The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Wibble]

If Nan Daphne, who got her second jab in Feb, wants to visit me in August and has a vaccine passport; can you or anyone assure me she can't carry or pass on Covid?

If my preggers missus tests negative in June, tests negative for Covid, and wants to take a trip back to the UK, who is more of a "threat to society"?

Can we even answer these questions with any degree of certainty in order to discriminate to that degree? Hmmmmm......

Tests are unreliable and even when accurate only reflect the viral load when the test is taken.

A vaccination passport will provide far more certainty even if not 100% protection.

 

[Grinner]

Id like to see Redcafe do something about it..

Well the information was quickly clarified by another member so the Caf did do something about it. Luckily we have a lot of very smart people here who are happy to explain complicated stuff to the rest of us who lack the medical background to figure it out ourselves.

 

[BD]

Why would people be against the idea of vaccinated people travelling as soon as they can, other than envy?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Tests are unreliable and even when accurate only reflect the viral load when the test is taken.

A vaccination passport will provide far more certainty even if not 100% protection.

You can't say that with any certainty whatsoever Wibbs, because even the scientists behind the vaccines have no idea how long the protection will last, nor if for some it could be extremely short-lived.

 

[Wibble]

But can you or anyone answer the question above to green light that level of discrimination ?

It is a health issue so you deal with it as such. Start trying to make is a political issue and millions die as has happened already. Economically it would be hugely damaging not to use covid passports to get travel up and running again ASAP.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But can you or anyone answer the question above to green light that level of discrimination ?

As I've mentioned before, I had my yellow feber jab back in 06 in order to travel to Panama, so it's not a new or novel thing, but it would be monumental discrimination against so many to do what you're suggesting. I can't agree with that level of discrimination when we don't even have all the answers about which is safer, a "negative test today" or a "vaccine 5 months ago".

A negative test before flying for someone who is already vaccinated would be the ideal IMO. Even that won’t be watertight but a big improvement on the alternatives.

This is a bit if a moot point, in my opinion, as it’s not going to happen. I think the EU proposed approach will be replicated everywhere.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Why would people be against the idea of vaccinated people travelling as soon as they can, other than envy?

I'd be fecking fuming in fairness if my daughter can't see her family back in the UK for over 2 years and never sees her Great Gran again, whilst my 72 yr old neighbour Lasse is sunbathing in Puerto Banus.

I swear some feckwits forget just how many families have been ripped apart by Covid, and how many lives work, it's not just about getting some fecktards going back on their jollies again.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

A negative test before flying for someone who is already vaccinated would be the ideal IMO. Even that won’t be watertight but a big improvement on the alternatives.

Well there you go, you're already throwing another level in because what I'm saying is correct, we have no idea if the negative tested pregnant missus nor the 90 year old vaccinated in Feb Nan is more likely to be carrying and able to pass on Covid.

And yet you're all ok with discrimination to that degree.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If the EU covid passport doesn't differentiate between people who have been infected and those who have been vaccinated I very much doubt NZ, AU, Singapore etc will accept it.

As I said, that’s their perogative and depends how highly they value EU tourists. I was mainly curious to hear if there are any other countries proposing a vaccine passport mechanism which is more restrictive than the EU. Because I suspect that will be political suicide.

 

[BD]

I'd be fecking fuming in fairness if my daughter can't see her family back in the UK for over 2 years and never sees her Great Gran again, whilst my 72 yr old neighbour Lasse is sunbathing in Puerto Banus.

So, envy. It's obviously completely understandable to feel that way, and I'm sure I would too in that case. But I don't think it's a good enough reason to keep others in lockdown.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well there you go, you're already throwing another level in because what I'm saying is correct, we have no idea if the negative tested pregnant missus nor the 90 year old vaccinated in Feb Nan it more likely to be carrying and able to pass on Covid.

And yet you're all ok with discrimination to that degree.

I’m absolutely ok with that “discrimination”, yes.

 

[utdalltheway]

What’s one got to do with the other?
Does your neighbour have to check in with you before he books to puerto banus? Of course not.
No one said life is fair anyway.

 

[Wibble]

You can't say that with any certainty whatsoever Wibbs, because even the scientists behind the vaccines have no idea how long the protection will last, nor if for some it could be extremely short-lived.

All the indications so far are that t-cells are being produced even when initial antibodies to the more problesome variants aren't that great so protection seems likely to be far far longer than a few months.

Tests are only really useful if combined with 14 day quarantine and the idea is to eliminate the need for quarantine.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

So, envy. It's obviously completely understandable to feel that way, and I'm sure I would too in that case. But I don't think it's a good enough reason to keep others in lockdown.

It's not envy, it's discriminating against my fecking daughter and family so Lasse can go sunbathe.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

What’s one got to do with the other?
Does your neighbour have to check in with you before he books to puerto banus? Of course not.
No one said life is fair anyway.

Good one. "life aint fair dickhead"

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

So, envy. It's obviously completely understandable to feel that way, and I'm sure I would too in that case. But I don't think it's a good enough reason to keep others in lockdown.

No-one is saying to keep everyone in lockdown though.

 

[Wibble]

I'd be fecking fuming in fairness if my daughter can't see her family back in the UK for over 2 years and never sees her Great Gran again, whilst my 72 yr old neighbour Lasse is sunbathing in Puerto Banus.

I swear some feckwits forget just how many families have been ripped apart by Covid, and how many lives work, it's not just about getting some fecktards going back on their jollies again.

I won't have seen my son for 2 years by the time we can travel, since a few days after his 21st. It sucks but utterly essential.

 

[utdalltheway]

Good one. "life aint fair dickhead"

Cmon man. It’s not like that but to think that your neighbour shouldn’t travel because your daughter or others (presumably in a different country?) are living in a place that can’t get its shit together as quick as others.
yeah, life’s still not fair.

I haven’t been able to travel to see my own mother, who just turned 90 a few weeks ago, in over 18 months. Should I wait till your daughter can travel and hope my mother is still alive?
Once my mother and the rest of my siblings over there are vaccinated I’m traveling. I’ll be vaccinated in about a month.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

All the indications so far are that t-cells are being produced even when initial antibodies to the more problesome variants aren't that great so protection seems likely to be far far longer than a few months.

Tests are only really useful if combined with 14 day quarantine and the idea is to eliminate the need for quarantine.

And if Australia goes with vaccines only as proof of "ok", as the Qantas bloke said, you can be certain you'll have more Covid than ever as some point soon.

This no-Covid idea needs to die a quick death.

 

[Mickeza]

It's not envy, it's discriminating against my fecking daughter and family so Lasse can go sunbathe.

There’s no correlation though. Stopping Lasse sunbathing doesn’t allow your daughter to travel - it just stops Lasse getting a tan.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's not envy, it's discriminating against my fecking daughter and family so Lasse can go sunbathe.

You’re thinking about this the wrong way. It’s so Lasse can help people who desperately need tourist dollars to earn a living, without Lasse killing any of them.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Cmon man. It’s not like that but to think that your neighbour shouldn’t travel because your daughter or others (presumably in a different country?) are living in a place that can’t get its shit together as quick as orhers.
yeah, life’s still not fair.

Once again I don't think Lasse shouldn't travel when vaccinated. Read the fecking discussion man.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You’re thinking about this the wrong way. It’s so Lasse can help people who desperately need tourist dollars to earn a living, without Lasse killing any of them.

And my missus wouldn't be killing anyone by taking a test in June, testing negative and flying back the UK.

You're thinking about it from a perspective of either "zero Covid" which is pie in the sky stuff, or total reliance on the vaccine protecting 100% for a long period, a complete unknown.

I think both should be allowed, because I don't believe there's ever a chance of zero Covid, ever.

 

[Wibble]

And if Australia goes with vaccines only as proof of "ok", as the Qantas bloke said, you can be certain you'll have more Covid than ever as some point soon.

This no-Covid idea needs to die a quick death.

How do you figure? We won't be opening up even with a covid passport until 80% or more of Australians are vaccinated. Except possibly to countries like NZ who have also almost eliminated community transmission.

 

[Wibble]

And my missus wouldn't be killing anyone by taking a test in June, testing negative and flying back the UK.

You're thinking about it from a perspective of either "zero Covid" which is pie in the sky stuff, or total reliance on the vaccine protecting 100% for a long period, a complete unknown.

I think both should be allowed, because I don't believe there's ever a chance of zero Covid, ever.

That test is close to meaningless without quarantine on arrival

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

How do you figure? We won't be opening up even with a covid passport until 80% or more of Australians are vaccinated. Except possibly to countries like NZ who have also almost eliminated community transmission.

I figure because I don't see zero Covid as a viable future, it aint happening.

The quotes from Joyce I agree with:

Even with vaccines, Mr Joyce thinks that "once we open up our international borders, we're going to have the virus circulating".
"And that's going to be a big change for a lot of Australia, to find that acceptable," he said. "We need people to understand they can't have zero risk with this virus. We manage risk in so many different other ways for other parts of life."

Some vaccinated people will pass on the virus, things will slip the net once you open up. You'll have all risk groups vaccinated by then and lots more protection so you'll live with it just fine.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And my missus wouldn't be killing anyone by taking a test in June, testing negative and flying back the UK.

You're thinking about it from a perspective of either "zero Covid" which is pie in the sky stuff, or total reliance on the vaccine protecting 100% for a long period, a complete unknown.

I think both should be allowed, because I don't believe there's ever a chance of zero Covid, ever.

As I said, vaccine plus negative test is the way forward. Gives the best possible chance of minimising cross border transmission while allowing tourism to start again.

And this isn’t about zero covid. This is about keeping out new variants that could potentially rip through an already vaccinated population.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

As I said, vaccine plus negative test is the way forward. Gives the best possible chance of minimising cross border transmission while allowing tourism to start again.

And this isn’t about zero covid. This is about keeping out new variants that could potentially rip through an already vaccinated population.

I don't see any variant doing what it did back in April, that feels extremely unlikely, for any variant they'll be a much higher level of protection in the population, as well as constant improvement in the vaccines.

Once a country has vaccinated to a significant degree, vaccine passports and/or negative test should be enough for us to allow people to live again. As I say, I don't think there's anywhere near enough evidence for that level of discrimination of vaccinated 5 months back vs. negative test today. This isn't about getting tourism back up and running, Europe has separated families spread all over the continent, as does Australia in fairness. To continue to deny those basic human rights to so many would be wrong when based upon zero evidence or worse, a zero-Covid fantasy.

 

[utdalltheway]

Once again I don't think Lasse shouldn't travel when vaccinated. Read the fecking discussion man.

It’s good to get different opinions on this whole thing.
I thought you were saying Lasse shouldn’t travel, even if vaccinated, until others get vaccinated too.
Anyway, good luck to you. I hope you get the family reunited safely soon.
We’re supposed to go to the Philippines next Christmas but I’m not so sure. Still a long time away. We’ve been putting it off for over a year now.
That, and a trip to Ireland to see my gang are on my mind.

 

[Wibble]

I figure because I don't see zero Covid as a viable future, it aint happening.

The quotes from Joyce I agree with:

Even with vaccines, Mr Joyce thinks that "once we open up our international borders, we're going to have the virus circulating".
"And that's going to be a big change for a lot of Australia, to find that acceptable," he said. "We need people to understand they can't have zero risk with this virus. We manage risk in so many different other ways for other parts of life."

Some vaccinated people will pass on the virus, things will slip the net once you open up. You'll have all risk groups vaccinated by then and lots more protection so you'll live with it just fine.

Joyce runs an airline so wants us to open up ASAP. He wants to open up in July. The government are aiming for 2022 or very late 2021 at the earliest, especially as our vaccination program is a bit behind schedule.

 

[Grinner]

What's the legality of say Ryanair asking prospective passengers for proof of vaccination before selling them a seat?

Not that they would because they'd risk their own grannies to make a quid.

 

[Stanley Road]

But can you or anyone answer the question above to green light that level of discrimination ?

As I've mentioned before, I had my yellow feber jab back in 06 in order to travel to Panama, so it's not a new or novel thing, but it would be monumental discrimination against so many to do what you're suggesting. I can't agree with that level of discrimination when we don't even have all the answers about which is safer, a "negative test today" or a "vaccine 5 months ago".

Whats discriminatory about it?

 

[711]

I'd be fecking fuming in fairness if my daughter can't see her family back in the UK for over 2 years and never sees her Great Gran again, whilst my 72 yr old neighbour Lasse is sunbathing in Puerto Banus.

I swear some feckwits forget just how many families have been ripped apart by Covid, and how many lives work, it's not just about getting some fecktards going back on their jollies again.

So if your Great Gran were vaccinated before you, and had a vaccine passport, and wanted to visit, then you would say 'No, I can't travel so you can't either'?

Wouldn't that make you responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?

 

[NinjaFletch]

So if your Great Gran were vaccinated before you, and had a vaccine passport, and wanted to visit, then you would say 'No, I can't travel so you can't either'?

Wouldn't that make you responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?

Same logic, if only Great Gran is going to die from Covid and you wanted to visit baby brother who lives in a different house, wouldn't lockdown be responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?

Why not just lock up all the oldies a year ago why the rest of us get on with it? We (correctly in my opinion) decided on a collective approach even where some groups would have done better without one.

Vaccine passports become necessary, in my opinion, once everyone has been offered one. If you choose not to accept it then businesses should be able to chose not to let you in. Until that point, by the very nature of the vaccine rollout, I cannot see how vaccine passports don't amount to age discrimination on a national level.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Same logic, if only Great Gran is going to die from Covid and you wanted to visit baby brother who lives in a different house, wouldn't lockdown be responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?

Why not just lock up all the oldies a year ago why the rest of us get on with it?

Vaccine passports become necessary, in my opinion, once everyone has been offered one. If you choose not to accept it then businesses should be able to chose not to let you in. Until that point, by the very nature of the vaccine rollout, I cannot see how vaccine passports don't amount to age discrimination on a national level.

Did that analogy make more sense in your head than it does written down?!

The question right after that one manages to be even worse. Which is quite an achievement.

 

[Kasper]

The normal passport is probably a bigger social construct than a vaccine passport and discriminates already all the time with the whole world accepting it. So I don't see an issue there.

I'm fine with people getting access to various things once vaccinated even if others in the same country haven't been offered a vaccine yet. It would definitely help various industries.

However, I'm not really a fan of how scepticism is portrayed as a pure envy thing, it reminds me a bit of how "tax the rich" positions are quickly turned into envy arguments. 21 year old Richie has just as much contributed to get this virus under control as 64 Joe just with the difference that the former had his university moved to remote right away, lost his part time job in a bar and has been constraint to a 12qm² room while Joe has kept his engineering office open to be able to talk football with his mates at lunch and spent his non-working time in his 200qm² house. The latter to be able to do things more freely than the former definitely does not feel right. I am aware that a lot of old people definitely had a tough year and the issue has definitely been downplayed with comments a la "ah well it only gets the old anyway".
But make no mistake, the boomer generation that gets vaccinated right now has definitely more economic and social security in these times than young people. As someone in his twenties who knows plenty of people my age who have quite suffered in these times, schools and universities were among the first to close while plenty of older working people could go along there life in quite a similar manner than before.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Did that analogy make more sense in your head than it does written down?!

Maybe I haven't expressed it clearly enough (probably baby brother, I meant an adult relative), but I think the points obvious is it not?

If we're going to support vaccine passports because, if not, you're 'needlessly keeping families apart', then there are all manner of combinations of how families could have met during the last year with a vanishingly small risk that any of them whatsoever would get seriously ill from Covid. In fact, it's one of the most common arguments you hear from lockdown sceptics.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The normal passport is probably a bigger social construct than a vaccine passport and discriminates already all the time with the whole world accepting it. So I don't see an issue there.

I'm fine with people getting access to various things once vaccinated even if others in the same country haven't been offered a vaccine yet. It would definitely help various industries.

However, I'm not really a fan of how scepticism is portrayed as a pure envy thing, it reminds me a bit of how "tax the rich" positions are quickly turned into envy arguments. 21 year old Richie has just as much contributed to get this virus under control as 64 Joe just with the difference that the former had his university moved to remote right away, lost his part time job in a bar and has been constraint to a 12qm² room while Joe has kept his engineering office open to be able to talk football with his mates at lunch and spent his non-working time in his 200qm² house. The latter to be able to do things more freely than the former definitely does not feel right. I am aware that a lot of old people definitely had a tough year and the issue has definitely been downplayed with comments a la "ah well it only gets the old anyway".
But make no mistake, the boomer generation that gets vaccinated right now has definitely more economic and social security in these times than young people. As someone in his twenties who knows plenty of people my age who have quite suffered in these times, schools and universities were among the first to close while plenty of older working people could go along there life in quite a similar manner than before.

Everything you’ve said there is correct but forcing vaccinated people to wait any longer than they need to in order to travel would be the worst possible way to counter the economic imbalances you allude to. If Richie wants his part time job at the bar again any time soon, it will be very much in his interest for as many Joes as possible to visit his hometown, as soon as possible.

 

[Penna]

Same logic, if only Great Gran is going to die from Covid and you wanted to visit baby brother who lives in a different house, wouldn't lockdown be responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?

Why not just lock up all the oldies a year ago why the rest of us get on with it? We (correctly in my opinion) decided on a collective approach even where some groups would have done better without one.

Vaccine passports become necessary, in my opinion, once everyone has been offered one. If you choose not to accept it then businesses should be able to chose not to let you in. Until that point, by the very nature of the vaccine rollout, I cannot see how vaccine passports don't amount to age discrimination on a national level.

In any one country, the people who are getting vaccinated first are the ones who are deemed to have the highest risk of serious complications or death if they catch Covid. That may be because of age, existing illness or because they're doing a job that puts them in the firing line.

It's not age discrimination - the virus picks off the older, frailer people first, and also those who experience a high level of exposure (like health workers). If they get the vaccination first, why penalise them further? Many of them have been living in fear for the last year and/or shielding, which younger, fit people haven't had to do.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maybe I haven't expressed it clearly enough (probably baby brother, I meant an adult relative), but I think the points obvious is it not?

If we're going to support vaccine passports because, if not, you're 'needlessly keeping families apart', then there are all manner of combinations of how families could have met during the last year with a vanishingly small risk that any of them whatsoever would get seriously ill from Covid. In fact, it's one of the most common arguments you hear from lockdown sceptics.

It’s a stupid argument though. Which is why I was surprised to hear it coming from you. The reason we didn’t want to let the virus run amok in younger people wasn’t just about their personal risk of a bad outcome (which was not insignificant) it was about keeping the community levels low enough to help protect those at a much higher risk (which includes elderly, people with co-morbidities, ethnic minorities etc etc) It was never an option for any cohort of society to exist in complete isolation from everyone else. That was always a pipe dream.

It’s also got absolutely nothing with forcing vaccinated people to wait longer than necessary to re-engage with distant family or kickstart the economy. And let’s not forget that the first cohorts to be vaccinated were those most at risk, so much more likely to have been denied any chance of social interaction at all. I honestly can’t get my head around people who would argue that the elderly, frail, or immune compromised who have been forced to shield for over a year should be made to wait any longer than absolutely necessary to take the first steps back to normality.