Torres' sending off reduced Chelsea to 9 men. Ivanovic had seen red before then and we still struggled to break them down.
The team/Fergie bottled it after the red
- Thread starter samabachan
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I don't know what game you were watching. We'll leave that at that.
We didn't set up defensively against Barcelona in both finals, a spastic decision like I've called them so many times. Chelsea and Inter sat very deep denying Barcelona space between and behind the full backs, and they were reduced to stroking the ball around the half line in both matches. What your second point has to do with this discussion, lord knows.
Of course it would change, it would get even more difficult and maybe help the siege mentality.
There wouldn't be enough data to come to any sort of meaningful conclusion.
They're the better team because they have the better players. Simple really. There's a reason they were favourites to beat us, even after we got a good result in Madrid.
As for us outplaying them over two legs, if we did it was only marginally. We played with clever tactics, discipline and energy while they never really hit their peak, yet the game was on a knife edge. Once we lost a man their extra quality showed, they only stopped dominating after their second because they started to sit back, not because we suddenly started to outplay them.
The fact that we did well against them over the two legs doesn't mean we're the better team. By that logic Bilbao were a far better team then us last year, but none of us believe that do we?
Yep and relied on an offside goal to win. I have seen several instances of opponents going down to ten against us and we still look like we are playing against 11.
Liverpool did quite well this season with ten against us as well.
Well.. no doubt the players were stunned from the unexpected sending off, but perhaps a tad harsh, i thought SAF should have reacted better by bringing on Evans, tighten up the defence, Rooney for RVP to play deeper. It's not really impossible to have played out for a clean sheet, like England vs Italy for 120mins.
So because we didn't defend as well as Italy did in 2000 (Italy, of all countries) we bottled it?
That's the lunacy of it all, no grey ground. We could have done better but in no way does that mean we bottled it. It was a disgrace to let the game get to that point.
Most lesser sides tend to lose when down to 10 men. Look how we beat Liverpool at Anfield
Barca have been a great side since 09, they must have played a fair few games against 10 men in that time, especially with fecking Busquets in the side. Surely enough minutes to be statistically significant.
It's fairly simple, you look at their win rate against 11 and against 10, and then do the same for Madrid and Bayern and us and Chelsea.
In the absence of stats, though, intuition suggests that a team with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Villa are probably quite good when they also have an extra player. Especially as everyone parks the bus against them even with 11.
Pretty sure it's purely asinine posts that get persecuted not constructive criticism.
We arent use to playing with ten men either. We rarely get a player sent off these days. We have had no red cards this season. Only Twice last season. That said we were a disaster v City when it happened.
I have said over and over we didn't bottle it. But that's the lunacy of it, no grey area.
we defended well morons , it took a stunner to equalize
wtf is wrong with people
wtf is wrong with people
You claim both did well yet they both still lost.
We still did well towards the end against Madrid, we still lost.
OK, I just think we reacted poorly. If you think it was inevitability then we just disagree. I knew it would be hard when the red was given but I didn't lose hope until they scored. Maybe the players took your stand on it.
Good point. Well Chelsea did draw, but a similar result would have knocked us out.
Nobody is denying that. It was an awful red card and we should feel a massive injustice, however, it is not really criminal to say that we could have done a better job when we went down and protected our 1-0 lead, because we absolutely could have!
It's also perfectly possible that Ronaldo can wallop one in from 40 yards, just so difficult. Lack of composure is the only thing I can fault the team on and as others have said it was for a 10 min period. I think there was one point where Cleverley got the ball and got out of trouble only to turn back into it. That's inexperience but you felt there was enough experience out there to guide us. I can't fault anyone really but you can always do certain things better.
Aaaaaand nice work proving my point. Why don't you go back to one of the 8 'proud of the lads' threads and circle jerk with them instead of coming into this one and discussing some actual issues?
'Doing well' needing two goals in 20 minutes against 11 men killing time is a bit Brendan Rogers of you.
"Doing well" in the same way Liverpool and Chelsea "did well" against us. Fact of the matter is all teams with 10 men in that incident still lost.
I think we could have done better but I understand completely why we did not. This thread is similar to the poster who criticised De Gea for Modric's goal.
I have actually apologised for using the word bottled and said it was over the top...
The issues are relevant regardless of whether you wish to bandy semantics around.
I understand too why we we didn't, I think everyone does. It's just the inevitability where I disagree.
Barca deals with teams sitting back against them since 2008 (we even did it against them when they were in their period of turmoil), and they have more often than not passed the challenge during their peak period, when even real madrid got humiliated playing that way.
Absolutely ridiculous to play their footballing style down when it was so devastating ad successful, talk about short memories.
My second point is simple: this tiki taka team you would scoff at now, was being heralded by most as possibily one of the best teams ever... they looked unbeatable at times and the times they lost, it took a massive amount of luck and a herculian effort of defending.
so I daresay it was at least as hard to hold on against them for 70 minutes at their ground than for us to hold on for 35 mins at our ground vs real.
I still think Rooney and Anderson coming on for RVP and Giggs respectively would have got us ticking. Firstly, making subs gives our defenders a breather for few moments and secondly, Rooney and Anderson can hassle Madrid's players out of possession. There's no way fresh legs wouldn't have given us a respite than sticking with leggy players.
Fergie was slow to react - I wouldn't call it bottling but he does not react quickly to drastic changes in a match. Even when players get stretchered out, it takes about 5-10 mins before you see any movement on the bench. Someone like Mourinho would have brought on 3 defensive players. We were leading, forget the champagne football and get dirty. Carlos Quieroz needs to come back to United.
Dunno though, we could easily have had four in that time. They were much less comfortable than they expected to be.
I thought it was an odd decision to sit back at 1-2 actually, they were raping us. Very Mourinho though. But if we'd have scored one of those chances that fell to Vidic, Carrick (twice) and Wayne, I'd have backed us to win it, Madrid were rattled and I think Mourinho knew it from what he said afterwards.
The modric substition had a bigger effect than just Modric's talents. It sent a message that the game was now different. Yes it was easier for them and all in their favour. But 10 men, 1 up at home with 30 mins left for me is not as near an exit as we were in Milan or Turn in 99.
I think we did exactly the right thing not changing any players after the red. The players were obviously taken aback by the decision, and the forced change in formation and tactics would have left any team a bit unsettled. Our only hope was to try and see out 10-15 minutes or so and get our shape back and then make personal changes accordingly. Throwing on panic subs would have just added to the confusion and no one would have had a clue who was supposed to be doing what. Our most experienced player was already on the pitch and I doubt throwing on Evans, who would have no feel for the pace of the game, or an angry Rooney, would have helped matters.
Had Modric's shot bounced off the post and back into the box and the score stayed at 1-0, we might have shuffled the deck a bit and sorted ourselves out. It'd still have been an outside bet that we'd have held on but you never know in football. The fact of the matter is that we couldn't hold on to the lead and three minutes after the equaliser we were behind.
Had Modric's shot bounced off the post and back into the box and the score stayed at 1-0, we might have shuffled the deck a bit and sorted ourselves out. It'd still have been an outside bet that we'd have held on but you never know in football. The fact of the matter is that we couldn't hold on to the lead and three minutes after the equaliser we were behind.
It's not completely inevitable but you do need a lot of luck particularly against a team with a midfield of Khedira, Alonso (no longer being man marked), Ozil and Modric.
We were great, but the fact is they had a 2 goal cushion. And while I agree one goal would have made a massive difference, a 2 goal cusion does things to a team.
Modric's goal killed us, we were alright till then... I think there was always going to be an initial Real storm. There was bound to be... I doubt you could stop a side like Real really going for it as soon as the opposition go down a man... we just needed to weather that initial storm and then Madrid probably would have lost that impotus and we could have got another foot-hold in the game.
But you can't really account for Modric blasting one in from distance. After that went in, I think our players, wrongly, but understandably dropped off a bit, and Real hit the killer blow.
But you can't really account for Modric blasting one in from distance. After that went in, I think our players, wrongly, but understandably dropped off a bit, and Real hit the killer blow.
Well it is much more closer to an exit than in Milan for my money even when we were leading 2-1. Turin was a special night but I doubt we would have held on against Juve with 10 men.
You do need luck, but we ruled all that out by our reaction in my opinion. An immediate and clear response was not there, and that is a bit disappointing.
A late winner for them would bother me as much as 2 goals in 3 minutes so soon after the decision. Especially as all through both legs apart from that 15 minutes, we were the better side.
Chelsea and Inter conceded in those matches they "held on in" (2 and 1 respectively).
Spare me.
We weren't alright, two minutes earlier Rafael used his hand to clear the ball off the line. A goal was inevitable, it just turned out to be a spectacular one.
What would we have changed though. We were 1-0 up at that point and our defenders were playing good. Can't see why we should have been making changes at that point. Welbeck shifts over to nani's spot and we lose the man behind the striker with RVP playing by himself. SAF did nothing wrong. Once we were behind he made changes that were required as we needed a goal
Are we not allowed to be proud of the effort our players put in tonight?
Any serious point you had to make was diluted by the arseholery of your thread title.
Id a feeling he'd give the red the second i saw it. Initially I wasnt sure myself.
You see them given like that occasionally...terrible it decided the tie...
You see them given like that occasionally...terrible it decided the tie...
The Modric goal is getting really overlooked in all this by the way. Yes, it was a wonderful strike but he had far more space to hit it than he should have, Cleverley and Carrick both being culpable.