The whole Bush admin is in hot water!

thewelshconjurer

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Thanks for this, somewhat delayed, reply.

jasonrh said:
The people are voting for electors.
So why did the US Supreme Court declare in Bush v. Gore that "the individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for President unless and until the state legislature chooses statewide election."

Some have flirted with the idea of proportional representation, but since this would mean in a close election losing at most one electoral vote, it would actually make those states less important. If you had State A with 10 electoral votes, and the winner takes all 10, and state B where there are 10 electoral votes, and the winner only gets his share (say 6 at most, but more likely 5), where are you going to campagin? State A, where you can get all 10 with a 1% victory, since you could win by 10% in State B would just mean a 6-4 split.
Wouldn't that be closer to the direct democracy if introduced statewide ?


majority of the popular vote - Clinton won on pluralities)
What does that mean ?
 

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Analysis
Bush Faces Dual Challenges on Iraq

By Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 25, 2005; Page A01

As he leads a fierce campaign this month to rebut criticism of the Iraq war, President Bush faces twin challenges -- one of them rooted in history, the other in the political realities of the moment.

Bush's historical burden is that there is no recent precedent for a leader using persuasion to reverse a steady downward slide for a military venture of the sort he is facing. Only clear evidence of success in Iraq is likely to alleviate widespread unease about the central project of this presidency, public opinion experts and political strategists say.

--------------------------------------------------------

The mid-portion of this article reads more like propaganda bullshit...if your interested in reading it here's the link. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5112400963.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

*to see the Post articles I think you need to fill out a simple form using a name and a local zip code.....you can use this one...20037


It's not until after this journalist gets through 3/4 of writing this article does he start to get down to the real problem at hand (The lies that got us into this mess) as seen below.


-----------------------------------
Most worrisome to the administration, given overall disapproval of the war, is that a slight majority of Americans now say they believe Bush deliberately misled the country in making the case for war in 2002 and 2003, and only 40 percent say the president is honest and trustworthy --(I think they are starting to get a clue) findings that have registered with seismic significance inside the administration. As Karlyn Bowman, who studies public opinion trends at the American Enterprise Institute, put it: "Is the personal bond broken? That's what they must be worried about."

White House counselor Dan Bartlett acknowledged the concern. "I do think that it demonstrates that if you spend enough money and repeat the charge enough, the old political axiom in Washington can come true: that charges left unanswered can stick," he said. "That's why we felt it important to marshal a vigorous defense by calling out our critics and the transparency of their charges."

Bush launched the counterattack on Veterans Day, and Vice President Cheney has weighed in with harsh criticism of Bush's detractors. Administration officials see it as a necessary prelude to making the case for the president's policies.

One White House official, who was willing to talk candidly about internal strategy only without being identified by name, acknowledged that "those numbers are troubling" in recent polls, but expressed confidence that they will recover because the public fundamentally regards Bush as "a person of honesty and integrity." :lol: :lol: :lol: (They lost the clue, that which I had thought they found)

What happens on the ground in Iraq will play the largest role in determining whether the public eventually sees Bush's decision (once more, pay close attention to the attempt to careful shifting of the pulbics eye from the lies, to 'If there's a win then all is forgiven and/or forgetten) to go to war as one worth the cost in lives and dollars. But progress toward a constitutional government in Iraq over the past year has done little to reverse the steady decline in public opinion about the war, in large part because of continuing reports of casualties and violence. Administration officials have signaled that troop levels will begin to decline next year, but not precipitously and not according to any precise timeline. Announcing firm withdrawal dates would only give Iraqi insurgents an incentive to wait out the U.S. presence, administration officials believe.

Mueller said he doubts that additional rhetoric from Bush will help his cause at home, noting the intensity of opposition his policies has already generated. "If someone is strongly opposed [to the war], they're not likely to reverse," he said. "Nor are disaffected Democrats, who have taken the lead on it." (I question the writer's and the Post's motivation by quoting someone that claims anyone whom is or was any way anit-war is stubborn - How is this unbias journalism?)

Kull said the best the administration may be able to hope for is a draw in the battle for public opinion. If positive changes occur, from a reduction in violence to a stable government to more international involvement, "then he may come out with a possible modest success out of it," he said. "But it's important to remember there are a lot of forces out there that are very determined to make sure this doesn't look like a success. . . . So it's unlikely it will look like a clear success."

But Bartlett said White House officials do not accept the possibility that Iraq will remain a continuing drag on Bush's presidency. "When you're in a tough spot -- and we're in a tough spot because of the nature of the enemy and the debate at home -- the snapshots will reflect [negative] public opinion," he said. "But we don't think they're permanent."



---------------------------------------------------

I beg of anyone and everyone that gets within earshot of anyone within the Bush camp....please tell them to 'Go feck yourself!'
 

ooeat0meoo

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What Bush and the paper's don't seem to be getting is, it's not only that american and other international lives have been sacrificed for this cause, it's the principals that have been so blaitantly shelved. Where is the honesty, integrity, the justice (especially when we hear how our soldiers are treating the Iraqis just as poorly as far as torture as Hussien) and, thoughtfulness (as in taking on a enormous task, such as this with somewhat of a plan).


I'd say most Democrats are just as much at fault for this whole mess as the Republicans. The lack of integrity, to have had stood up and said...NO! we are being led into something without knowing all the facts. They've remained silent too long...too much damage has been done to the system, a system of government in the House and the Senate the institutionally votes to not recieve information out of fear of being made to look bad having had known, some time in the future. Thus, leaving all the choices up to people like Porter Goss, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and well...not that he can really get fixed on a single thought for more than 30 seconds, Bush.


If there is any hope in the US system of govt. there needs to be major voting changes....on both sides of the isle there needs to be a house cleaning .
 

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thewelshconjurer said:
Thanks for this, somewhat delayed, reply.
You may or may not have noticed I don't get paid for weaving through all of the half arsed hatemongering, paranoia and xenophobia in here to answer technical questions about the American governmental system. ;)

So why did the US Supreme Court declare in Bush v. Gore that "the individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for President unless and until the state legislature chooses statewide election."
Because they don't. Theoretically, a state legislature could pass a law that their electors will from now on go to the tallest candidate or something. But because people want to vote for the electors, every one of those state politicians would be out on their arse the next time they came up for election, or possibly before via a recall action. Also, state constitutions frequenty make it a constitutional right on a state level.

But it is true that the federal constitution leaves the selection of electors up to the states. That's dicta in the opinion, though, and not really important.

What is important is the idea that vote counting standards for any federal election must have the same standards in place BEFORE the election statewide. These standards can't change or vary from county to county, or after the votes are in. Otherwise, the state has violated the Due Process Clause embodied in the 14th Amendment. The 5th Amendment has a Due Process Clause as well, but it only applies to actions by the federal government itself, so it's not at issue here.

Wouldn't that be closer to the direct democracy if introduced statewide ?
What is your definition of "direct democracy"? If it was done statewide, in every state it would just change who campaigns where. It's all a numbers game.

Remember, America is a representative republic, not a direct democracy in the strict political science sense. No country I know of is a direct democracy (where every person gets to vote on every law).

And even as a representative republic, there were a number of compromises made to balance the power of the larger states and the power of the smaller ones when the Constitution was drafted, because the smaller states were concerned about ceding too much of their soveriegnty to a federal government that, strictly by the numbers, the larger states could dominate.

What does that mean ?

Clinton won with 42% of the overall popular vote in 1992 and 49% of the overall popular vote in 1996. The last president before 2004 to win the presidency with a majority of the popular vote was George H. W. Bush in 1988.
 

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jasonrh said:
You may or may not have noticed I don't get paid for weaving through all of the half arsed hatemongering, paranoia and xenophobia in here to answer technical questions about the American governmental system. ;)
...

Clinton won with 42% of the overall popular vote in 1992 and 49% of the overall popular vote in 1996. The last president before 2004 to win the presidency with a majority of the popular vote was George H. W. Bush in 1988.
Sorry to trouble your busy self with this but I'd just like to clarify something in the last para.

Given that a proportion of the popular vote presumably goes to independents (in the UK we have the Lib/Dems and smaller parties taking up some of the vote) it's important to establish whether, even if they don't get more than 50% of the vote, the 'winner' actually had more votes than the person in 2nd place.

I can see that this looks possible in '92 but was it in fact the case? and how about '96? Did Clinton's major opponent on either occasion actually have more 'popular votes' than him? Is the claim relating to the period since GHW Bush in '88 made on the basis of 'more than 50%' or 'more than anyone else'?
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
Sorry to trouble your busy self with this but I'd just like to clarify something in the last para.

Given that a proportion of the popular vote presumably goes to independents (in the UK we have the Lib/Dems and smaller parties taking up some of the vote) it's important to establish whether, even if they don't get more than 50% of the vote, the 'winner' actually had more votes than the person in 2nd place.

I can see that this looks possible in '92 but was it in fact the case? and how about '96? Did Clinton's major opponent on either occasion actually have more 'popular votes' than him? Is the claim relating to the period since GHW Bush in '88 made on the basis of 'more than 50%' or 'more than anyone else'?
Both times, Clinton won a plurality of the vote, that means he had the most, but not 50%. The 1992 election was the first one in American Presidential elections since 1912 and former Republican President Roosevelt's "Bull Moose Party" to have a significant third party candidate.

That independent candidate (Ross Perot, with the ever-so-creatively-named "Independent" Party) ran again in 1996 with less support, but still significant enough support to act as a 'spoiler' and allow a victor with a plurality. Clinton would have won in 1996 anyway, based on the internals of polls done on Ross Perot's supporters in 1996, but G. H. W. Bush would have won in 1992, based on internals on Perot's support that year (where he garnered a much larger percentage of Republican voters than in 1996, and where Clinton 'only' managed 42%).

Gore is the first candidate since Cleveland in 1888 to lose the electoral vote, but win the popular vote. This is demographically due to the enormous victories Gore racked up in places like California and New York, where Bush squeaked out victories in several states with a significant number of electoral votes, most famously Florida. In Cleveland's case it was because he was engaged in a longtime political battle with the controllers (called "bosses") of New York politics, "Tammany Hall", and the bosses in New York made sure he didn't win there. As an interesting side note, Cleveland is the only President to serve non-consecutive terms. He went on to defeat Benjamin Harrison in the rematch of the 1888 election in 1892.
 

thewelshconjurer

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Thanks Jason for sharing your knowledge with us.

To sum the things up, people are allowed by the state legislatures to elect their electoral college but this is not a general rule. Am I right ? If yes, what are the tendiences nowadays. Is there a strong tendency to give people the power to elect 'their'(as a representation of the whole population in the state) electoral college, that then picks the winner candidate by a plurality or majority of votes?
 

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thewelshconjurer said:
Thanks Jason for sharing your knowledge with us.

To sum the things up, people are allowed by the state legislatures to elect their electoral college but this is not a general rule. Am I right ? If yes, what are the tendiences nowadays. Is there a strong tendency to give people the power to elect 'their'(as a representation of the whole population in the state) electoral college, that then picks the winner candidate by a plurality or majority of votes?
No. State legislatures in EVERY state have passed laws which create a vote which determines who wins the 'electoral votes' of the state. It is not a federal constitutional right, but that is irrelevant since every state holds a vote for electors.

Every state except Maine and Nebraska gives all the state's electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote within that state. Maine and Nebraska allow candidates to share electoral votes based on their percentage of that state's popular vote (ie. Candidate A who wins 60% gets 6 votes, Candidate B who wins 40% gets 4 votes). Neither of those states are very large.

Electors are faithful to the candidate they were selected by. The last "faithless elector" was in 1988. It is a very rare occurence. The elector's vote is a formality.
 

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jasonrh said:
No. State legislatures in EVERY state have passed laws which create a vote which determines who wins the 'electoral votes' of the state. It is not a federal constitutional right, but that is irrelevant since every state holds a vote for electors.

Every state except Maine and Nebraska gives all the state's electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote within that state. Maine and Nebraska allow candidates to share electoral votes based on their percentage of that state's popular vote (ie. Candidate A who wins 60% gets 6 votes, Candidate B who wins 40% gets 4 votes). Neither of those states are very large.

Electors are faithful to the candidate they were selected by. The last "faithless elector" was in 1988. It is a very rare occurence. The elector's vote is a formality.
I think most Europeans would advocate a more wide-spread employment of such a policy.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
I think most Europeans would advocate a more wide-spread employment of such a policy.
I'm happy for them. But to be blunt, it's none of their business.

It's not even the federal government's business.

It's the business of the people of each state to decide. Recently Coloradans voted against a referendum to adopt this policy. It's not got much support in the country as a whole, either.

We don't interfere with or complain about the British system that allows people to be elected to "represent" an area they've never even been to, much less live in. So don't expect us to pay much attention to European advocacy on changing our electoral system. We fought a war to be able to make these sorts of decisions for ourselves. :D
 

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jasonrh said:
I'm happy for them. But to be blunt, it's none of their business.

It's not even the federal government's business.

It's the business of the people of each state to decide. Recently Coloradans voted against a referendum to adopt this policy. It's not got much support in the country as a whole, either.

We don't interfere with or complain about the British system that allows people to be elected to "represent" an area they've never even been to, much less live in. So don't expect us to pay much attention to European advocacy on changing our electoral system. We fought a war to be able to make these sorts of decisions for ourselves. :D
Yup - we know all that - we just think that you'd be a bit less likely to inflict appalling megalomaniacs upon the world political scene if you changed. We also know most Americans don't give a flying f**k about anyone else.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
Yup - we know all that - we just think that you'd be a bit less likely to inflict appalling megalomaniacs upon the world political scene if you changed. We also know most Americans don't give a flying f**k about anyone else.
Explain to me again why you have a right to interfere with our elections again? We don't give a feck about your views on our elections because they AREN'T YOUR ELECTIONS!

It's a tough concept to understand, I know. But maybe one day someone will buy you a clue for Christmas or something.

For the record, only four times in the history of this country has the national popular vote been more for a 'losing' presidential candidate. I doubt the vast majority of you armchair election experts have even ever heard of John Quincy Adams, Rutherford Hayes, or Benjamin Harrison.
 

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jasonrh said:
Explain to me again why you have a right to interfere with our elections again? We don't give a feck about your views on our elections because they AREN'T YOUR ELECTIONS!

It's a tough concept to understand, I know. But maybe one day someone will buy you a clue for Christmas or something.

For the record, only four times in the history of this country has the national popular vote been more for a 'losing' presidential candidate. I doubt the vast majority of you armchair election experts have even ever heard of John Quincy Adams, Rutherford Hayes, or Benjamin Harrison.
I never claimed a 'right' to interfere. You are also correct in noticing that far too often it would not have helped elect someone a little bit more sane.

The problem we all face WHICH YOU SEEM TO FAIL TO UNDERSTAND, is that the political idiocy of US citizens gives right wing megalomaniacs far too much power in world affairs because they have the biggest bully on the block working for them - and the US has never worried about what is right - only what it sees as good for itself. (Anything that might mitigate that, even occasionally, is to be welcomed.)

That's what I'm complaining about - I suggest that you locate the clue that should have been staring you in the face these many decades.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
I never claimed a 'right' to interfere. You are also correct in noticing that far too often it would not have helped elect someone a little bit more sane.

The problem we all face WHICH YOU SEEM TO FAIL TO UNDERSTAND, is that the political idiocy of US citizens gives right wing megalomaniacs far too much power in world affairs because they have the biggest bully on the block working for them - and the US has never worried about what is right - only what it sees as good for itself. (Anything that might mitigate that, even occasionally, is to be welcomed.)

That's what I'm complaining about - I suggest that you locate the clue that should have been staring you in the face these many decades.
Another blinkered European pretending like evil was invented by George Bush.

Did you worry about the effect you would have on the world when your grandparents voted for Neville Chamberlain? Did you worry about the effect on the Irish when your government decided to starve them out of Ireland so they would move here?
 

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jasonrh said:
Another blinkered European pretending like evil was invented by George Bush.

Did you worry about the effect you would have on the world when your grandparents voted for Neville Chamberlain? Did you worry about the effect on the Irish when your government decided to starve them out of Ireland so they would move here?
Typical American misrepresentation about what occurred.

When my grandparents voted for Chamberlain I wasn't alive - and he wasn't anything like as much of a problem as the majority of post-war US presidents. (Hence 'decades' it goes back way earlier than Bush.)

You are the one wearing blinkers - the problem is that you've forgotten they should be at the side of the eyes - not OVER them.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
Typical American misrepresentation about what occurred.

When my grandparents voted for Chamberlain I wasn't alive - and he wasn't anything like as much of a problem as the majority of post-war US presidents.
(Hence 'decades' it goes back way earlier than Bush.)

You are the one wearing blinkers - the problem is that you've forgotten they should be at the side of the eyes - not OVER them.
:lol:

Classic post.

Do you get paid for this, or is your comedy work just a hobby?
 

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jasonrh said:
:lol:

Classic post.

Do you get paid for this, or is your comedy work just a hobby?
God knows what you're on about here...

Anyway - just wanted to point out that I got a bit ill-tempered last night (wine talking perhaps? or just missing the Utd highlights because I lost track of time?) - and to apologise for the tenor of my remarks.
 

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I just wanted the 300th post in this thread.

...nothing new today with Bush he's still an ass and still in hot water with the US public. with approval ratings teetering at around 30% :)


Just a thought...at what point should we be calling his ratings 'Disapproval Ratings'? Would be more appropriate, me thinks when they go bellow 50.

I like that better...Bush's Disapproval Rating.....somewhere above 70%, has a more possitive ring to it. :D
 

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LABOB said:
I just wanted the 300th post in this thread.

...nothing new today with Bush he's still an ass and still in hot water with the US public. with approval ratings teetering at around 30% :)


Just a thought...at what point should we be calling his ratings 'Disapproval Ratings'? Would be more appropriate, me thinks when they go bellow 50.

I like that better...Bush's Disapproval Rating.....somewhere above 70%, has a more possitive ring to it. :D
Nice try - but you've got the 300th REPLY (and so the 301st post).

Cheers anyway! ;)
 

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Louisiana compiles mountians of video footage of the Hurricane Katrina timeline. Highlights Bush's bad reaction to sending assistance. As the media continues to try and spread the blame out....it's the Bush admin. or just Bush himself the screwed up....Gov. Blanca is seen handing Bush a written request for help. Help still didn't come for 5 more days.

The 9.11 Commission belongs in here. On all aspects of homeland security the US recieves an F or at best a D. Bush's people are trying t focus on what has been done, but when the rubber hits the road people are just as screwed as they were at the time the planes hit the towers.
 

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The domestic spying issue is growing.

Now, it's come out that the spying extends to many of the nonprofits throughout the states.

The courts have continued to back the President and this very questionable more to eavesdrop on whomever whenever. The courts don't appear to have a real grasp on the law. I seriously doubt that PETA has terrorist connections.

Looking to me more and more like fascism.
 

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LABOB said:
The domestic spying issue is growing.

Now, it's come out that the spying extends to many of the nonprofits throughout the states.

The courts have continued to back the President and this very questionable more to eavesdrop on whomever whenever. The courts don't appear to have a real grasp on the law. I seriously doubt that PETA has terrorist connections.

Looking to me more and more like facism.
I saw on CNN that Bush approved spying of mosques, Muslim groups & Muslim homes - an interviewed Muslim leader was outraged that Bush didnt trust American Muslims.

Naive thinking?

BTW, what Bush sanctioned - was it illegal?

If not, what's all the fuss about?
 

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kkcbl said:
BTW, what Bush sanctioned - was it illegal?

If not, what's all the fuss about?
It's debatable, and a good issue for the courts. Bush's argument is plausible, and, because of that, most thinking people would agree that it's not an iimpeachable offense, even if illegal.

Here's a summary:

When the Patriot Act came up for renewal, the New York Times leaked classified information about the National Security Agency's (NSA) surveillance of suspected al Queda operatives and known contacts in the USA. (I won't go into the issue of a newspaper putting classified information on its front page, the harm that such information could cause, or any investigation or punishment of the individual responsible for the leak). Eavesdropping was done without the warrants required by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (which was enacted after a committee headed by Frank Church uncovered evidence that 3 Americans had been spied upon by the NSA).

Bush authorized the NSA to intercept electronic communications without warrants by executive order in 2001. Bush believes that he has the legal authority to approve the warrantless surveilance from a joint resolution passed by Congress on 9/14/01, that authorizes him "to use all necessary and appropriate force" to prevent future acts of terrorism. The resolution was passed after it became known that the 9/11 hijackers were known to have been in contact with terrorists abroad. The activities were signed off by the nation's top legal officials and are reviewed every 45 days. Leaders in Congress were frequently briefed on the authorization and the activities.

Before Bush's executive order, the NSA had to get such warrents through the court that was formed just to provide such warrants. It's considered the biggest rubber stamp in the US, granting about 20,000 warrants from 1979 through 2004, and rejecting 4.

Critics of the surveillance say theat it violates the Constitution's ban on "unreasonable searches and seizures," the Communications Act of 1934, and Totle 18 of the US Criminal Code that protects against warrantless searches and assures privacy. They argue that a showing of probable cause must me made before the warrants are issued.

The US Supreme Court has never precisely determined the line between presidential powers in wartime and legal protections. Some people think that even if legal, the surveillance was a bad idea because it would undermine confidence in the government. Others think that the president's powers during an emergency shouldn't be superseded by laws limiting intelligence gathering. Adding to the debate is the criticism that the NSA came under for not being aggressive enough in intercepting communications prior to 9/11. Specifically, it's pointed out that the FBI was unable to get a search warrant for the computer of 20th hijacker Zacarias Moussaoui in August 2001, which contained information which might have prevented the hijackings of 9/11.

Anyway, the courts are competent to figure this out. Usually wartime presidents have their presidential powers interpreted broadly and are given deference from Congress. The courts will probably be consistent with US history, even if Congress is not. My guess is that they'll provide a rule where the NSA is only allowed such powers in extreme emergency situations, though they may give Bush a little wiggle room because he's a wartime president.
 

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Thanks Kenny.

Somehow methinks Bush has been battling a lot of entrenched rules & regulations & that's why he's been at odds with many issues - status of POWs, torture, political assasinations, now spying.

A case of a President ignoring the essence of democracy or democracy hampering a President?

Seems the underlying message in this present Bush vs Instituitionalised Democracy is that democracy is only good value during peace time & should be curbed in times of 'crisis'....
 

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I would agree with the both of you if you weren't talking about a guy whom has zero respect for the law and zero respect for the truth.

This isn't even something I'm going to waste much thought on because the courts are stacked with ultra conservative judges that will do whatever Bush wants anyhow. And if they don't...well then Rupert Murdoch will run a full page ad against them with a huge photo of the dirty rotten lib. in the NY Post....so it's a mute point.:yawn:

Almost don't even know why I brought it up.

and kkcbl...be careful with what kenny has to say on anything...it's mostly republican talking points blather....I'll post the most realistic article I come across in the next week...to be fair, I'll seek out the most middle of the road take on it.
 

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LABOB said:
I would agree with the both of you if you weren't talking about a guy whom has zero respect for the law and zero respect for the truth.

This isn't even something I'm going to waste much thought on because the courts are stacked with ultra conservative judges that will do whatever Bush wants anyhow. And if they don't...well then Rupert Murdoch will run a full page ad against them with a huge photo of the dirty rotten lib. in the NY Post....so it's a mute point.:yawn:

Almost don't even know why I brought it up.

and kkcbl...be careful with what kenny has to say on anything...it's mostly republican talking points blather....I'll post the most realistic article I come across in the next week...to be fair, I'll seek out the most middle of the road take on it.
Well, LABOB, I don't know what kenny's political affiliation is ( I always thought he suggested he was a Democrat? ), but if he agrees with Bush in his many tussles with the Instituitions of Democracy, then it must follow that the Instituitions of Democracy is very fallible & perhaps archaic?
 

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kkcbl said:
Well, LABOB, I don't know what kenny's political affiliation is ( I always thought he suggested he was a Democrat? ), but if he agrees with Bush in his many tussles with the Instituitions of Democracy, then it must follow that the Instituitions of Democracy is very fallible & perhaps archaic?
I dunno if it's archaic...I think the greatest examples of a healthy society throughout history are found within some sort of democratic envir.

Fallible absolutely.

More corrupted than anything else in these times. Corrupted in greed for money and an overall corruption ideology that tells us we need to create an atmosphere the crushes the weeker half, otherwise bring about ruin. It's an ideology that's growing world wide...and pretty much out of hand here in the states. Paranoia really.
 

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kkcbl said:
Well, LABOB, I don't know what kenny's political affiliation is ( I always thought he suggested he was a Democrat? ), but if he agrees with Bush in his many tussles with the Instituitions of Democracy, then it must follow that the Instituitions of Democracy is very fallible & perhaps archaic?
As usual, LABOB is wrong again. I am a registered Democrat and always have been. LABOB gets confused because I'm a moderate Democrat, while he's an absolute paranoid, delusional, bleeding-heart liberal. He sees conspiracies in the media, in our courts, and everywhere else for that matter. But I don't think that he could stand in front a mirror and identify who he sees - even with three guesses.

His statements remind me of a story that ran in a British tabloid that said "WWII Airplane Found on Moon." When other newspapers said that it was ridiculous and that there was no such plane on the moon, the tabloid ran a headline that said, "WWII Airplane Missing From Moon.
 

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kkcbl said:
Thanks Kenny.

Somehow methinks Bush has been battling a lot of entrenched rules & regulations & that's why he's been at odds with many issues - status of POWs, torture, political assasinations, now spying.

A case of a President ignoring the essence of democracy or democracy hampering a President?

Seems the underlying message in this present Bush vs Instituitionalised Democracy is that democracy is only good value during peace time & should be curbed in times of 'crisis'....
Part of it is an overreaction to 9/11. On every level of our government we get heat-of-the-moment legislation passed, or sketchy interpretations of current law. The purpose of the Supreme Court is to take a dispassionate look at such legislation and decide if it comports with our Constitution. I'm OK with that. The Court was appointed by past and present presidents and approved by the Senate. At that level, I don't care if they are liberal or conservative, so long as their opinion is based on the law.

I don't know which interpretation of the eavesdropping is correct. What Bush is doing has more or less been done before. Actually, it was worse because they were warrantless 'physical' searches, iroinically both by Democratic presidents. In 1993, Clinton (who I voted for) authorized the CIA to do warrantless searches in the Aldrich Ames case. Even Jimmy Carter authorized warrantless searches in 1978 against two men suspected of spying for North Vietnam. Four different courts have said that the president had inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.

I think that terrorists can take advantage of our free and open society. It's not quite as free and open as it was before 9/11, but I think that's understandable. I think bin Ladin is a great manipulator. I think he coiuld foresee that a horrendous terrorist strike would force the US into actions that would alienate a large portion of the world; that the people would vote for a leader perceived as being tough against terrorism, like Bush, who would strain our international relationships.

But it's not democracy that's the problem. Nobody should ever say that democracy is a perfect form of government because it isn't. As somebody once said, it's more the least imperfect form of government. I don't think 'curbed' is the right word. It's just that in peacetime the balancing of security issues and personal liberties is much different than in wartime (meaning threat of terrorism). It's important that people understand that, which is difficult to happen, because our media doesn't seem to get it.
 

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kennyj said:
As usual, LABOB is wrong again. I am a registered Democrat and always have been. LABOB gets confused because I'm a moderate Democrat, while he's an absolute paranoid, delusional, bleeding-heart liberal. He sees conspiracies in the media, in our courts, and everywhere else for that matter. But I don't think that he could stand in front a mirror and identify who he sees - even with three guesses.

His statements remind me of a story that ran in a British tabloid that said "WWII Airplane Found on Moon." When other newspapers said that it was ridiculous and that there was no such plane on the moon, the tabloid ran a headline that said, "WWII Airplane Missing From Moon.
What are you going on about Kenny, call yourself whatever you want, it's still bullshit.:)

Zell called himself a Democrat. Doesn't make him a public servant, a person of the people, and saying that you're a moderate is a fecking joke...a joke that few people would agree is funny either.

And no matter how hard you try to spin the isuues....it always comes up the same way. Politicians are increasingly finding themselves in trouble for overstepping their duties. Having said that, people like you continue to look like asses.
 

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LABOB said:
What are you going on about Kenny, call yourself whatever you want, it's still bullshit.:)

Zell called himself a Democrat. Doesn't make him a public servant, a person of the people, and saying that you're a moderate is a fecking joke...a joke that few people would agree is funny either.

And no matter how hard you try to spin the isuues....it always comes up the same way. Politicians are increasingly finding themselves in trouble for overstepping their duties. Having said that, people like you continue to look like asses.
You're the ass LABOB. You're just out of touch with reality. I feel sorry for you.
 

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kennyj said:
You're the ass LABOB. You're just out of touch with reality. I feel sorry for you.
Trust me Kenny, I'm not clueless.

I perfectly understand that your vision of how things should be are more of the direction we're headed.

I just think that you and the Zel Millers of the world have got things wrong. Things don't need to be the way they are. The complicated world we live in is further complicated by the greedy and paranoid from your side of thought, not my side.

I'm much more optimistic and see things as workable. Couldn't say that much for your so called moderate vision.
 

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Better get used to it LABOB. The Democrats have lost the moderates by selling out to people like yourself. Look at Hillary. She's moving towards the center to get votes from people like myself because she knows that without such votes, she's just another Democratic loser. Look how easy it was for the Dems to lose to a horrible candidate like Bush by putting up a worse candidate in Kerry. It's called reality, LABOB.

You know nothing about me or my so-called vision. And I don't think I'd call you 'clueless.' 'Insane' is a much better word.
 

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Mozza said:
A politician moving towards the center?!?!?!?! They all do that you moron.
Not necessarily you fool. Perfect example, Hillary didn't when she ran for Senator.