We've been to three of the last five European Champions League finals. feck how far fans of other clubs think our team can take us in Europe. cnuts.
The "We Don't Actually Need A Midfielder" Thread
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That statistic recently went from 3 of the last 4 to 3 of the last 5, the worry is the ratio will continue to grow.
Alternatively, we failed to win the Champions League in the last four seasons because of our weak midfield.
We basically need to consolidate Scholes, Giggs and Fletcher into one midfielder who can play 45 games a season.
How can you even say that? There is a multitude of reasons we went out of the CL the last few years.
Barce have failed to win the CL the last few seasons because of Messi. That is the equivalent of what you have just written.
Sure. Our midfield was one of them. Nothing wrong with pointing out weaknesses in our team. We're not perfect.
How can you even say that? There is a multitude of reasons we went out of the CL the last few years.
Barce have failed to win the CL the last few seasons because of Messi. That is the equivalent of what you have just written.
No idea how you can compare our exits in the competition to Barcelona's.
adexkola said that we won't get far in Europe with our midfield, well I'm saying that we've got pretty far with it a number of times in recent years. Does he expect to win the CL every year before anyone can say the club's done well in Europe? I'd say that three finals and one trophy in five seasons is pretty fecking excellent to be honest; hats well and truly off to the shit midfield who won't get far in Europe when only Barcelona's has a better record over the last half decade.
He was certainly overstating the case. But you have to be careful using our recent history to demonstrate how good we are, when part of our problem in midfield is the aging of a couple of very fine players. Three years ago Scholes and Giggs were three years younger.
I've been reluctant to engage in this debate as I do believe our midfield crew is actually pretty decent, despite what has been a hostile debate at times over the last few seasons.
However, we should come to grips with the very high likelihood that Scholes and Giggs will retire -- for good -- at the end of this season and that we'll need to replace those two with one or two mids. Maybe Powell rises to the occasion and maybe Tunnicliffe comes through, but I actually do believe we could use a destroyer type of midfielder to compliment the personnel we already have.
Just one opinion from out here in the wilderness.
However, we should come to grips with the very high likelihood that Scholes and Giggs will retire -- for good -- at the end of this season and that we'll need to replace those two with one or two mids. Maybe Powell rises to the occasion and maybe Tunnicliffe comes through, but I actually do believe we could use a destroyer type of midfielder to compliment the personnel we already have.
Just one opinion from out here in the wilderness.
Scholes, Giggs and Fletcher should not start next season in our squad. I do not mince my words, but I would literally consider it to be an embarassment starting Ryan Giggs in Premier League games next year.
This would leave Carrick (32), Anderson (25) and Cleverley (24). We also have Nick Powell, but I'm not counting a player who is not in the squad to contribute at the moment. A player who is there to get minutes when we couldn't give much of a feck about what happens (i.e, very rarely) is not a current real midfield 'option', given that Fergie would not start him in the middle in the league before Jones, Rooney or even Rafael I doubt.
I'd say we need two, personally. Anderson as one of the only three senior midfielders in the squad could very easily lead to us needing to play Powell every game for months, and Fergie's inevitable reluctance to do so will result in him playing someone who isn't even a midfielder there. I'd look at a more defensive and more offensive option, personally. Defensive especially, as I do genuinely rate what we have coming through the ranks in a more offensive capacity right now. I'd take a Diame/Wanyama myself. I also think Thiago Alcantara may be a gettable option, but I'll limit the muppetness in here.
This would leave Carrick (32), Anderson (25) and Cleverley (24). We also have Nick Powell, but I'm not counting a player who is not in the squad to contribute at the moment. A player who is there to get minutes when we couldn't give much of a feck about what happens (i.e, very rarely) is not a current real midfield 'option', given that Fergie would not start him in the middle in the league before Jones, Rooney or even Rafael I doubt.
I'd say we need two, personally. Anderson as one of the only three senior midfielders in the squad could very easily lead to us needing to play Powell every game for months, and Fergie's inevitable reluctance to do so will result in him playing someone who isn't even a midfielder there. I'd look at a more defensive and more offensive option, personally. Defensive especially, as I do genuinely rate what we have coming through the ranks in a more offensive capacity right now. I'd take a Diame/Wanyama myself. I also think Thiago Alcantara may be a gettable option, but I'll limit the muppetness in here.
I don't think we'll go far in Europe this season, for 3 reasons
1. Our midfield players. Anderson and Cleverley seem to be injury prone. Carrick is ever dependable, but he can't do it by himself. Fletcher is a pale shadow of his 2008-2009 form. Powell is still young and learning. Scholes and Giggs...
2. Our defense has been very porous this season. Vidic out doesn't help matters, and our midfield is so immobile that opposing midfielders regularly run at our defense. Nowhere near the defense that set records domestically and Europe a few years ago. That may change midseason.
3. Our tactics play right into the opposition's hand. Chelsea were shit last year, but they had the sense to put 10 men behind the ball. We couldn't do that, watch us in our last Champions League final for proof.
Europe is a hard minefield to navigate, even the best teams fail to retain the trophy. I see this United team as mostly potential, with the building blocks for another European run of a few seasons. Right now, I don't think the team has what it takes to go far, bar the easy fixture.
What new players are needed depends on what Ferguson has in mind for the existing personnel. Any or all of Rooney, Powell, Kagawa and Jones could be part of his solution.
this thread is two and half years old and people are still debating the obvious need of a quality cm
Actually that isn't what determines what is needed, it is what determines whether we will make the same mistake again. What is needed is what is needed. Those players are not proper central midfielders, except perhaps Powell, and he's clearly not ready to play a part of any significance.
Quoted for the sake of mockery in May.
It's amazing, isn't it? So painfully obvious to you and me, but sacrilege to Fergie and a significant minority of the Caf.
you tell him ciderlad, feck the midfield...It's ON!
Can't be bothered to look through the recent posts. I know without looking it's the same tripe as always. Rinse and repeat. We'll get Strootman and be done with it until the next manager arrives.
What you mean by "needed"? Needed to win the league? Needed to win the treble? Depending on the answer, what is needed could be anything from Xavi and Iniesta to Schweinsteiger to nobody. A team's needs are rather abstract. Focusing on what/who is attainable and what they would bring is more concrete and realistic. Maybe the players who are attainable to Manchester United are not much better than what he has and he believes he has an in-house solution.
Two out of De Rossi, Gundogan, Bender twins, Strootman, Fellaini, Naingollan (and counting that we lost Dembele for a very reasonable price, for a lower team) would be a wet dream. There are some really viable options there.
Dead on.
Scholes and Giggs were great players - some of the best infact. They are no longer, and the players we have in that area of the park aren't (at least at this stage in terms of teh younger players) anywhere near that standard.
It doesn't take a genius to see that the club has a great attack - which has (and to a degree is) papering over the cracks, and that's fine, as long as it continues.
If the club are serious about winning the CL the standard of the side needs to be raised in areas where they are weak. For me we concede to many goals because the midfield doesn't protect the defence enough - conceding too may shots on goal in general.
If that's the case then we're in trouble over the next few seasons as City and Chelsea continue to stregthen.
It'll also potentially be a disaster when we try to bring in a big manager to succeed Fergie and fail because he wants money to spend to put his stamp on the squad.
If there's an "in house" solution then great - but from what I've seen I personally can't see it.
Powell?
He has looked pretty good from the limited appearances in the first team. What are the chances of him breaking into first team contention next year?
He has looked pretty good from the limited appearances in the first team. What are the chances of him breaking into first team contention next year?
Why, though, in Fergie's case?
He's stubborn as feck, if he wanted to bring in a midfielder he would've done so. He must think that the options currently available are good enough.
Fletcher, Scholes and Giggs have all been poor this season, quite predictably, for various reasons. Some of them to do with the use of them, granted, but their legs aren't there.
Anderson's got another medium-long term injury and isn't fit enough to play 90 minutes even when he's not injured, predictably.
Phil Jones isn't a midfielder, predictably.
Nick Powell isn't ready, predictably.
Which leaves us with notorious slow-starter Michael Carrick, who predictably is Michael Carrick still, and Tom Cleverley as our only semi-reliable midfielders. Factor in that Carrick's played about three good matches this season, and well.. It's absolutely baffling. I cannot fathom why SAF continues to ignore this problem area.
It's absolutely baffling why a manager who has got us 6 points top of the league while playing all our hardest games away and winning each one would be happy with our options in the most important area of the pitch. I am honestly struggling to see why he's happy with what we have.
It sure is, given what happened in Europe, the cups and against City last season.
We'll be found out, probably not in the league though, cause the standard is poor this year.
We'll be found out, probably not in the league though, cause the standard is poor this year.
Lazy argument.
I'd say we've a) been fairly lucky this season as we've not been playing particularly well and b) won despite our limited midfield options, not because of them.
I reckon that if our midfield still had Djembax2, Smith and Kleberson in it he would still think it was great.
Those too are lazy arguments though.
The thing is, Fergie himself has even acknowledged we have an issue there in the past:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...chael-Carrick-holds-key-to-clubs-success.html
Yep. My point excactly.
A lot of the people who say our midfield is fine dismissed the ideas that it's not because of what happened in the league and CL last season, and attributed a lot of that to bad luck. Works both ways.
To be the player we want him to be? I'd say the chances are marginal. Not discrediting his talent but it would take one hell of a step up at this moment. A lot of his game would have to come together all at once and he'd have to add a lot of discipline and positional know how to his game in a very short space of time.
My position is simply:
a) We have about 7/8 players who can play CM and have done consistantly in their career
b) We constantly compete for the very biggest trophies
c) Central midfield is one of the most important positions on a football pitch.
I think all three of those points show that we have a good central midfield. I don't believe that "luck" gets you competing for the league year in year out. I don't believe that if our midfield options were as bad as some of you say we'd be in the position we are in.
a) We have about 7/8 players who can play CM and have done consistantly in their career
b) We constantly compete for the very biggest trophies
c) Central midfield is one of the most important positions on a football pitch.
I think all three of those points show that we have a good central midfield. I don't believe that "luck" gets you competing for the league year in year out. I don't believe that if our midfield options were as bad as some of you say we'd be in the position we are in.
Awful post. The form of Van Persie has been more to do with us winning games consistently than our midfield this year, which has been mostly dire all season. Have Carrick, Cleverley, Fletcher, Scholes, Jones and Anderson actually managed more than 5 assists between them? I doubt it. Have they prevented us from conceding loads of goals? Nope. We compete for the biggest trophies because our wingers and strikers are so good, most teams in the premiership cannot handle them, or do not know how to. When they do, we get bummed (Europe last year).
Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson are all very good options, but as has been said time and time again, the latter two are hugely injury prone, and then a gaping hole appears.
Because we have got away with it...
This is a great post.
Awful post. The form of Van Persie has been more to do with us winning games consistently than our midfield this year, which has been mostly dire all season. Have Carrick, Cleverley, Fletcher, Scholes, Jones and Anderson actually managed more than 5 assists between them? I doubt it. Have they prevented us from conceding loads of goals? Nope. We compete for the biggest trophies because our wingers and strikers are so good, most teams in the premiership cannot handle them, or do not know how to. When they do, we get bummed (Europe last year).
Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson are all very good options, but as has been said time and time again, the latter two are hugely injury prone, and then a gaping hole appears.
Plus we could always play Rafael there. Perhaps pair him with Young in a midfield two?
Rooney and Kagawa could play there as well.
In fact, I'd say we have about 12 options in CM.
To be fair, and purely for the sake of balance, you couldn't say that about our win against City. Carrick and Cleverley certainly played their part in that.
Yup, I just presented the lazy counter-arguments to his sweeping statement.