Specially because they are the only ones with China that are selling the vaccine outside their borders without waiting to vaccinate their whole population and at cheap prices
The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
- Thread starter Badunk
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Specially because they are the only ones with China that are selling the vaccine outside their borders without waiting to vaccinate their whole population and at cheap prices
That isn't really true, as AZ have signed up to allow the serum institute of India to produce huge numbers of doses, both for itself and also for other LMIC around the world, some of which has already started being shipped out.
As for the Sputnik vaccine, great news. Some of the skepticism before was definitely due to a generally very western-centred view of the world but also in fairness due to the fact that both Chinese and Russian vaccines were being administered in their countries without proper phase 3 trials having been conducted.
Now we've seemingly got sone very good data on Sputnik (and more coming I believe) I hope to see it more widely in use.
Is it really that much of a nightmare? I thought so as well with the freezer storage settings but I hadn`t realized up until last week that it can be stored up to five days in a normal fridge before it expires. So you can store it in a centralized facility with big storage capacity at -70°C and then distribute it through regional centers/doctors with normal fridges. Of course still not an easy task in the Global south but for rich European nations I don`t see a big issue.
I think the plan in countries that as of yet not plan to use AZ for +65 is to use Pfizer/Moderna for +70 age groups and AZ for younger key and health care workers.
Pfizer is a lot more challenging logistically because it has to be handled with extreme care, can't shake it otherwise manufacturer says you risk reducing efficacy because of apparently the nanoparticle being fragile. So dilution is a challenge.
I think there is a place for it for sure, as we've managed to roll it out in the big centres without much of an issue but the AZ one is much much simpler in all aspects.
I think the issues come as you break down the batches. Locally they were ok with using Pfizer for bigger carehomes, but for the smaller ones (and the elderly/vulnerable housebound) the process was too difficult - too labour intensive and too much wastage.
If you look at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...fessionals-on-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine
You can get an idea of what happens as you start to get down to the vial level. One defrosted vial contains 6 doses, but can't be transported again once diluted. So final preparation has to be done on location.
That makes each visit quite a long one and they have to discard any unused doses. Not impossible to manage but expensive on manpower and lost doses. Hence the difficulty with smaller residential units and the housebound. The vaccination centres that the GPs (and now pharmacies) have set up are working more like production lines.
The AZ is much closer to the "put a bunch of them in a briefcase in the morning and start driving around" pattern they'd follow with flu jabs.
Multiples of six won’t be a problem for any care home you can think of. Especially when you factor in staff. It’s all about planning. In Ireland care homes have been inviting local GPs to use up any remaining shots from the last vial.
Housebound elderly are a challenge alright. Not sure how you fix that with the mRNA vaccines. Although nobody is truly housebound if you provide the right support.
Any sign of the data on the Chinese vaccine getting published? They’ve been excellent at publishing all their covid data so far.
I think it's a local thing, they've done most of their carehomes and they've done the staff at the others. They've got a few small units with 4-10 residents round here.
They could have invited other people onto the carehomes sites to use the remaining doses - but they won't do that. So unless the surgery or whatever is in walking distance the guidance is to discard. The logistics aren't impossible, with sufficient staff - I just don't think they felt it was going to work with the timings they've got on using batches. In any case they knew they were going to get more AZ and of course the UK haven't advised against using it in the over 65s.
Got my appointment for my second jab later today. Was absolutely fine after the first so not worried at all. My friend is working at another trust giving vaccines and she told me that each hospital is getting fined for any doses that are wasted. Now I know why there are calls to my department most evenings asking if anybody needs theirs as they have 1 or two left over from people not turning up.
Distribution forecast for COVAX has been released: https://www.gavi.org/sites/default/files/covid/covax/COVAX-Interim-Distribution-Forecast.pdf
I think AZ is still awaiting WHO approval, but hopefully that comes through soon. Projected numbers still in the hundreds of millions for first half of 2021, so this needs to ramp up rapidly to get the world in better shape. There's a relatively small number of Pfizer/BNT doses on the list, but it implies that if the logistical challenges can be resolved, that could expand quite a bit.
I think AZ is still awaiting WHO approval, but hopefully that comes through soon. Projected numbers still in the hundreds of millions for first half of 2021, so this needs to ramp up rapidly to get the world in better shape. There's a relatively small number of Pfizer/BNT doses on the list, but it implies that if the logistical challenges can be resolved, that could expand quite a bit.
If I've read today's news right, they're highlighting AZ's reduction in transmission, and it remaining effective for 12 weeks, which is good, but not mentioning they seem to be confirming only 75% effective, which is a bit disappointing, I was hoping with more figures the efficacy would be more like the alternatives. I might be wrong. In other news I just got my first jab booked for Sunday, and I'm 66, so they're well ahead of schedule in sunny Lancashire. Well, very grey and drizzly Lancashire really, as usual.
Switzerland has refused to approve it today, stating insufficient data. Like the US they will wait for the results of the new trial.
https://www.thelocal.ch/20210203/in...rland-declines-to-approve-astrazeneca-vaccine
True, but so far it will roll out in the rich countries, because that agreement comes from AZ itself but not from UK, while Sputnik and the chinese vaccines comes from the government. All in all, is good news
It's 100% effective against hospitalisations and serious illness. There's about a 1 in 4 chance that you might still get the sniffles or at worst a bout of the flu.
Yes, they've made that clear, and I would rather have the AZ than none at all, that's for sure. Not that you know which you'll get of course, in the UK at any rate.
None of those secondary endpoints have reached statistical significance. As time passes and more and more analyses are done we’ll get a better idea but, for now, the only outcome we can be confident about is the primary endpoint. Which is reduction in symptomatic disease.
That’s interesting. The first European regulator to say no. The French/German/Italian etc restrictions were about how the vaccine is used rather than whether it should have a license (as the EMA decision applies in all those states)
Highly impressed by the UK vaccine program, 10m is a lot, we've managed 300k.
is there any hope for us?
Yes, Bob and No
Yes. Loads. We’ve three very good vaccines already approved. Another two or three with great trial results already out. They’ll be coming on line later this year. With results expected from another vaccine due a month today. Compared to how grim things looked in spring last year we’ve an embarrassment of riches in terms of vaccines. Back then we couldn’t be sure we’d even get one vaccine as effective as this lot.
Plus summer’s on the way and social distancing is a hell of a lot easier when it’s not pissing rain/freezing.
We’ll be grand. It’s a matter of when not if we can get back to normal. Hang in there!
Thanks this is encouraging from someone with an actual educated opinion.
I am struggling this week I have to say. Its been bleak
It’s shit man. We all have ups and downs but the whole thing is a fecking grind. We’ll get there though. Don’t forget, January/February is always a bit of a downer. Spring is round the corner and that always cheers us up, pandemic or no pandemic.
My sister-in-law is a dentist and does the dental work in a nearby care home, which meant she got the jab, too. She told that exact story, whereby a GP had rung a few patients to ask if they'd be willing to be on standby to get the vaccine if it became available that morning.
She also told a story, very early on, just before the furore about vaccines being given out of turn, about her friend, who is a dentist, marching his sister who is in her early 40s (who works in pissing P.R.) down to the hospital after he'd had this and basically just asking for a jab and being given one. Which led to around two dozen of her friends doing the same the next day. Bit of a piss take, really.
A lot of that going on. Although if the only alternative is binning shots at the end of the day then it’s all good. The people who are higher up the list probably can’t rock up to clinics at the end of the day on the off chance there are jabs going to waste.
IV heard of a few going to get there second shots and being told that the whole lot were given away for the day, the people going for the second shot worked in the hospital to make it worse.
Completely agree, if it's the only alternative. It doesn't seem to be in some cases, though.
That seems crazy. They surely can’t be giving away shots allocated to people who are booked in. Where did that happen?
I have a bunch of friends working in various hospitals and none of them mentioned anything other than a handful of spare shots being given away at the end of the day, when they were going in the bin otherwise. Are you sure this isn’t one of those made up social media rumours trying to piss people off?!?
Israeli data starting to come through now with some interesting early mass monitoring research.
1. That the Pfizer vaccine does seem to kick into action after about 14 days, and that by day 21 it's working well, offering high eficacy from that single dose.
2. That immediately after having the jab (first 8 days) people are twice as likely to catch covid. The researchers think this may be a behavioural change (becoming less cautious) in the newly vaccinated, but obviously there's a huge question to be answered there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ab-gives-90-immunity-from-covid-after-21-days
1. That the Pfizer vaccine does seem to kick into action after about 14 days, and that by day 21 it's working well, offering high eficacy from that single dose.
2. That immediately after having the jab (first 8 days) people are twice as likely to catch covid. The researchers think this may be a behavioural change (becoming less cautious) in the newly vaccinated, but obviously there's a huge question to be answered there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ab-gives-90-immunity-from-covid-after-21-days
Either that or chinese whispers turning an event or mistake into a widespread issue.
I’d need to read the full paper (as opposed to the abstract linked by the Guardian) but don’t know how their claim in point 1 can be in any way robust.
For starters, they’ve no placebo arm to compare with so even using the word “efficacy” is taking a lot of poetic license. Then you’re trying to compare the number of cases picked up during such a narrow three day window. How do you even begin to power that sort of analysis? Worst of all, they seem to use day 0 - 12 as their baseline incidence rate for comparison, only to point out that there’s a big spike in cases around day 8. So that’s bound to artificially inflated “efficacy” in days 14-21.
Perhaps I’m missing something but this looks like pretty bad science. I suspect it will be crucified in peer review.
Lets hope this is it and not ADE although an effect so early would be unusual for ADE if I'm reading things correctly. I'd also have expected them to find ADE in the trials if it were an big issue.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5
I've only skimmed the rest of the review.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.01.21250957v1.full.pdf
As you say it relies on population wide positive covid tests, vaccinated v unvaccinated , to effectively guess how many cases there should/would have been - there's no actual placebo group. They reckon because both the vaccinated/unvaccinated groups are big and the case numbers are high there's enough data in the noise to extract something.
As to whether the statistical leap is a leap too far, I don't know, I don't feel close enough to the numbers or the (un)vaccinated population characteristics to judge if that is unreasonable.
That early uptick in case numbers does bother me though. I guess some of it is just pure bad luck with people suddenly finding themselves in queues at the vaccine stations and taking taxis to get there etc. But I did wonder if the general "under the weather" feeling that some people get in the day or so after the vaccine might make them more susceptible to getting covid. Like catching flu to go with the cold you've already got. It's another situation where you lose data by not having a placebo group.
Struggling myself this week. On the verge of tears the last couple of days. I also got a job rejection yesterday and another this morning which hasn’t helped
Surely they can check the records and see who lives locally? A quick database search would return that info. I live 10 mins away from Connolly hospital for example so I’d be pissed if people rocking up and creating a fuss we’re getting it first
Stick it with it mate. It's worth it in the end. Half the time these rejections are for bullshit reasons and aren't even looked at properly (in which case you wouldn't want to work for them anyway). I got around 25 rejections before getting my job, and it was no different to any of the others I'd applied for.
Here if you want a chat.
Word for word what happened to me on Tuesday. I spent several hours staring blankly at a wall hating everything about life and myself. It took all my energy to even put United on. I know you know all the logic and probably very accurate advice behind not taking it personally, but when you rack up rejection after rejection after rejection it's hard to stay resilient and not take it to heart. Sorry you're going through it too.
Main thing I'd say is try not to take it personally. There's all sorts of reasons CVs are rejected or not read.Word for word what happened to me on Tuesday. I spent several hours staring blankly at a wall hating everything about life and myself. It took all my energy to even put United on. I know you know all the logic and probably very accurate advice behind not taking it personally, but when you rack up rejection after rejection after rejection it's hard to stay resilient and not take it to heart. Sorry you're going through it too.
I applied for about 15 positions that were a bit beneath my skills and I got rejected every single time. The job I ended up getting was probably a step up for my skills. It's weird in that way and you've just got to keep playing the game, you'll win in the end.
I hear that, its a struggle for almost all of us. This too will pass though, and thankfully we're closer to the end than we are to when this shiteshow started. I was close to nailing my dream job back in March until it was cancelled because of the pandemic, really put me down for a good few weeks. Though I'm back on my feet now with a great new gig. You'll get there, hang on!