The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[jojojo]

JVT confirms the vaccine clinical trials run by the NHS have been a disaster - for the participants.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...XJCZkQI9m4ADcE1ae6v5ydB_og1cP50eYm5m9qDiDhWXQ

Sorry for the clickbait description. They're not a disaster - they aren't killing people. They are stopping us travelling, and the participants will probably tell their mates never to participate in a trial that matters during a pandemic which isn't a great outcome.

 

[Penna]

JVT confirms the vaccine clinical trials run by the NHS have been a disaster - for the participants.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...XJCZkQI9m4ADcE1ae6v5ydB_og1cP50eYm5m9qDiDhWXQ

Sorry for the clickbait description. They're not a disaster - they aren't killing people. They are stopping us travelling, and the participants will probably tell their mates never to participate in a trial that matters during a pandemic which isn't a great outcome.

It's a disgrace - anyone who volunteered to be the first shouldn't have lost out. It's astonishing that the travel issues/certification haven't been resolved by now.

edit - you could just have a special pass with "Clinical Trial Participant" on it. There are only 19,000, it's not like it's millions of people.

 

[jojojo]

It's a disgrace - anyone who volunteered to be the first shouldn't have lost out. It's astonishing that the travel issues/certification haven't been resolved by now.

edit - you could just have a special pass with "Clinical Trial Participant" on it. There are only 19,000, it's not like it's millions of people.

The UK domestic pass works, and it looks like people like JVT have kept it on the agenda so trial participants keep getting their own explicit category on quarantine rules etc within the UK. It probably helps that Kate Bingham (who ran the UK vaccine procurement team) is (or was, I assume she's out by now) on the Novavax trial and so were some MPs.

It's the international side where there's no agreement, and to be fair I can understand that. Are all trials, of all vaccines (or vaccine "alternatives"), in all countries to be viewed the same - because no one will agree to that.

Back in the old days (ie: pre Brexit) I'd have been hopeful that a deal could have been struck through EMA to sanction the trials supervised by the MHRA. Now that kind of thing all relies on goodwill

The UK has made a concession this week - they've accepted that mix and match vaccines (like AZ first dose, Pfizer second) used in some EU countries are valid vaccines. Slow progress, even on the basics.

 

[Penna]

Bookings for coronavirus vaccines in Italy spiked this week after the government said all employees must show proof of a jab, negative test or recent recovery from Covid-19, authorities said.

“On a national level, there was a generalised increase in bookings for the first dose of between 20 and 40 percent compared to last week,” coronavirus commissioner Francesco Figliuolo said in a statement late Saturday.

Reservations for the first dose of the vaccine on Saturday were up 35 percent on the same time a week earlier, he added, without giving the actual figure.

Almost 41 million people in Italy have so far been fully vaccinated, government data shows — close to 76 percent of the population over the age of 12.

https://www.thelocal.it/20210919/vaccine-bookings-spike-after-italy-extends-covid-pass/

It may be draconian, but it works.

 

[Stanley Road]

https://www.thelocal.it/20210919/vaccine-bookings-spike-after-italy-extends-covid-pass/

It may be draconian, but it works.

Of course it works, it's happened here too, I just wish companies would do this but freedoms and all that shite

 

[Penna]

Of course it works, it's happened here too, I just wish companies would do this but freedoms and all that shite

Italy's taken it out of company hands, the law applies to the private sector too.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

https://www.thelocal.it/20210919/vaccine-bookings-spike-after-italy-extends-covid-pass/

It may be draconian, but it works.

It's ridiculous. "Vaccinate or lose your job". I'm pro vaccination (and thus am fully vaccinated with Moderna) but this is taking it too far. It should still be a choice. It's your body and you should be able to decide what you do with it.

The corona passport is being introduced here in The Netherlands. Don't know why, since even though government have been cutting funds for healthcare for decades hospitals are still doing alright. Alright being, yes they're understaffed but they have been for years. Over 80% of adults are fully vaxxed. Are they giving hospitals / health care more funds? No. But they're still introducing the passports. They're debating whether or not to make it legal for companies demand their employees to vaccinate. Why? Right now there is no problem. It doesn't make sense to introduce something as extreme as this now. It's not going to make Covid go away. We still have to live with it. It's unethical. Of course it "works". People don't want to lose their jobs and want to be able to go to a restaurant. But is this really the way to go about things?

 

[T00lsh3d]

I had the second Pfizer today. Was fine off the first dose, mostly fine off actually getting Covid….but this second dose has made me feel grim as feck. I had a big lunch afterwards (which in hindsight was dumb) and have felt sick as hell since. Why are the bloody microchips so much less palatable this time around?

 

[Penna]

It's ridiculous. "Vaccinate or lose your job". I'm pro vaccination (and thus am fully vaccinated with Moderna) but this is taking it too far. It should still be a choice. It's your body and you should be able to decide what you do with it.

The corona passport is being introduced here in The Netherlands. Don't know why, since even though government have been cutting funds for healthcare for decades hospitals are still doing alright. Over 80% of adults are fully vaxxed. Are they giving hospitals / health care more funds? No. But they're still introducing the passports. They're debating whether or not to make it legal for companies demand their employees to vaccinate. Why? Right now there is no problem. It doesn't make sense to introduce something as extreme as this now. It's not going to make Covid go away. We still have to live with it. It's unethical. Of course it "works". People don't want to lose their jobs and want to be able to go to a restaurant. But is this really the way to go about things?

I can of course appreciate all you say and I know a lot of people will feel the same. However, when people just can't be bothered getting a free vaccination or have been fooled by ridiculous conspiracy theories, why should everyone else be at higher risk because of them?

I may be biased because I took a risk getting the vaccination, as I'd previously had a very serious reaction to a supposedly-safe jab. When people who will have no ill-effects won't get it (well, apart from the minor discomfort it gives most people), it annoys me. If everyone had signed up when their age group was called, fewer people would have died and we'd all be back to normal in Europe.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

I can of course appreciate all you say and I know a lot of people will feel the same. However, when people just can't be bothered getting a free vaccination or have been fooled by ridiculous conspiracy theories, why should everyone else be at higher risk because of them?

I may be biased because I took a risk getting the vaccination, as I'd previously had a very serious reaction to a supposedly-safe jab. When people who will have no ill-effects won't get it (well, apart from the minor discomfort it gives most people), it annoys me. If everyone had signed up when their age group was called, fewer people would have died and we'd all be back to normal in Europe.

Well I don't know what the status is in the UK or wherever you are, but here in The Netherlands we're ditching social distancing but introducing the passports. Doesn't make sense to me. It's not just ridiculous conspiracy theories either. It's far too easy to put everyone who hasn't got their jab yet in the "anti-vax" category. There are people who want to be very sure that there's no long term effects. There are people with certain allergies who can't get the vaccine. They're being classed as anti-vaxxers, while they really aren't. I know several who've consulted their doctors and have been advised not to vaccinate because of the risks involved, but who now have to test daily to be able to participate in society. These people are being overlooked and it boils my piss. Especially when you consider there's countries like Denmark who have said well we've reached 80%+ vaccinations so the risks to society have been reduced enough for us to go back to normal. The world has to realize this virus isn't going anywhere and there's always going to be a risk you'll get it. We've significantly reduced the risk by vaccinating over 80% of the population. Let's move on. There's plenty of scientists who support this.

 

[Penna]

Well I don't know what the status is in the UK or wherever you are, but here in The Netherlands we're ditching social distancing but introducing the passports. Doesn't make sense to me. It's not just ridiculous conspiracy theories either. It's far too easy to put everyone who hasn't got their jab yet in the "anti-vax" category. There are people who want to be very sure that there's no long term effects. There are people with certain allergies who can't get the vaccine. They're being classed as anti-vaxxers, while they really aren't. I know several who've consulted their doctors and have been advised not to vaccinate because of the risks involved, but who now have to test daily to be able to participate in society. These people are being overlooked and it boils my piss. Especially when you consider there's countries like Denmark who have said well we've reached 80%+ vaccinations so the risks to society have been reduced enough for us to go back to normal. The world has to realize this virus isn't going anywhere and there's always going to be a risk you'll get it. We've significantly reduced the risk by vaccinating over 80% of the population. Let's move on. There's plenty of scientists who support this.

I'm in Italy. They've taken a hard line all along.

People who can't have the vaccine should get a certificate to say they are exempt and shouldn't have to go through the same hoops as other people who have chosen not to have it. I was nearly in that category myself. One doctor said "don't have it" and another said "it's a greater risk not to have it."

The people who want to wait - well, the pandemic is happening now. They cant really wait any longer. Millions of people have had the vaccines and the vast majority are fine.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Well I don't know what the status is in the UK or wherever you are, but here in The Netherlands we're ditching social distancing but introducing the passports. Doesn't make sense to me. It's not just ridiculous conspiracy theories either. It's far too easy to put everyone who hasn't got their jab yet in the "anti-vax" category. There are people who want to be very sure that there's no long term effects. There are people with certain allergies who can't get the vaccine. They're being classed as anti-vaxxers, while they really aren't. I know several who've consulted their doctors and have been advised not to vaccinate because of the risks involved, but who now have to test daily to be able to participate in society. These people are being overlooked and it boils my piss. Especially when you consider there's countries like Denmark who have said well we've reached 80%+ vaccinations so the risks to society have been reduced enough for us to go back to normal. The world has to realize this virus isn't going anywhere and there's always going to be a risk you'll get it. We've significantly reduced the risk by vaccinating over 80% of the population. Let's move on. There's plenty of scientists who support this.

The people who medically are unable to get the vaccine are such a small minority its statistically insignificant,(0.x%-0.0x%) furthermore, on a personal level those people who cant get the vaccine are relying on everyone else to get theirs for them to be safer.

The same people who "dont want to put something unknown in their body" are the same people who are eating shit from mcdonalds and processed foods, and taking drugs from someone outside a festival toilet. if this is something you actually care about, prove it.

Some absolutist, perfect diet, perfect fitness, body is a temple type who lives in a monastery somewhere, ok fair enough you do you, on your head be it. There's nowhere near enough of these people for them to make up the numbers of vaccine hesitant people. and for every unnecessary unvaccinated person in society, the great risk of more variants, more lockdowns and worst of all, a vaccine resistant variant.

There is no viable reason to not get the vaccine at this stage unless you are in such a specialised minority that you should be needing everyone else to get theirs.

 

[Carolina Red]

There are people who want to be very sure that there's no long term effects.

What does that even mean? What is “long term” in the context of this vaccine?

 

[ArjenIsM3]

The people who medically are unable to get the vaccine are such a small minority its statistically insignificant,(0.x%-0.0x%) furthermore, on a personal level those people who cant get the vaccine are relying on everyone else to get theirs for them to be safer.

The same people who "dont want to put something unknown in their body" are the same people who are eating shit from mcdonalds and processed foods, and taking drugs from someone outside a festival toilet. if this is something you actually care about, prove it.

Some absolutist, perfect diet, perfect fitness, body is a temple type who lives in a monastery somewhere, ok fair enough you do you, on your head be it. There's nowhere near enough of these people for them to make up the numbers of vaccine hesitant people. and for every unnecessary unvaccinated person in society, the great risk of more variants, more lockdowns and worst of all, a vaccine resistant variant.

There is no viable reason to not get the vaccine at this stage unless you are in such a specialised minority that you should be needing everyone else to get theirs.

Statistically insignificant. Well, that'll sure make my friend feel better about her life right now. She's a healthy 25 year old. The virus poses no greater risk to her than to any other healthy 25 year old. The vaccine does. Or at least that's what her doctors tell her. Yes, there are risks to not vaccinating, obviously. As with anything and everything. But the majority of society have chosen to get vaccinated, and that should be enough. 85% should be enough. Most of the risk is mitigated. People should still have a choice. Same goes with smoking, alcohol, driving, and anything else that could be a risk to someone else. Maybe in 10 years the doubters will be proven right. I hope not as the majority (including me) would be fecked, but it could happen. Why should they have to prove anything? Why is it so black and white? So they don't want to take the vaccine, that should only be allowed if they prove that they don't put anything else in their body that's potentially harmful? How does that even work? People should be free to do what they feel is right. Whatever that may be.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

What does that even mean? What is “long term” in the context of this vaccine?

From what I've heard it's a few more years at least. These vaccines have only been around for a short amount of time so in their minds there's no real proof that they don't cause long term damage. And I get that. I don't agree with it but I find it understandable.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Statistically insignificant. Well, that'll sure make my friend feel better about her life right now. She's a healthy 25 year old. The virus poses no greater risk to her than to any other healthy 25 year old. The vaccine does. Or at least that's what her doctors tell her. Yes, there are risks to not vaccinating, obviously. As with anything and everything. But the majority of society have chosen to get vaccinated, and that should be enough. 85% should be enough. Most of the risk is mitigated. People should still have a choice. Same goes with smoking, alcohol, driving, and anything else that could be a risk to someone else. Maybe in 10 years the doubters will be proven right. I hope not as the majority (including me) would be fecked, but it could happen. Why should they have to prove anything? Why is it so black and white? So they don't want to take the vaccine, that should only be allowed if they prove that they don't put anything else in their body that's potentially harmful? How does that even work? People should be free to do what they feel is right. Whatever that may be.

If you continue reading the sentence I specified exactly what you rambled on to say. making a pity party about your friend is irrelevant when in the next half of the sentence I said that she needs other people to get vaccinated as she cant...

 

[ArjenIsM3]

If you continue reading the sentence I specified exactly what you rambled on to say. making a pity party about your friend is irrelevant when in the next half of the sentence I said that she needs other people to get vaccinated as she cant...

She doesn't need anyone to do anything though does she? On second thought the government could make her life a lot easier that much is true

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

From what I've heard it's a few more years at least. These vaccines have only been around for a short amount of time so in their minds there's no real proof that they don't cause long term damage. And I get that. I don't agree with it but I find it understandable.

There has literally never been a vaccine in the history of humanity that has had any effects outside of 8 weeks post-administration. The notion that there might be long-term effects is pure fiction.

 

[Carolina Red]

From what I've heard it's a few more years at least. These vaccines have only been around for a short amount of time so in their minds there's no real proof that they don't cause long term damage. And I get that. I don't agree with it but I find it understandable.

A few years… good lord.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

A few years… good lord.

Does it really matter though? 85% vaccinated and rising. Hospitals doing relatively well. Does it really matter if say 10% choose not to vaccinate for whatever reason? We're never going to get 100%. And even if we do, it's not like you can't get or spread covid if you're vaccinated. Many virologists agree that covid is unlikely to go anywhere and that we should just get used to it.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Does it really matter though? 85% vaccinated and rising. Hospitals doing relatively well. Does it really matter if say 10% choose not to vaccinate for whatever reason? We're never going to get 100%. And even if we do, it's not like you can't get or spread covid if you're vaccinated. Many virologists agree that covid is unlikely to go anywhere and that we should just get used to it.

The first bolded is a ridiculous question, the answer to which is that yes of course it does. We've already seen a more virulent variant emerge to become the more dominant strain (delta). There has also recently been the emergence of the Mu strain, which looks to be more resistant to vaccine-derived antibodies - this is the danger of allowing a significant unvaccinated pool that allows COVID to mutate unhampered.

The second bolded is also completely incorrect - the vaccines reduce the chance of spreading COVID but do not make it impossible. And again, allowing the virus to propagate in permissive hosts just makes it more likely that the immunity provided by the vaccines will be rendered obsolete.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Does it really matter though? 85% vaccinated and rising. Hospitals doing relatively well. Does it really matter if say 10% choose not to vaccinate for whatever reason? We're never going to get 100%. And even if we do, it's not like you can't get or spread covid if you're vaccinated. Many virologists agree that covid is unlikely to go anywhere and that we should just get used to it.

I don’t think you understand how this works because you’ve got it completely backwards. If the vaccines completely stopped everyone who got one from ever catching or passing on covid then the difference between 85% and 95% really might not matter. Because the virus could be more or less wiped out anyway.

It’s because the virus can spread via vaccinated people (albeit at a much slower rate than in the unvaccinated) that it’s so important to vaccinate as many people as possible. The goal here is keeping people out of hospitals and the vaccines are absolutely excellent in this regard. But it’s a big fecking ask to rely on them to keep the un-vaccinated out of hospital.

 

[Stanley Road]

It's ridiculous. "Vaccinate or lose your job". I'm pro vaccination (and thus am fully vaccinated with Moderna) but this is taking it too far. It should still be a choice. It's your body and you should be able to decide what you do with it.

The corona passport is being introduced here in The Netherlands. Don't know why, since even though government have been cutting funds for healthcare for decades hospitals are still doing alright. Alright being, yes they're understaffed but they have been for years. Over 80% of adults are fully vaxxed. Are they giving hospitals / health care more funds? No. But they're still introducing the passports. They're debating whether or not to make it legal for companies demand their employees to vaccinate. Why? Right now there is no problem. It doesn't make sense to introduce something as extreme as this now. It's not going to make Covid go away. We still have to live with it. It's unethical. Of course it "works". People don't want to lose their jobs and want to be able to go to a restaurant. But is this really the way to go about things?

I have a choice too, I don't want to be in an office with unvaxxed people

 

[ArjenIsM3]

The first bolded is a ridiculous question, the answer to which is that yes of course it does. We've already seen a more virulent variant emerge to become the more dominant strain (delta). There has also recently been the emergence of the Mu strain, which looks to be more resistant to vaccine-derived antibodies - this is the danger of allowing a significant unvaccinated pool that allows COVID to mutate unhampered.

The second bolded is also completely incorrect - the vaccines reduce the chance of spreading COVID but do not make it impossible. And again, allowing the virus to propagate in permissive hosts just makes it more likely that the immunity provided by the vaccines will be rendered obsolete.

Maybe I should have worded it better. It matters, yes. It would be nice if we got to 95%. But at this point in time when our healthcare system can handle the load do we still need all these measures? There's always going to be the risk of a new super strain. Especially considering there's countries who haven't vaccinated anywhere near as much people as we have. But at what point do you say enough is enough, let's go back to normal?

The bolded part about you saying what I said was incorrect, is incorrect. You're basically saying the same thing I did. I never said vaccines make it impossible to spread the virus. I said you can still contract and spread Covid if you're vaccinated.

I don’t think you understand how this works because you’ve got it completely backwards. If the vaccines completely stopped everyone who got one from ever catching or passing on covid then the difference between 85% and 95% really might not matter. Because the virus could be more or less wiped out anyway.

It’s because the virus can spread via vaccinated people (albeit at a much slower rate than in the unvaccinated) that it’s so important to vaccinate as many people as possible. The goal here is keeping people out of hospitals and the vaccines are absolutely excellent in this regard. But it’s a big fecking ask to rely on them to keep the un-vaccinated out of hospital.

I get that vaccines are helping to keep people out of hospitals. That's basically the point of them and why I took it. And yes, the more we vaccinate the better. My point is we're never going to vaccinate everyone and with 85% and hospitals doing alright shouldn't we be giving more freedom back to society instead of doing the opposite by implementing ethically debatable passports? Like I said the virus is going nowhere and there's always going to be people ending up in hospital. Same as with smoking and alcohol and a million other things. There's always risks in society. I've reached the point where I feel the benefits of opening society back up outweigh the risks. I could be wrong of course, but that's how I feel

 

[ArjenIsM3]

I have a choice too, I don't want to be in an office with unvaxxed people

In The Netherlands you'd have a hard time considering privacy laws prohibit you from asking employees about medical stuff. Or, well you're allowed to ask but they don't have to answer or something like that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I get that vaccines are helping to keep people out of hospitals. That's basically the point of them and why I took it. And yes, the more we vaccinate the better.

Bearing in mind what you say here, I don’t understand why you seem to be arguing against measures intended to increase vaccine uptake.

 

[Carolina Red]

85% vaccinated and rising. Hospitals doing relatively well. Does it really matter if say 10% choose not to vaccinate for whatever reason?

Speak for yourself. I live in a state with under 50% of people vaccinated and our hospitals are so full that they can’t hardly treat new patients.

@TheMagicFoolBus and @Pogue Mahone have covered the rest already.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Maybe I should have worded it better. It matters, yes. It would be nice if we got to 95%. But at this point in time when our healthcare system can handle the load do we still need all these measures? There's always going to be the risk of a new super strain. Especially considering there's countries who haven't vaccinated anywhere near as much people as we have. But at what point do you say enough is enough, let's go back to normal?

The bolded part about you saying what I said was incorrect, is incorrect. You're basically saying the same thing I did. I never said vaccines make it impossible to spread the virus. I said you can still contract and spread Covid if you're vaccinated.


I get that vaccines are helping to keep people out of hospitals. That's basically the point of them and why I took it. And yes, the more we vaccinate the better. My point is we're never going to vaccinate everyone and with 85% and hospitals doing alright shouldn't we be giving more freedom back to society instead of doing the opposite by implementing ethically debatable passports? Like I said the virus is going nowhere and there's always going to be people ending up in hospital. Same as with smoking and alcohol and a million other things. There's always risks in society. I've reached the point where I feel the benefits of opening society back up outweigh the risks. I could be wrong of course, but that's how I feel

Apologies for mis-reading your original post - that's on me 100% and I feel bad for mischaracterising your position.

Fundamentally I guess I just disagree with your premise - I do think we still need these measures. Part of the problem is the nature of COVID disease progression - it's extremely protracted and massively labour-intensive for hospital staff. Whilst right now hospitals might be ok, there still remains little margin for error in terms of ventilators, ICU beds in negative pressure rooms, etc. Pushing the population to get vaccinated to avoid future doomsday scenarios cannot be a bad thing - given the nature of this virus we as a society have to accept some degree of collective responsibility.

 

[Stanley Road]

In The Netherlands you'd have a hard time considering privacy laws prohibit you from asking employees about medical stuff. Or, well you're allowed to ask but they don't have to answer or something like that.

Correct, you can ask but no need to answer, there goes my choice right there, maybe my freedom too.

 

[Paxi]

Okay I’m just going to come out and say it — I’m not getting jabbed.

Truth is, I have really bad anxiety and if I get jabbed I will think that Ill have myocarditis or some blood clots. Before you unload on me, consider this, I used to be an athlete but I have completely grinded my life to a hault. I used to take all sorts of shit every weekend but now I DM Pogue to see if it’s alright that I mix CBD oil with a tiny dose of beta blockers. I mean there is no way I could take these jabs.

 

[jojojo]

Okay I’m just going to come out and say it — I’m not getting jabbed.

Truth is, I have really bad anxiety and if I get jabbed I will think that Ill have myocarditis or some blood clots. Before you unload on me, consider this, I used to be an athlete but I have completely grinded my life to a hault. I used to take all sorts of shit every weekend but now I DM Pogue to see if it’s alright that I mix CBD oil with a tiny dose of beta blockers. I mean there is no way I could take these jabs.

Have you had covid already?

Covid has been tough and there's no easy way to talk about it, or to avoid the anxiety - whether around the jab or the virus.

In general terms - Covid is a killer. Myocarditis and blood clots are more common after catching covid unprotected than after taking the vaccine. I know that doesn't help reduce the anxiety, but it's useful for everyone to remember that this is isn't about risk or no risk.

Covid won't be going away. Over the next couple of years we will all be exposed to it multiple times. When we catch it there will be an element of luck about how serious it will be - the vaccine reduces our chances of stopping it before the infection takes hold, and improves our chances of it not being serious even if we do get symptoms.

But if you don't want the vaccine then you still need to do your bit to avoid infecting other people.

If you're in the UK test yourself a couple of times a week with a LFT test kit - symptoms or not. If you get a positive LFT or get symptoms, quarantine yourself and do a PCR test. Wear a mask when you're indoors with other people. In the UK this winter, if you're living any kind of normal life, you will catch it, just try not to pass it on - don't be the super-spreader at the wedding or the one who gives it to one of the bereaved at a funeral.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Bearing in mind what you say here, I don’t understand why you seem to be arguing against measures intended to increase vaccine uptake.

While I'm pro vaccination (and as I've said I'm fully vaccinated), that doesn't mean that I think the end always justifies the means. There are many factors government have to weigh against each other and they have to find the right balance. In my opinion things like freedom of choice and privacy are brushed aside too easily and we have to consider the precedent this sets. It also doesn't sit right with me that our government are pouring tons of money into stuff like Covid passports and the means to enforce them while they consistently refuse to provide more funds to healthcare in general. It has been budget cut after budget cut for healthcare for years despite warnings from hospitals and other organisations. Flu season has been tough for hospitals for years. Still, the current government are blocking motions from other parties to increase funding for healthcare, even now that we're in a health crisis.

Speak for yourself. I live in a state with under 50% of people vaccinated and our hospitals are so full that they can’t hardly treat new patients.

@TheMagicFoolBus and @Pogue Mahone have covered the rest already.

Obviously everything I've said is based on the situation here in The Netherlands where we have an 80+% (around 85% at the moment I believe) vaccination rate and hospitals are doing, relatively, fine. How come vaccine uptake in your state is so low?

Correct, you can ask but no need to answer, there goes my choice right there, maybe my freedom too.

In your case maybe ignorance is bliss. If you don't know that your colleague isn't vaccinated..

 

[noodlehair]

I get that vaccines are helping to keep people out of hospitals. That's basically the point of them and why I took it. And yes, the more we vaccinate the better. My point is we're never going to vaccinate everyone and with 85% and hospitals doing alright shouldn't we be giving more freedom back to society instead of doing the opposite by implementing ethically debatable passports? Like I said the virus is going nowhere and there's always going to be people ending up in hospital. Same as with smoking and alcohol and a million other things. There's always risks in society. I've reached the point where I feel the benefits of opening society back up outweigh the risks. I could be wrong of course, but that's how I feel

The problem is the hospitals are doing relatively fine now (in one sense, in another we are being told we all need to pay more NI just to get them back on their feet), but then there's the winter months. Something a quarter as bad as last year hospital numbers wise would still be an extremely bad situation at that point.

That said I'm not really pro vaccine passports either as some people have legitimate reasons to be concerned over a vaccine. They are also to my mind a bit pointless when you don't actually need one to prove you are double vaccinated, and they would only work with a get around of being able to provide a negative test instead, which renders them completely pointless anyway as surely it would make more sense for everyone to prove a negative test for a large scale event or gathering anyway.

I'm all for measures that encourage everyone who can get a vaccine to get one. The problem I have with the passports is they just seem like a dumb idea, and there's an element of people latching onto them to try and enforce others to have vaccines in order to enjoy fairly basic freedoms, which is just stupid.

It's also a bit of a weird road to take when we can't even keep up with vaccinating the people who WANT to be vaccinated yet. We've done well to get to where we have but surely the bigger concerns at the moment are this and the decreasing effectiveness of the original vaccines against the dellta variant.

 

[golden_blunder]

Statistically insignificant. Well, that'll sure make my friend feel better about her life right now. She's a healthy 25 year old. The virus poses no greater risk to her than to any other healthy 25 year old. The vaccine does. Or at least that's what her doctors tell her. Yes, there are risks to not vaccinating, obviously. As with anything and everything. But the majority of society have chosen to get vaccinated, and that should be enough. 85% should be enough. Most of the risk is mitigated. People should still have a choice. Same goes with smoking, alcohol, driving, and anything else that could be a risk to someone else. Maybe in 10 years the doubters will be proven right. I hope not as the majority (including me) would be fecked, but it could happen. Why should they have to prove anything? Why is it so black and white? So they don't want to take the vaccine, that should only be allowed if they prove that they don't put anything else in their body that's potentially harmful? How does that even work? People should be free to do what they feel is right. Whatever that may be.

The more get vaccinated the less chance of virus variants and the sooner we get out of this. It’s really that simple

 

[Wolverine]

Ireland's a great example of vaccine certificates in action after a helluva long lockdown compared to other European countries, correct me lads if I'm wrong but essentially
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...all-covid-19-restrictions-october-2021-08-31/

- 80% of over 12s are fully vaccinated
- 90% of adults double jabbed
- vaccine certificates in bars and restaurants due to be dropped in later October due to vaccine uptake, with phased easing in other areas
- non-essential workers back in office from today

One of the concerns regarding vaccine passports/passes is their implications in the long term for freedoms, but surely this is proof of concept for efficacy of vaccine mandate in action as a good, society-benefitting, temporary measure and surely counters worries regarding tyranical government overreach?

 

[Carolina Red]

How come vaccine uptake in your state is so low?

Because I live in a Trumper / GQP hellscape

 

[RedRover]

Had my second jab a few weeks ago, 37 years old, Moderna. Felt fine until day or so later when I started getting palpitations. Checked online and the official advice was to contact the docs. The GP seemed unconcerned but sent me for an ECG, which showed nothing, although by that time I had some mild chest pain.

They seemed really reluctant to actually engage with me on this. I've been sent for a 24 hour tape, but having read some (very much) anecdotal stuff online about how this has been more common than is generally reported, I stared on ordinary ibuprofen to take down any mild heart inflammation and now I'm pretty much fine. Scary stuff though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ireland's a great example of vaccine certificates in action after a helluva long lockdown compared to other European countries, correct me lads if I'm wrong but essentially
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...all-covid-19-restrictions-october-2021-08-31/

- 80% of over 12s are fully vaccinated
- 90% of adults double jabbed
- vaccine certificates in bars and restaurants due to be dropped in later October due to vaccine uptake, with phased easing in other areas
- non-essential workers back in office from today

One of the concerns regarding vaccine passports/passes is their implications in the long term for freedoms, but surely this is proof of concept for efficacy of vaccine mandate in action as a good, society-benefitting, temporary measure and surely counters worries regarding tyranical government overreach?

Yup. That’s my take on it too. And everything you’ve said there is correct.

 

[RedRover]

Ireland's a great example of vaccine certificates in action after a helluva long lockdown compared to other European countries, correct me lads if I'm wrong but essentially
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...all-covid-19-restrictions-october-2021-08-31/

- 80% of over 12s are fully vaccinated
- 90% of adults double jabbed
- vaccine certificates in bars and restaurants due to be dropped in later October due to vaccine uptake, with phased easing in other areas
- non-essential workers back in office from today

One of the concerns regarding vaccine passports/passes is their implications in the long term for freedoms, but surely this is proof of concept for efficacy of vaccine mandate in action as a good, society-benefitting, temporary measure and surely counters worries regarding tyranical government overreach?

I think that's the problem some people have. Once the genie is out of the bottle, history suggests it's difficult to put it back in.

On the face of it, passports are sensible, but the idea of discriminating against someone who chooses not to do something (as they should be free to do) is something I'm pretty uncomfortable with.

A lot of what you see online about things like passports i.e. likening it to Nazi Germany is clearly nonsense, but at the heart of the argument there's a relevant issue with implications in the future.

There's also an issue, I think with encouraging vaccines (as, in this instance we should) but failing to address the general issue of poor health and obesity which is clearly having a huge impact.

 

[Paxi]

Have you had covid already?

Covid has been tough and there's no easy way to talk about it, or to avoid the anxiety - whether around the jab or the virus.

In general terms - Covid is a killer. Myocarditis and blood clots are more common after catching covid unprotected than after taking the vaccine. I know that doesn't help reduce the anxiety, but it's useful for everyone to remember that this is isn't about risk or no risk.

Covid won't be going away. Over the next couple of years we will all be exposed to it multiple times. When we catch it there will be an element of luck about how serious it will be - the vaccine reduces our chances of stopping it before the infection takes hold, and improves our chances of it not being serious even if we do get symptoms.

But if you don't want the vaccine then you still need to do your bit to avoid infecting other people.

If you're in the UK test yourself a couple of times a week with a LFT test kit - symptoms or not. If you get a positive LFT or get symptoms, quarantine yourself and do a PCR test. Wear a mask when you're indoors with other people. In the UK this winter, if you're living any kind of normal life, you will catch it, just try not to pass it on - don't be the super-spreader at the wedding or the one who gives it to one of the bereaved at a funeral.

I have had Covid. Felt rough for a couple of days but mostly fine after some mild symptoms. So yeah I have an anxiety around my health. You could say I suffer from hypochondria well my gp certainly thinks so. I take the vaccine and I’ll completely freak out. Again I’m pro vaccine I think it’s good that people are vaccinated and it’s obviously saving a lot of lives.