arsenal and Liverpool, for example, were not mentioned, I said that United did not underperform, and I said that I didn't know concerning Man. City, despite their drop in league places.
As for Spurs, Chelski's obvious underperformance left a clear vacancy in the top 4, achieving which did not require "over-performance" from Spurs to fill because:
(a) It was always likely that the team under such a focused and bright manager as Pochettino would improve after his first season with us: more time to coach the squad, more time to assess the squad, more time to further improve its fitness, and more time in the summer to make changes to its personnel, including the key arrivals of Alli and Alderweireld, plus the deployment of Dier as DM.
(b) With United - a key rival for a top 4 slot - it was already clear that LvG was over the hill, with no coherent plan, chopping and changing every which-way, and terrible when to came to engendering team spirit. Spraying money around enabled United to finish 4th the previous season, but with the expected improvement of Spurs and the surprise emergence of Leicester, this was never likely to be enough by itself for a repeat top 4 finish. So United's disjointed squad finished where I expected them to finish - below Spurs.
You mentioned how United didn't underperform based on the league finishes of the past. You then mentioned how Chelsea underperformed based on their previous league finishes. But when it came to Spurs, you judged them entirely on your opinion instead of historical evidence. See below.
There is really no consistency in your measure of under/over performance but here's my attempt to quantify Man Utd vs Spurs based on previous seasons, since your post lacked a bit of objectivity.
Last season Spurs finished 3rd and Man Utd finished 5th. Average league positions:
Last 2 years:
Man Utd: 4.5
Spurs: 4
Last 3 years:
Man Utd: 5.3
Spurs: 4.6
Last 5 Years:
Man Utd: 3.8
Spurs: 4.6
Last 10 years:
Man Utd: 2.5
Spurs: 5.6
Sure, if you solely look at last 3 years, your assessment of United being where it's supposed to be is right, but in any other form of historical comparison United has underperformed.
On the other hand, every bit of historical evidence proves that Spurs overperformed and it will be no surprise if you guys end up 4-5 in the league next year.
I am just saying, if your going to compare teams, you have to use the same yard stick.
I think to prove your point you need to change teams, glaston makes a good point that we didn't really improve under lvg in either season, city 100% under performed he can't say he doesn't know because they certainly did.
I do think Spurs over performed, Alli was one of the worst players for me at the euros, Kane was a bag of nerves but obviously a few players under performed.
If city United arsenal Chelsea perform to their expectations this season Spurs won't finish top 4 for me, but as we've seen the premier league is all over the place so that is far from certain
We began by talking about over or under performance in the various squads as they were last season didn't we? It doesn't make sense to look back 5 or 10 years as a yardstick for under or over performance last season, because the squad-compositions were all very different 5 or 10 years ago.
So I'm saying that the quality, coherence and balance of the United squad last season had declined compared to 5 or 10 years ago ... to the point where it wasn't a great surprise to see you finish outside the top 4. Thus I'm also saying that finishing 5th was not because United under-performed, but rather because it was a fair reflection of that decline in squad quality, coherence and balance.
However, that obviously doesn't mean you won't improve the squad this summer or can't regain top 4 again this coming season..
Of course we are talking about last season but you comparisons of last season to previous seasons are all inconsistent.
You used league finishes of last 3 seasons for United, 2 seasons for Chelsea and 0 seasons for Spurs. That's what doesn't make any sense to me.
If you use last 3 seasons' results, Chelsea underperformed, we were par and Spurs overperformed.
Looks like Vincent Janssen will be announced tomorrow morning.
Really pleased with the business. DM and striker depth were the two main issues and we've addressed them quickly. Everything from here on out in the transfer window is basically extra in my mind. Although I would like to hear about new contracts for Eriksen, Lamela, and Vertonghen at some point as they have two years left on their deals.
Really pleased with the business. DM and striker depth were the two main issues and we've addressed them quickly. Everything from here on out in the transfer window is basically extra in my mind. Although I would like to hear about new contracts for Eriksen, Lamela, and Vertonghen at some point as they have two years left on their deals.
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