The team/Fergie bottled it after the red

[Adebesi]

I don't blame you.

Just to be clear tho to anyone nodding with agreement at that point, I reiterate what Plech said last night. Nobody is saying we sh/would definitely have won. It's not the result being questioned. It's the collapse in confidence, the total and immediate reversal of fortunes. We could have dealt with it much better and still lost, in which case this thread might not exist, certainly if it did my posts in it would be very different.

 

[Isotope]

It's obvious Rooney should've came in early, after their first goal. He should be the one up top, as he was fresh, and RvP looked spent. Also, Cleverley has never been suited to defensive setup (as we did, when we're one man down). Giggs is so much better defensively than him. So Giggs should move central as soon as we changed to total defend.

After the sending off, they pressured us relentlessly (with the help of Modric). And at one time, van Persie had a ball on our deep end, and just hoofed it to no one up front. I thought that their 2nd goal was just a matter of time, since RvP did that.

I'm afraid that Fergie made a tactical blunder with 'a little' too late subs after their 2nd goal. He just looked tense and lost on the sideline.

 

[LR7]

I think the key part of what SAF said has been overlooked. He said:

“It cost us the game because if you get a player sent off and he deserves to be sent off the reaction from your players is, 'Oh, you stupid bugger’. But you still don’t lose your composure.’’
United’s minds were so scrambled by what they saw as injustice that they failed to concentrate. “We lost our composure for that 10-minute period. We were all over the place.’’

It seems it was the nature of the red card. Would a normal red card faze Giggsy to the point where he said he's never felt that shocked on a football pitch? I doubt it. He's been through everything Giggsy, yet this shocked him the most in his 23 seasons. If Giggsy felt like that imagine how Tom, Danny and Rafael felt who are inexperienced compared to Giggs. For a clue look at Cleverley's face when Giggs is talking to the referee in the 5th pic on this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...gend-Champions-League-defeat-Real-Madrid.html

That picture says a lot.

I remember someone saying in an old interview that the team do practice playing with ten men just in case there is a red, so I don't think being unprepared is the issue here. I just don't think you can prepare for the "shock" that SAF and Giggs described. I bet it's something SAF will attempt to address though, having been through this experience will help.

 

[Siorac]

With all due respect to Sir Alex and the players, I can only sincerely hope that excuse is bollocks and just that, an excuse.

It was a very harsh red card indeed but treating it as the biggest injustice ever is the kind of victim mentality we regularly laugh at when Liverpool are concerned. Nani's foot was high up and he ended up planting it in Arbeloa's waist. It's not like it was some outrageous dive or the kind of inch-perfect fair tackle like Ferdinand's against Newcastle last season where they got a penalty out of it.

So yeah, I very much hope we did not lose the tie just because the players felt sorry for themselves. There might have been an element to that, heads seemed to drop but I still feel that what caused by far the most damage was not reacting to the Arbeloa-Modric substitution.

 

[SteveJ]

Every year football fans & players moan about CL refs penalising British teams for this kind of offence; isn't it about time CL and PL rules/guidelines were bought into line?

 

[ArmchairCritic]

With all due respect to Sir Alex and the players, I can only sincerely hope that excuse is bollocks and just that, an excuse.

It was a very harsh red card indeed but treating it as the biggest injustice ever is the kind of victim mentality we regularly laugh at when Liverpool are concerned. Nani's foot was high up and he ended up planting it in Arbeloa's waist. It's not like it was some outrageous dive or the kind of inch-perfect fair tackle like Ferdinand's against Newcastle last season where they got a penalty out of it.

So yeah, I very much hope we did not lose the tie just because the players felt sorry for themselves. There might have been an element to that, heads seemed to drop but I still feel that what caused by far the most damage was not reacting to the Arbeloa-Modric substitution.

What?

 

[Cina]

Every year football fans & players moan about CL refs penalising British teams for this kind of offence; isn't it about time CL and PL rules/guidelines were bought into line?

No, feck off.

 

[SteveJ]

Ok, chief.

*fecks off*

 

[Siorac]

What?

Come on, we laughed at RAWK's reaction to the Shelvey red card; Giggs saying that Nani's red was the biggest shock of his entire career was bordering on rawkish. And many here treat it as if it were the greatest refereeing error of all time when in reality it was a yellow card offence that was judged a little too harshly.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Come on, we laughed at RAWK's reaction to the Shelvey red card; Giggs saying that Nani's red was the biggest shock of his entire career was bordering on rawkish. And many here treat it as if it were the greatest refereeing error of all time when in reality it was a yellow card offence that was judged a little too harshly.

No one's treating it as the worst refereeing decision of all time, it was a massive shock in the context of the tie. Even Gary Neville said he's never seen Old Trafford in shock like that, but yeah what do Gary Neville and Ryan Giggs know? That loss hurt, most of the time we just get on with it, it's nothing like RAWK. If it was like RAWK we'd have had infinite conspiracies suggesting the tie was fixed because Varane didn't get sent off in the first leg and Nani did in the second leg, but we haven't.

 

[Adebesi]

So does that 2nd half performance count as bottling it?

 

[Mockney]

feck the 2nd half, we surrendered the game to Chelsea in the 30th minute.

 

[samabachan]

So does that 2nd half performance count as bottling it?

Nope, you are not allowed to criticise United in any way shape or form on here mate.

 

[Mockney]

That was a bottle job without doubt. I'm astounded by it to be fair. I can't quite understand what happened. It was like we couldn't be bothered to pass it with any enthusiasm. Everything was under hit like a kind of bizarre training game played after 3 bottles of Night Nurse.

 

[Godfather]

Hoped for a big response, but today was the worst case that could have happened.
Gave away a lead again, this time 2 goals ahead and with 11 men.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Well the worst case would have been to get stuffed by Chelsea. But yeah today was a complete bottle job.

 

[samabachan]

That was a bottle job without doubt. I'm astounded at it to be fair. I can't quite understand what happened.

It was one of the most spineless second half performances I have seen in a long time, not just by us but by any big club. I understand that there are extenuating circumstances around the game but any self-respecting Fergie side of the past would have put in their best performance of the season after a result like Tuesday, not their worst.

 

[shaggy]

I'm more worried about throwing away the league to be honest. City, Chelsea and Arsenal are all potential feck-ups, and we've still got the likes of Stoke, West Brom, Sunderland, and West Ham away.

 

[humdinger]

We were so complacent it beggars belief. I could hardly believe my eyes. I've never seen such atrocious passing from some of our players as I did today. The way we kept clearing it straight out of play or to a Chelsea shirt was infuriating. Shameful stuff.

 

[KM]

I'm more worried about throwing away the league to be honest. City, Chelsea and Arsenal are all potential feck-ups, and we've still got the likes of Stoke, West Brom, Sunderland, and West Ham away.

Oh for feck's sake, calm down.

 

[shaggy]

Oh for feck's sake, calm down.

It's a legitimate concern after today's horror show. There have been signs of throwing away leads throughout the season and it's only going to get tougher as it draws to an end.

 

[KM]

It's a legitimate concern after today's horror show. There have been signs of throwing away leads throughout the season and it's only going to get tougher as it draws to an end.

It's not a legitimate concern when you're basing it on one match and have discounted our previous matches. Whilst our performance was terrible, we've got a decent time before our next match. We recovered well from throwing away leads at City and Chelsea.

City have Everton, Spurs and Us away. That won't be easy for them too.

 

[Adebesi]

I think it's a bit premature to be worrying about us throwing away the league, considering the position we're in, tho after last season it's natural to think about it. I still think we'll win the double to be honest. Just "doing it the hard way".

 

[Platato]

I think it's a bit premature to be worrying about us throwing away the league, considering the position we're in, tho after last season it's natural to think about it. I still think we'll win the double to be honest. Just "doing it the hard way".

Aye, we'll do the double but by the skin of our teeth. That performance resurfaced all my fears and concerns from the beginning of the season. Complete bottle job.

 

[Adebesi]

Aye, we'll do the double but by the skin of our teeth. That performance resurfaced all my fears and concerns from the beginning of the season. Complete bottle job.

The way I see it if we do the double, we'd have to buck our ideas up quickly to do Chelsea in the replay, and the momentum from that would takes us forward in the league. If we blow the replay I can imagine a wobble big enough to allow City to close this massive gap, but even then I'm not really concerned about an implosion that spectacular, I think the players will be too mindful of last year to let that happen. We've been very professional this season, I reckon we'll keep it going.

 

[Adebesi]

So yes, doing it the hard way, but no harder than this please SAF. Maybe that's wishful thinking.

 

[Platato]

The way I see it if we do the double, we'd have to buck our ideas up quickly to do Chelsea in the replay, and the momentum from that would takes us forward in the league. If we blow the replay I can imagine a wobble big enough to allow City to close this massive gap, but even then I'm not really concerned about an implosion that spectacular, I think the players will be too mindful of last year to let that happen. We've been very professional this season, I reckon we'll keep it going.

I'm quite confident we'll wrap up the league. If we don't, I'm actually going into hiding. It would be calamitous.

I agree with you. Momentum is everything at this stage of the season. If we beat Chelsea at the bridge, it'll make winning the league that much easier. We should have lost today but we're still in it. Our weaknesses are really coming out for all to see. We're good but we're not there yet. Shame that if we had held on against Real, I doubt we'd talking about this today. The squad has to respond.

They've got a week to get this out of their system. A comfortable home win next week should do the trick.

 

[Adebesi]

Shame that if we had held on against Real, I doubt we'd talking about this today.

Damn that pesky loss of momentum.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

I think people are overreacting slightly, it was a pathetic second half performance but we're overdue a little sticky period after churning out so many results post Norwich away.

 

[Adebesi]

Fair enough, I don't want to be overly critical of the players who've been excellent this season. Far better than I expected last summer when I was calling for reinforcements. But I still think we'd be well served with more depth. Otherwise why didn't we play Anderson? We needed him today.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Fair enough, I don't want to be overly critical of the players who've been excellent this season. Far better than I expected last summer when I was calling for reinforcements. But I still think we'd be well served with more depth. Otherwise why didn't we play Anderson? We needed him today.

I don't know, SAF has been excellent tactically recently but he has been a bit flat-footed in responding to the game situation. However tactics are one thing, execution is another. We're still in the Cup, we have a 12 point lead and we have a squad that is more than capable. Keep Vidic and Carrick fit, get RVP into some form again and all will be good. If we can approach all the big games left like we did against Madrid we'll finish with an excellent season.

 

[Plechazunga]

It's possible and quite desirable to have a plan b. The sides that were cited as the pinnacle of mental strength and presumably something we should strive for didn't have it though. The Chelseas the Inters of this world.

A red card for them just meant doing more of the same(admittedly at an increased disadvantage), but for us to overcome it would have meant a complete overhaul. The game didn't 'just' become more difficult, it was turned on it's head. It was therefore a bigger task mentally, even for a team with great leaders.

You've pretty much agreed to this earlier on and now you're saying you don't understand it.

I didn't understand the way you'd expressed it in the previous post. My bad, but why do you always need to be so aggressive, as if the person you're arguing with is lying rather than just disagreeing with you?

And when did I agree to that? I agreed we weren't a catenaccio side, but I don't agree that only a catenaccio side has any chance of holding out a man down against a good side.

Also, you've been talking in this thread as if it's daft to blame ourselves for what happened. I don't understand how that squares with this:

We didn't have a plan B. Which is a serious critique for a club of our magnitude and an obvious flaw.