The "We Don't Actually Need A Midfielder" Thread

londonredmaniac

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To be fair, and purely for the sake of balance, you couldn't say that about our win against City. Carrick and Cleverley certainly played their part in that.
They did...very much so. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

So what if Carrick gets injured? Or goes through one of his bad runs? What if Clev gets injured again?

Carrick has no competition anymore for me and our young and more dynamic midfield two are injury prone.
 

Commadus

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Results paper over performances.

You strengthen when you have the opportunity to do so and especially when you are ahead. Using the argument that despite this supposed midfield weakness we are 6 points ahead proves that there is no midfield weakness is based on a false presumption.

As we saw last season things can change dramatically.

I think the biggest impediment to getting another midfielder is we need to take people off the wage bill. Unless Giggs/ Scholes end their careers mid season I cannot see Fergie buying a midfielder.
 

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What you mean by "needed"? Needed to win the league? Needed to win the treble? Depending on the answer, what is needed could be anything from Xavi and Iniesta to Schweinsteiger to nobody. A team's needs are rather abstract. Focusing on what/who is attainable and what they would bring is more concrete and realistic. Maybe the players who are attainable to Manchester United are not much better than what he has and he believes he has an in-house solution.
You are right to an extent. The system we play with often 2 in the middle and 2 wingers is very rare abroad. Therefore the vast majority of the players we will be looking at, are used to playing in far more compact, centrally based systems.

It is almost impossible to view players within those systems and determine how well they would adapt to our system in a faster paced league. Further consider the failures Saf has had when he has spent previously on foreign midfielders, and you begin to see why he is not only struggling to identify anyone suitable, but also why he is reluctant to risk spending big for the quality of player we need to improve.

For me a change of system makes many of these issues go away. Even changing to a 4-4-2 diamond using primarily central players, would already provide a similar type of system to what most midfielders are used to. Which would eliminate much of the risk we face now, whilst considerably broadening our scope when identifying potential targets.
 

ciderman9000000

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A lot of the people who say our midfield is fine dismissed the ideas that it's not because of what happened in the league and CL last season, and attributed a lot of that to bad luck. Works both ways.
Yeah, I didn't realise that marjen was intentionally giving lazy arguments in response, I was under the impression that he thought a) and b) were solid arguments that dismissed Twig's as being lazy.

Personally I believe that our midfield is very good when SAF makes the right selection and gets the tactics right on the day, but that that task is made very difficult for him since we seem to have a collection of specialist CM players who as individuals struggle to adapt their play any further than their own particular midfield skill set. When SAF picks the right combination it works out brilliantly, but a consequence of this over-specialisation is that the right combination is different for every game, we have no overriding 'best' midfield pairing or triplet that works consistently on a match by match basis, and the problem is complex, the result being that our team selection seems often to be little more a game of paper-scissor-stones, some of which we win and some of which we lose.

It needn't be that way though, and it's SAF's own doing imo that it is. If we had a more general box-to-box midfielder who could adapt his game, play a bit like Carrick, or a bit like Anderson, or a bit like Cleverley when needs called for it, even if never achieving the same level of ability in each specialisation as the above, then team selection would be less of a crucial, make-or-break event and the squad would be much more resilient for it.

Consider this post I made in the Diame thread yesterday:


If not a must, surely a fantastic option to have.

Personally I believe United to be at their best hitting teams on the break, we find our most clear cut chances come that way, and with the striking options at our disposal clear cut chances are more often than not converted to goals. Our problem is that in midfield we don't really have the personnel to create those breaking attacks; Rooney when playing deep can pinch the ball and immediately hit the opposition on the break, but he's not a natural midfielder; Anderson can drive the ball forward, but he's not necessarily a ball winner; Carrick can intercept well but doesn't run with the ball; Cleverley is more proficient with intricate link ups rather than the fast counter-attack; our ability to hit teams on the break is severely limited due to our not having the right players in the midfield to regularly initiate such attacks through solid, physical play during the defensive phase. We more often rely on the defence to win back the ball, by which time we're deep and hitting on the break isn't as regularly effective as it could be.

A player like Diame could solve that problem. In one smooth movement he has the ability to tackle the opposition's forward play in the middle of the field and turn the tables on them, driving the ball in the opposite direction, towards the opposing defence; with Rooney, RVP, Valencia, Young etc. flanking the same movement, creating options right across the forward line, us winning the ball regularly in the centre of the pitch and immediately turning defence into attack would oft prove to be devastating for those defending against us. It's for this reason that Anderson has proven so effective in recent games, because alongside Rooney he's the closest match we have to the right player for this kind of play. Diame could be that right player, the perfect match. If we could attack from midfield with the fluency Manchester City achieve through Yaya Toure then we'd be by far and away the best team in the land.
Now, Diame isn't the only player who can play like Diame; he might be the cheapest and the most readily available, but there are others. Why SAF doesn't just bite the bullet and take a punt on a physical, box-to-box general midfielder is anyone's guess; he claims that it's difficult finding the right player, which is fair enough, but that doesn't mean that you just don't bother trying; a difficult task is made infinitely more difficult if you're only going to attempt it once a decade.
 

londonredmaniac

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Results paper over performances.

You strengthen when you have the opportunity to do so and especially when you are ahead. Using the argument that despite this supposed midfield weakness we are 6 points ahead proves that there is no midfield weakness is based on a false presumption.

As we saw last season things can change dramatically.
Another good post.
 

Forevergiggs

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Results paper over performances.

You strengthen when you have the opportunity to do so and especially when you are ahead. Using the argument that despite this supposed midfield weakness we are 6 points ahead proves that there is no midfield weakness is based on a false presumption.

As we saw last season things can change dramatically.

I think the biggest impediment to getting another midfielder is we need to take people off the wage bill. Unless Giggs/ Scholes end their careers mid season I cannot see Fergie buying a midfielder.
The sale of Nani, Bebe and Macheda should give us ample budget and would leave ample room on the wage budget.

I would be shocked if we don't a CM this January. (I have been before though)
 

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:lol:

Awful post. The form of Van Persie has been more to do with us winning games consistently than our midfield this year, which has been mostly dire all season. Have Carrick, Cleverley, Fletcher, Scholes, Jones and Anderson actually managed more than 5 assists between them? I doubt it. Have they prevented us from conceding loads of goals? Nope. We compete for the biggest trophies because our wingers and strikers are so good, most teams in the premiership cannot handle them, or do not know how to. When they do, we get bummed (Europe last year).

Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson are all very good options, but as has been said time and time again, the latter two are hugely injury prone, and then a gaping hole appears.
:lol:

So you criticise our midfielders not getting enough assists, but then suggest that our wingers and strikers are so good we get a lot of goals through them.

It's almost like... that's the plan for our team.
 

ciderman9000000

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:lol:

So you criticise our midfielders not getting enough assists, but then suggest that our wingers and strikers are so good we get a lot of goals through them.

It's almost like... that's the plan for our team.
This is a very good point. It's difficult to criticise the tactics of any team who scores 2+ goals in almost every game they play, winning all but a scant few of them.

I was having a debate with somebody in the 'How do we beat City' thread, I said that it didn't matter if we conceded one or two against City, even falling behind wouldn't be a great disaster because we'd always have the ability to outscore them by the final whistle. We won 3-2.
 

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Basically the complaint there is

a) We score lots of goals but this is not because of our central midfield

b) We let in a lot of goals, but this is to be blamed on out central midfield.

That is basically what he said.
 

londonredmaniac

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I actually agree with Twigg that it isn't as bad as some seem to think...but I think to say we don't need a class addition given the age of some of our options is short sighted.

I also agree that the best time to strengthen is when you're on top...to stay there. I don't think the form we have shown thus far (in performance at least) will win us the title and I certainly think we will struggle against better opposition in Europe. You can't keep going behind and pulling it out the fire the way we have...it would be some mental achievment if we did the same the second half the season.
 

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In the last six games we've let in:

One was the Toure goal after our keeper had made a few good saves and a deflection,

Corner goal,

25 yard screamer,

Corner goal,

Corner Goal,

Jonny Evans poor header away,

Dyer crosses (rebound from a corner?) and fell to their striker

Cross from a winger fell to Pilkington


At most two of them (Toure and the screamer from Cluj) you could say our midfield could have helped out more on. The others have all been poor defending from set pieces or poor defending in general.
 

shaggy

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:lol:

So you criticise our midfielders not getting enough assists, but then suggest that our wingers and strikers are so good we get a lot of goals through them.

It's almost like... that's the plan for our team.
And you don't think this team could be massively improved by having another option other than lump it to the wings every minute? There's a reason our team plays miles better with an Anderson playing. He's possibly our only creative midfielder who offers something a lot more than just passing it to the wingers all game.
 

londonredmaniac

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Basically the complaint there is

a) We score lots of goals but this is not because of our central midfield

b) We let in a lot of goals, but this is to be blamed on out central midfield.

That is basically what he said.
I think there has been an argument for a while that we are walked through far too often in the centre of the park...which puts our defence under more pressure.

Of course it's not always true...the goals we shipped at Reading and Southampton for example.

I think, as I have said before, sometimes we over egg it because City can go out and spend bundles etc. I still think we need a different option in the middle mind.
 

Wumminator

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And you don't think this team could be massively improved by having another option other than lump it to the wings every minute? There's a reason our team plays miles better with an Anderson playing. He's possibly our only creative midfielder who offers something a lot more than just passing it to the wingers all game.
We've scored 2.5 goals a game this year in the prem. (scored plenty in the CL and COC as well, but I can't be bothered to compare the averages for these)

2.34 last year

2.11 2007/2008 year

2.11 the year of the treble.

If I have to be completely honest mate, I don't think we can be massively improved up front.
 

shaggy

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I know we've scored lots, but again my issue isn't with that. It's with our lack of a plan B option (see Norwich this season) and our susceptibility to teams who pressure us (see Bilbao last year). These have been problems we have had for years now and both of these issues can be resolved with some new signings in the CM area.
 

Cina

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Yeah, I didn't realise that marjen was intentionally giving lazy arguments in response, I was under the impression that he thought a) and b) were solid arguments that dismissed Twig's as being lazy.

Personally I believe that our midfield is very good when SAF makes the right selection and gets the tactics right on the day, but that that task is made very difficult for him since we seem to have a collection of specialist CM players who as individuals struggle to adapt their play any further than their own particular midfield skill set. When SAF picks the right combination it works out brilliantly, but a consequence of this over-specialisation is that the right combination is different for every game, we have no overriding 'best' midfield pairing or triplet that works consistently on a match by match basis, and the problem is complex, the result being that our team selection seems often to be little more a game of paper-scissor-stones, some of which we win and some of which we lose.

It needn't be that way though, and it's SAF's own doing imo that it is. If we had a more general box-to-box midfielder who could adapt his game, play a bit like Carrick, or a bit like Anderson, or a bit like Cleverley when needs called for it, even if never achieving the same level of ability in each specialisation as the above, then team selection would be less of a crucial, make-or-break event and the squad would be much more resilient for it.

Consider this post I made in the Diame thread yesterday:




Now, Diame isn't the only player who can play like Diame; he might be the cheapest and the most readily available, but there are others. Why SAF doesn't just bite the bullet and take a punt on a physical, box-to-box general midfielder is anyone's guess; he claims that it's difficult finding the right player, which is fair enough, but that doesn't mean that you just don't bother trying; a difficult task is made infinitely more difficult if you're only going to attempt it once a decade.
Very good post Cider, it sums up a lot of my feelings, in a less harsh way.
 

Bilbo

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I remember when we were winning 1-0 almost every week 2 or 3 years ago. The team were solid and functional and successful, and people were crying out for the 'gung-ho' days of the past when we were so exciting to watch. We're a lot closer to that now.

We've been involved in some tremendous matches this season already. Southampton, Spurs, Villa, Reading, Chelsea, City. All great matches, perhaps not for the purist, but as a spectacle, which is really what sport should be.

The odd 4-0 or 5-0 whipping would make a nice change, but I'm much preferring the 4-3's and 3-2's to the endless 1-0 wins of before, and let's be honest you can't win 4-3 without making mistakes.

Not sure where I'm going with this post really, except to say that if this season continues in the same vein, then we have some fantastic entertainment ahead of us.
 

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2 of Fletcher, Giggs, and Scholes should leave next year. I'd prefer Scholes to stay because I think with the right people around him he still has a lot to offer, especially coming off the bench.

Right now the only reliable center mid we have is Carrick, unfortunately we have no one to partner him. Anderson and Cleverley have proved again they can't be relied on. Giggs, Scholes, and Fletcher can't run. I think we need two central midfielders. One to provide cover/competition for Carrick and a more dynamic creative midfielder to partner him.

We'd be left with Carrick, Scholes, Anderson, Cleverley, Powell, and 2 new players. Scholes would be used very sparingly, I'd have him almost never start. Next season would be used to slowly phase him out. With Anderson and Cleverley's injury problems I think there is plenty of playing time for the other midfielders. I'm tired of waiting around for Anderson to prove his worth, if he can stay fit and win his place then good for him, if not then we'll have players capable of playing most games to replace him.
So you'd rather a 38yo Paul Scholes who'll be gone after next season if he does stay rather than a 28yo Darren Fletcher who could potentially come back to somewhere near his past self and be an option to start games?
 

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So you'd rather a 38yo Paul Scholes who'll be gone after next season if he does stay rather than a 28yo Darren Fletcher who could potentially come back to somewhere near his past self and be an option to start games?
I know absolutely nothing about this condition he has other than what I have read on here. But based on that, I am lead to believe the chances of him getting back to that level are very, very slim.

Having said that, and as I always feel the need to say when posting about Fletcher these days, I never expected him to get back to the level he has - not in a million years. So I guess anything is possible.
 

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I know absolutely nothing about this condition he has other than what I have read on here. But based on that, I am lead to believe the chances of him getting back to that level are very, very slim.

Having said that, and as I always feel the need to say when posting about Fletcher these days, I never expected him to get back to the level he has - not in a million years. So I guess anything is possible.
I'm not expecting him to be getting to where people were saying he's a world class player. I'm hopeful he'll reach the option where he'd be a regular starter for a top half of the table side and good enough to be a squad player for us. The days of him being a regular starter are slim to none.
 

londonredmaniac

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I remember when we were winning 1-0 almost every week 2 or 3 years ago. The team were solid and functional and successful, and people were crying out for the 'gung-ho' days of the past when we were so exciting to watch. We're a lot closer to that now.
People were crying out for us to make plenty of chances and play attractive football actually. not just 'gung ho'.
 

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Just saw these quotes from yesterday

"We have a lot of options in midfield: Anderson, Darren Fletcher, Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs - people keep saying we are weak in midfield but these are fantastic players.

"Sometimes it gives me a little bit of a problem picking the right two."

Can't see us strengthening this area until Giggs and Scholes retire.
 

KingEric7

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Urghh, I hope that's just to let the message out that we're not going to be ripped off (or something now). As for the second bit, there really should be no questions by now regarding what sort of midfield tends to work and what sort of one doesn't.
 

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2 are about to retire. One (Fletch) is still 'managing his condition'.. and Anderson and Clev dont have the best injury records..

I'm sure he knows we need more. Probably nothing in Jan.
See how Fletch does and see if Powell can step up. And then decide in the summer.
 

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Fletcher before illness was not the answer then and if by some miracle he gets back to his previous best he still will not be.
Scholes plays well in some matches when allowed space to play but in the frantic matches he is found wanting.
You cannot beat youth and energy in the middle and fergie should be less sentimental and bring an end to a few great careers he has not shirked this in the past.
 

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2 are about to retire. One (Fletch) is still 'managing his condition'.. and Anderson and Clev dont have the best injury records..

I'm sure he knows we need more. Probably nothing in Jan.
See how Fletch does and see if Powell can step up. And then decide in the summer.
I don't think he does; he has had money to spend and there have been many central midfielders transferred in the last couple of years that were attainable and would have improved our first team, not to mention our squad!

I've come to the conclusion that SAF has just developed a blind-spot for this area of the pitch. He needs somebody strong (Phelan I'm looking at you) to tell him that we are squandering, and have squandered great opportunities by skimping on the most important position on the field.
 

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I don't think he does; he has had money to spend and there have been many central midfielders transferred in the last couple of years that were attainable and would have improved our first team, not to mention our squad!

I've come to the conclusion that SAF has just developed a blind-spot for this area of the pitch. He needs somebody strong (Phelan I'm looking at you) to tell him that we are squandering, and have squandered great opportunities by skimping on the most important position on the field.
Agree with this but he could have strengthened these areas and that would have meant not purchasing other players in other areas so SAF has had to play the balancing act (we are not a Chelsea or City with unlimited funds) and the fact that we are top and doing well means to me that Fergie is getting the balance correct. I'm sure he will buy a centre mid when we can afford it. Be it with Scholes and Giggs retiring and freeing wages or when he sells others i.e. Nani.
 

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Agree with this but he could have strengthened these areas and that would have meant not purchasing other players in other areas so SAF has had to play the balancing act (we are not a Chelsea or City with unlimited funds) and the fact that we are top and doing well means to me that Fergie is getting the balance correct. I'm sure he will buy a centre mid when we can afford it. Be it with Scholes and Giggs retiring and freeing wages or when he sells others i.e. Nani.
Then in my opinion, he has prioritised the wrong purchases. Let's not forget he bought Bebe for 7mil, Young for 17mil and Buttner for 4mil all the while Montolivo was available on a free transfer.
 

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Then in my opinion, he has prioritised the wrong purchases. Let's not forget he bought Bebe for 7mil, Young for 17mil and Buttner for 4mil all the while Montolivo was available on a free transfer.
Why exactly is Buttner mentioned in your post?
 

Say Goodbye

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We can't get too far ahead of the others guys.

In any case we have Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson, who really are very good.
 

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Its been repeated many times over here, but I'd say this again, that we only have 3 reliable midfielders in the team at the moment - Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson that is. (Scholes and Giggs too old to play 90 mins, Fletcher never look fully fit or recovered, Powell is still too young and is reserve material). Then you see Cleverley and Anderson, judging their previous seasons, could only be counted as one midfielder for a season. Then finally we have Carrick, who is already 31 and will again have this several months of "struggling to find his form" to rely on.
 

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Then in my opinion, he has prioritised the wrong purchases. Let's not forget he bought Bebe for 7mil, Young for 17mil and Buttner for 4mil all the while Montolivo was available on a free transfer.
Yes and Young has been absolutely instrumental into us beating Chelsea/Man City and had a great game against Sunderland.
 

RedRonaldo

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But the good news is, despite all these problems in midfield, we still have Rooney and RVP to win us games again and again and let us forget our problems.
 

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I like Carrick, Cleverly and Anderson but I would love to see us have one truely brilliant world class cm in the mix as well. Scholes was that player and we need someone of his ability again.
 

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Then in my opinion, he has prioritised the wrong purchases. Let's not forget he bought Bebe for 7mil, Young for 17mil and Buttner for 4mil all the while Montolivo was available on a free transfer.
Well the fact is we are top of the league and still competitive so I think Fergie has got it spot on in this regard. Bebe was a poor purchase Young I'm not his biggest fan but he will turn out to be a good player for us. Buttner was cheap and we will recoup most of it if he doesn't shine while providing much needed back up. I would have liked us to sign Dembele and a few more but we didn't and its hard to take umbrage with Fergie as he is proving yet again that he knows best. (It's obvious we need a midfielder but looking at it retrospectively RVP was a far better signing than a £24m midfielder as he's propelled us into a very dangerous attacking team one which is not overly reliant on Rooney.)