The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Pogue Mahone]

In any one country, the people who are getting vaccinated first are the ones who are deemed to have the highest risk of serious complications or death if they catch Covid. That may be because of age, existing illness or because they're doing a job that puts them in the firing line.

It's not age discrimination - the virus picks off the older, frailer people first, and also those who experience a high level of exposure (like health workers). If they get the vaccination first, why penalise them further? Many of them have been living in fear for the last year and/or shielding, which younger, fit people haven't had to do.

Exactly.

 

[Snowjoe]

I think a lot of the annoyance stems from “we’re all in this together”, until we aren’t anymore, and the people you’ve sacrificed over a year of the prime of your life for get to sod off on a jolly

 

[NinjaFletch]

In any one country, the people who are getting vaccinated first are the ones who are deemed to have the highest risk of serious complications or death if they catch Covid. That may be because of age, existing illness or because they're doing a job that puts them in the firing line.

It's not age discrimination - the virus picks off the older, frailer people first, and also those who experience a high level of exposure (like health workers). If they get the vaccination first, why penalise them further? Many of them have been living in fear for the last year and/or shielding, which younger, fit people haven't had to do.

Giving those people the right to do something because of their vaccination status that nobody else has isn’t penalising them, it just isn’t giving them a freedom that nobody else enjoys (I also fundamentally disagree in the strongest terms that lockdown has been disproportionately harder for older generations; it’s been shit for everyone in a variety of ways, there’s not much need to play top trumps with it).

I also want to be clear, I’m not disputing the logic of the vaccination schedule, nor the need to vaccinate those groups first, nor did I describe that as age discrimination. I described vaccine passports given off the back of that schedule as problematic. The royal society report produced recently touched on many of the same concerns (and not just the potential for age discrimination either).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think a lot of the annoyance stems from “we’re all in this together”, until we aren’t anymore, and the people you’ve sacrificed over a year of the prime of your life for get to sod off on a jolly

I get that but why would you feel the need to punish them by making them wait longer than they need to to start to get their lives back on track? Just seems nuts to me. And I’m saying this as someone who will be in the last 25% of my country to get the jab.

 

[711]

Same logic, if only Great Gran is going to die from Covid and you wanted to visit baby brother who lives in a different house, wouldn't lockdown be responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?

Why not just lock up all the oldies a year ago why the rest of us get on with it? We (correctly in my opinion) decided on a collective approach even where some groups would have done better without one.

Vaccine passports become necessary, in my opinion, once everyone has been offered one. If you choose not to accept it then businesses should be able to chose not to let you in. Until that point, by the very nature of the vaccine rollout, I cannot see how vaccine passports don't amount to age discrimination on a national level.

Not the same logic, there are differences. Lockdowns are intended to save lives. Preventing unvaccinated people from flying is intended to save lives. Preventing vaccinated people from flying just because it's unfair to others is nothing to do with saving lives, it's just childish jealously. I've no plans to fly anywhere for a year or two personally, I'm quite unbiased in this. Also willing to change my mind, given a good reason.

 

[Snowjoe]

I get that but why would you feel the need to punish them by making them wait longer than they need to to start to get their lives back on track? Just seems nuts to me. And I’m saying this as someone who will be in the last 25% of my country to get the jab.

I think a lot of young people have had their careers and social lives decimated this past year, which a lot will struggle to come back from and itll hit a nerve if the thanks they get for that is to continue being shut in over a virus that in all likelihood would barely touch them. I’m not saying it’s right but I understand it

 

[golden_blunder]

I say let the ones that can have some freedom, it’s been a shit year

 

[NinjaFletch]

It’s a stupid argument though. Which is why I was surprised to hear it coming from you. The reason we didn’t want to let the virus run amok in younger people wasn’t just about their personal risk of a bad outcome (which was not insignificant) it was about keeping the community levels low enough to help protect those at a much higher risk (which includes elderly, people with co-morbidities, ethnic minorities etc etc) It was never an option for any cohort of society to exist in complete isolation from everyone else. That was always a pipe dream.

It’s also got absolutely nothing with forcing vaccinated people to wait longer than necessary to re-engage with distant family or kickstart the economy. And let’s not forget that the first cohorts to be vaccinated were those most at risk, so much more likely to have been denied any chance of social interaction at all. I honestly can’t get my head around people who would argue that the elderly, frail, or immune compromised who have been forced to shield for over a year should be made to wait any longer than absolutely necessary to take the first steps back to normality.

I’m aware it’s a stupid argument, I’m aware of the logic behind lockdown, and I’m aware of the need for the approach. What I’m trying to convey isn’t that that approach is wrong, but that as soon as you start arguing for special dispensation for people and a breakdown of the collective approach, there are all manner of things that haven‘t been allowed during the past year that, on a case by case basis, would have posed little risk. We all made sacrifices, even those of us who individually were at little risk from Covid, and all significantly altered behaviours in order to protect the most vulnerable.

For literally everybody I know that has caused a hitherto untold strain on people’s mental health, relationships, lives, and jobs. So you can excuse me for not being filled with joy at the prospect of a summer shut out of society whilst others, completely understandably ahead on the vaccination schedule, enjoy their lives. If we’re going to use the ‘punishment‘ line of argument then it feels exactly like being punished for having done the right thing for a year. Call it jealousy if you like @711 (and of course, it’s true), but I think there’s a real failure to appreciate just how shit it’s been for young(er) people who now feel like they’re being forced to endure it for longer than everybody else. You might ultimately decide it’s the morally right thing to do anyway, but I’m slightly surprised at how flippantly the idea that this is an ethical (let alone legal, I’m absolutely sure the government would lose an age discrimination case if they made this law) quagmire is being dismissed.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think a lot of young people have had their careers and social lives decimated this past year, which a lot will struggle to come back from and itll hit a nerve if the thanks they get for that is to continue being shut in over a virus that in all likelihood would barely touch them. I’m not saying it’s right but I understand it

They must all have parents/grandparents though? As I said, I’ll be waiting longer than most for one of these vaccine passports (if/when they become a thing) but the thought of my folks getting away on a nice holiday after the shitty year they’ve had fills me with joy. And that would be taken to a whole other level if they had overseas family they could be reunited with.

I can understand being pissed off it’s the resentment I find weird. Surely we all know someone old enough that we can feel pleased on their behalf?

 

[Kasper]

Everything you’ve said there is correct but forcing vaccinated people to wait any longer than they need to in order to travel would be the worst possible way to counter the economic imbalances you allude to. If Richie wants his part time job at the bar again any time soon, it will be very much in his interest for as many Joes as possible to visit his hometown, as soon as possible.

Yeah I agree. I think I'm coming more from a perspective that I wish this "it's better for a greater good" logic would also be applied to wealth distribution or environmental responsibility.
Because if Richie wants better economic stability the better thing than getting his underpaid job back would be for governments to slash 30% of Joes and his generations wealth and redistribute it. But we both know that's not gonna happen.

 

[711]

I’m aware it’s a stupid argument, I’m aware of the logic behind lockdown, and I’m aware of the need for the approach. What I’m trying to convey isn’t that that approach is wrong, but that as soon as you start arguing for special dispensation for people and a breakdown of the collective approach, there are all manner of things that haven‘t been allowed during the past year that, on a case by case basis, would have posed little risk. We all made sacrifices, even those of us who individually were at little risk from Covid, and all significantly altered behaviours in order to protect the most vulnerable.

For literally everybody I know that has caused a hitherto untold strain on people’s mental health, relationships, lives, and jobs. So you can excuse me for not being filled with joy at the prospect of a summer shut out of society whilst others, completely understandably ahead on the vaccination schedule, enjoy their lives. If we’re going to use the ‘punishment‘ line of argument then it feels exactly like being punished for having done the right thing for a year. Call it jealousy if you like @711 (and of course, it’s true), but I think there’s a real failure to appreciate just how shit it’s been for young(er) people who now feel like they’re being forced to endure it for longer than everybody else. You might ultimately decide it’s the morally right thing to do anyway, but I’m slightly surprised at how flippantly the idea that this is an ethical (let alone legal, I’m absolutely sure the government would lose an age discrimination case if they made this law) quagmire is being dismissed.

I suppose if there are enough people feel the same way, and I suspect there will be, then passports will be dead in the water for the UK at any rate, purely because of the need to keep everyone behind all the other covid policies. Unnecessary and a bit sad though, but it won't affect me personally.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I suppose if there are enough people feel the same way, and I suspect there will be, then passports will be dead in the water for the UK at any rate, purely because of the need to keep everyone behind all the other covid policies. Unnecessary and a bit sad though, but it won't affect me personally.

Well fingers crossed vaccinations stay on track and it becomes a bit of a non issue, anyway. But yes, there’s a less than zero chance of any compliance whatsoever with measures if you target them at one specific group only (a group which has a pretty mixed record with compliance at any rate). It is selfish, I’m sure, and that world would probably be a better place if we all had the magnanimity to accept it as unfortunate but understandable, but my strength of feeling on the topic reflects that of a huge number of people I’ve spoken to who are already struggling and feel, frankly, bereft at the perceived unfairness of the proposal.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I suppose if there are enough people feel the same way, and I suspect there will be, then passports will be dead in the water for the UK at any rate, purely because of the need to keep everyone behind all the other covid policies. Unnecessary and a bit sad though, but it won't affect me personally.

You’re dead right. These hypothetical passports are giving me loads of opportunities to be an argumentative twat but they’ll never amount to more than that. The EU have already come out and said they don’t want to give any more rights to the vaccinated than they will give to those with a recent negative test. No doubt the exact same fudge will happen in the UK and the US, for the reasons you mention. I find the strength of feeling about wanting to unnecessarily delay other people getting their lives back to normal utterly bizarre but nowt so queer as folk and the governments will be well aware of that.

 

[Cal?]

Some interesting perspectives here and somewhat surprising that age discrimination is a big factor.

Here in HK, the vaccine rollout is so poorly done that they've opened up vaccination from 60+ to 30+ within 2 weeks and basically not hard at all for under 30s to get the jab if they wanted to either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

One last point. For the young/low risk there’s been nothing stopping them going on holiday over most of the last year. To more or less any country they choose. For the more vulnerable/elderly choosing to get on an airplane meant taking their life in their hands. Never mind, though. Can’t have them going on holiday any sooner than the rest of us when it will finally be safe to do so. That’s just not fair.

 

[Cal?]

Well fingers crossed vaccinations stay on track and it becomes a bit of a non issue, anyway. But yes, there’s a less than zero chance of any compliance whatsoever with measures if you target them at one specific group only (a group which has a pretty mixed record with compliance at any rate). It is selfish, I’m sure, and that world would probably be a better place if we all had the magnanimity to accept it as unfortunate but understandable, but my strength of feeling on the topic reflects that of a huge number of people I’ve spoken to who are already struggling and feel, frankly, bereft at the perceived unfairness of the proposal.

I don't get how it's possible to be non-compliant to get a vaccine passport to travel internationally?

One can't exactly just sneak past airport security onto planes.

 

[Ecstatic]

(1) Lockdowns are intended to save lives.
(2)Preventing unvaccinated people from flying is intended to save lives.
(3)Preventing vaccinated people from flying just because it's unfair to others is nothing to do with saving lives, it's just childish jealously.

(a) The debate is open. Large sections of the population believe the cure is worst than the disease
https://www.internationalaffairs.or...ckdowns-could-kill-more-people-than-covid-19/

(b) Discrimination. Deprivation of liberty. Tests are sufficient

(c) The Point (3) does not make sense. The blacklisted people will be the unvaccinated people.

 

[Balljy]

The normal passport is probably a bigger social construct than a vaccine passport and discriminates already all the time with the whole world accepting it. So I don't see an issue there.

I'm fine with people getting access to various things once vaccinated even if others in the same country haven't been offered a vaccine yet. It would definitely help various industries.

However, I'm not really a fan of how scepticism is portrayed as a pure envy thing, it reminds me a bit of how "tax the rich" positions are quickly turned into envy arguments. 21 year old Richie has just as much contributed to get this virus under control as 64 Joe just with the difference that the former had his university moved to remote right away, lost his part time job in a bar and has been constraint to a 12qm² room while Joe has kept his engineering office open to be able to talk football with his mates at lunch and spent his non-working time in his 200qm² house. The latter to be able to do things more freely than the former definitely does not feel right. I am aware that a lot of old people definitely had a tough year and the issue has definitely been downplayed with comments a la "ah well it only gets the old anyway".
But make no mistake, the boomer generation that gets vaccinated right now has definitely more economic and social security in these times than young people. As someone in his twenties who knows plenty of people my age who have quite suffered in these times, schools and universities were among the first to close while plenty of older working people could go along there life in quite a similar manner than before.

That's a really good point and is something we sadly accept by default.

 

[NinjaFletch]

One last point. For the young/low risk there’s been nothing stopping them going on holiday over most of the last year. To more or less any country they choose. For the more vulnerable/elderly choosing to get on an airplane meant taking their life in their hands. Never mind, though. Can’t have them going on holiday any sooner than the rest of us when it will finally be safe to do so. That’s just not fair.

Well that’s not strictly true, it’s very much not been a possibility for the majority of the year, whether legally or ethically. But, I think you’re being a bit disingenuous (well I know you’re being a bit disingenuous, so more than a bit disingenuous!). I really feel like your rationality fails to account for how much people either have or feel like they have sacrificed to protect people. From my admittedly anecdotal evidence, I feel like your demographic - stable, secure job and family - has been one of the least impacted by the rona (although I don’t mean to downplay any experiences you have had with it) and I’m just asking, really, for you to consider why other people who are at stages of their life where it has felt very, very difficult the last year aren’t enthused with the idea that they get left behind whilst everyone else gets on with it.

Anyway, I’m leaving it there too. Thinking too far about the future, especially topics like this, gives me terrible anxiety at the minute, and I’m not really sure I’m emotionally able to invest much more time discussing it all (God, that’s fecking pathetic to type).

 

[711]

Well that’s not strictly true, it’s very much not been a possibility for the majority of the year, whether legally or ethically. But, I think you’re being a bit disingenuous (well I know you’re being a bit disingenuous, so more than a bit disingenuous!). I really feel like your rationality fails to account for how much people either have or feel like they have sacrificed to protect people. From my admittedly anecdotal evidence, I feel like your demographic - stable, secure job and family - has been one of the least impacted by the rona (although I don’t mean to downplay any experiences you have had with it) and I’m just asking, really, for you to consider why other people who are at stages of their life where it has felt very, very difficult the last year aren’t enthused with the idea that they get left behind whilst everyone else gets on with it.

Anyway, I’m leaving it there too. Thinking too far about the future, especially topics like this, gives me terrible anxiety at the minute, and I’m not really sure I’m emotionally able to invest much more time discussing it all (God, that’s fecking pathetic to type).

No, it isn't pathetic. It's a terribly stressful time for millions. I'm lucky it's not affected me unduly, I try and remember that but do fail at times I admit.

 

[R'hllor]

Ok so, my cousin got released from Covid hospital few days ago, he had it rough but pulled through, spoke with him today and he told me that high % of patients in his room got 2nd vaccine X-Y days ago. Guess either people are dumb thinking that day after getting 2nd shot they are untouchable or they have no knowledge how whole thing works, they are all in oldish group of people.

That made me wonder, in a week my parents will get 2nd shot and due me having stubborn mule of a father, should i drag him to do antibody test after few weeks, before i release him into the wild or that doesnt matter and its waste of time.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well that’s not strictly true, it’s very much not been a possibility for the majority of the year, whether legally or ethically. But, I think you’re being a bit disingenuous (well I know you’re being a bit disingenuous, so more than a bit disingenuous!). I really feel like your rationality fails to account for how much people either have or feel like they have sacrificed to protect people. From my admittedly anecdotal evidence, I feel like your demographic - stable, secure job and family - has been one of the least impacted by the rona (although I don’t mean to downplay any experiences you have had with it) and I’m just asking, really, for you to consider why other people who are at stages of their life where it has felt very, very difficult the last year aren’t enthused with the idea that they get left behind whilst everyone else gets on with it.

Anyway, I’m leaving it there too. Thinking too far about the future, especially topics like this, gives me terrible anxiety at the minute, and I’m not really sure I’m emotionally able to invest much more time discussing it all (God, that’s fecking pathetic to type).

Ok, cool. Certainly don’t want to stress you out. And I do (try to) appreciate how privileged I am to experience this pandemic at my current age/situation in life. Apologies if my pig-headedness was annoying. This has kind of been my own coping mechanism. Arguing with strangers on redcafe!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

So if your Great Gran were vaccinated before you, and had a vaccine passport, and wanted to visit, then you would say 'No, I can't travel so you can't either'?

Wouldn't that make you responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?

I’m advocating travel for anyone vaccinated and those with a negative test, so no.
I wish some of you would read further back than one post.

I think Ninja hits the nail on the head here, so many middle class people on here, barely effected by Covid, loads of them have even admitted on here how much they enjoyed lots of lockdown and being home more. So many of these are playing the “I’m happy to wait” card, many of them being handsomely paid to WFH or furloughed and utterly ignorant to the hardship so many have suffered this past year, suffering that may go on for a long time yet.

I’ve lost a company I built up for 11 years, finances been utterly annihilated, really struggling financially despite how well the state here try to support you, wedding, stag, honeymoon cancelled, I have a 2 year old daughter that might never see her Great Gran again, that is losing all connection to our family back home. I desperately miss home, I desperately miss my friends, I desperately miss my job/company.

This has all been done to protect a tiny tiny fecking proportion of our population, and as country after country reduce their foreign aid it’ll feck over kids for decades in poorer countries, make no mistake about that. It pisses me off more than anything listening the righteous bollocks from so many on here living in countries with disastrous foreign and immigration policies pretending they give a shit about human life because all of a sudden now it’s life on their doorsteps we’re talking about. Seriously where were the same people demanding their governments helped Syria in 2015, fecking nowhere to be seen.

It’s fecking imperative that we get life going again as soon the vaccines are here and risk groups can be vaccinated. By June a large proportion of Europe will have been jabbed and we have the ability to test those who cannot be vaccinated or haven’t had the opportunity yet. At that point a vaccine passport or negative test will be more than enough.

But should those at the back of the queue wait even longer, maybe as much as another year, to get back to living life? feck off I say, vaccines will protect risk groups, and Covid will still be around without question, so a few negative tested people slipping the net will make feck all difference.
Would it have made any difference if the UK had allowed Swedes in last June, July? Would it bollocks, as 2 further lockdowns proves, I argued that then and hey, they fecking locked em out anyway and now loads on here want countries to keep continuing to play silly bollocks when zero-Covid is clearly a pipe dream, I don’t think there’s a single expert who believes it possible.

But so many that have feck all idea of how hard many have had it, and feck me I’m one of the lucky ones, despite how it may sound above, telling people not to be envious, or “life aint fair” is rich to say the least.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Ok, cool. Certainly don’t want to stress you out. Apologies if my pig-headedness was annoying. This has kind of been my own coping mechanism. Arguing with strangers on redcafe!

Nah, not at all. Your point of view is more than reasonable; it's just a case of knowing when I need to disengage.

 

[Balljy]

They must all have parents/grandparents though? As I said, I’ll be waiting longer than most for one of these vaccine passports (if/when they become a thing) but the thought of my folks getting away on a nice holiday after the shitty year they’ve had fills me with joy. And that would be taken to a whole other level if they had overseas family they could be reunited with.

I can understand being pissed off it’s the resentment I find weird. Surely we all know someone old enough that we can feel pleased on their behalf?

There definitely seems to be a first world thing going on to an extent here. We've got a lot of UK, US and EU arguments but by some posts people in other countries are going to have to wait years before being able to travel to meet family etc.

A vaccine or negative result / quarantine has to be enough to travel, otherwise some people could be waiting years, not months.

 

[mav_9me]

If Nan Daphne, who got her second jab in Feb, wants to visit me in August and has a vaccine passport; can you or anyone assure me she can't carry or pass on Covid?

If my preggers missus tests negative in June for Covid, and wants to take a trip back to the UK, who is more of a "threat to society"?

Can we even answer these questions with any degree of certainty in order to discriminate to that degree? Hmmmmm......

Not yet but increasingly data coming out and in the future more will that will show much less transmission in vaccinated people. That would be the clincher which makes covid like flu in incidence.

Ok so, my cousin got released from Covid hospital few days ago, he had it rough but pulled through, spoke with him today and he told me that high % of patients in his room got 2nd vaccine X-Y days ago. Guess either people are dumb thinking that day after getting 2nd shot they are untouchable or they have no knowledge how whole thing works, they are all in oldish group of people.

That made me wonder, in a week my parents will get 2nd shot and due me having stubborn mule of a father, should i drag him to do antibody test after few weeks, before i release him into the wild or that doesnt matter and its waste of time.

I wouldn't. Real world data suggests great efficacy 2 weeks after 2nd shot.

 

[Eboue]

booked a vaccine for next week. its an hour away so im gonna keep trying to find one closer but have to take what i can get at the moment

 

[GloryHunter07]

Well the information was quickly clarified by another member so the Caf did do something about it. Luckily we have a lot of very smart people here who are happy to explain complicated stuff to the rest of us who lack the medical background to figure it out ourselves.

That is true but id like to see clearly misleading posts tagged as such. Perhaps that is just me. A lie gets half way round the world etc etc

 

[Andy_Cole]

Got mine today. See you on the other side.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Not yet but increasingly data coming out and in the future more will that will show much less transmission in vaccinated people. That would be the clincher which makes covid like flu in incidence.

You are convinced there will be much less transmission in vaccinated people after say 5-8 months than people who have tested negative in the past day, in a World where transmission will inevitably be less anyway due to vaccines?

Yeah I’m calling bollocks on that.

To prevent mass discrimination, not least for people in poorer countries and those unable to vaccine due to health reasons, a passport and/or negative test has to be the solution or countries are just playing silly beggers all over again.

 

[lynchie]

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[Pogue Mahone]

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That’s fascinating.

Also enjoyed her giving props to the EMA

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[lynchie]

That’s fascinating.

Also enjoyed her giving props to the EMA

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Hilda's an ace follow for summarising these reviews

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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Could be an imminent plot twist re the AZ license in the US.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Hilda's an ace follow for summarising these reviews

Yeah, been scrolling through her feed. Loads of good stuff there. The DSMB concerns about AZ leaped out at me. Very unusual to hear a DSMB question a pharma company like that. Be interesting to see where that goes. If I was a betting man my money would be on them taking issue with the 100% efficacy vs severe disease. The trial wasn’t powered to make those sort of claims.

 

[lynchie]

Yeah, been scrolling through her feed. Loads of good stuff there. The DSMB concerns about AZ leaped out at me. Very unusual to hear a DSMB question a pharma company like that. Be interesting to see where that goes. If I was a betting man my money would be on them taking issue with the 100% efficacy vs severe disease. The trial wasn’t powered to make those sort of claims.

It's impossible know until there's more updates, but given they say the data is "outdated" and the limited information in the press release, either there's been a late finding of a person with severe disease so the 100% gets knocked on the head (which would be no different from the mRNA vaxs), or maybe they've found a CVST case?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's impossible know until there's more updates, but given they say the data is "outdated" and the limited information in the press release, either there's been a late finding of a person with severe disease so the 100% gets knocked on the head (which would be no different from the mRNA vaxs), or maybe they've found a CVST case?

They do specify efficacy, rather than safety, so I’m hopeful this has nothing to do with clots (thank feck!) In my opinion the 100% was never justified, as the numbers were too low to support such a claim, so if that gets withdrawn then it’s no big deal.

 

[lynchie]

They do specify efficacy, rather than safety, so I’m hopeful this has nothing to do with clots (thank feck!) In my opinion the 100% was never justified, as the numbers were too low to support such a claim, so if that gets withdrawn then it’s no big deal.

Good point, that's a relief then.

 

[Sky1981]

Most of the elderly are vacinnated here in Indonesia, at least at the big cities. My mum and dad received the first jab.

 

[Mickeza]

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Could be an imminent plot twist re the AZ license in the US.

Apparently efficacy and not safety related. 79% with 4 week dosing is significantly higher than that dosing pattern done elsewhere isn’t it? Seems they may have been telling porkies on their press release! It’s clearly a very good vaccine that they keep monumentally screwing the trials up for