The whole Bush admin is in hot water!

crappycraperson

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Grinner said:
why don't you just come out and say

"We invaded Iraq to kick the shit out of Saddam and show the rest of those A-rab sonsabitches not to feck with the US"

Instead of this lying bullshit about saving the Iraqi people from a ruthless dictator.

At least be honest about it. I don't think we'd think any less of you.
Correct.
I supported US war against Afghanistan but it had no right to go in Iraq without UN approval.
If they wanted to help Iraqis, they would have done that ages ago.
Whatever attrocities Europeans committed in the past, doesnt in any sense give a liscense to US to do the same in present or future.
 

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An appeal to rational posters.

I was just wondering if anyone knows of any actual reasons why the CIA should have considered Wilson as an inappropriate candidate for the Niger trip.

Should these have outweighed the items in his favour already listed? Should something have ruled him out completely from consideration?
 

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Grinner said:
why don't you just come out and say

"We invaded Iraq to kick the shit out of Saddam and show the rest of those A-rab sonsabitches not to feck with the US"

Instead of this lying bullshit about saving the Iraqi people from a ruthless dictator.

At least be honest about it. I don't think we'd think any less of you.
Why don't you come out and say you lot just re-elected a Prime Minister who supported that same war and who actually gave us much of the faulty intelligence that led to the war?

You always claim the moral high ground, but are wrong to do so.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
An appeal to rational posters.

I was just wondering if anyone knows of any actual reasons why the CIA should have considered Wilson as an inappropriate candidate for the Niger trip.

Should these have outweighed the items in his favour already listed? Should something have ruled him out completely from consideration?
He was an ambassador, with no intelligence credentials, under a former president from a different political party, and one who was very politically active even before he went to Niger, and a staunch opponent of the President on political grounds.
 

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The Brits recently re-elected a Prime Minister who supported that same war and who actually gave the USA much of the faulty intelligence that led to the war.
 

crappycraperson

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Grinner said:
The Brits recently re-elected a Prime Minister who supported that same war and who actually gave the USA much of the faulty intelligence that led to the war?
I think he is talking about Blair.
 

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Grinner said:
why don't you just come out and say

"We invaded Iraq to kick the shit out of Saddam and show the rest of those A-rab sonsabitches not to feck with the US"

Instead of this lying bullshit about saving the Iraqi people from a ruthless dictator.

At least be honest about it. I don't think we'd think any less of you.
:lol: I think you should send this script the man himself GWB...
 

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jasonrh said:
Why don't you come out and say you lot just re-elected a Prime Minister who supported that same war and who actually gave us much of the faulty intelligence that led to the war?

You always claim the moral high ground, but are wrong to do so.
Not guilty, and to be quite honest we had no alternatives. :p
 

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jasonrh said:
He was an ambassador, with no intelligence credentials, under a former president from a different political party, and one who was very politically active even before he went to Niger, and a staunch opponent of the President on political grounds.
Surely a mark in his favour I'd have thought - with glowing references from Bush's dad about his time in Beirut prior to the Gulf war (as charge d'affaires) - I'd expect some intelligence contact here. As an experienced diplomat he's used to looking behind the words that people use and the persona adopted to try and detect what's going on behind the scenes - likewise for written documents I'd say. Pretty much what was required I'd have thought.

Why should the CIA make an operational decision like this upon political grounds? What influence should the candidate's political leanings have upon them?

Lastly, do these problems outweigh his relevant experience and contacts?
 

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The CIA have always had a political axe to grind. The Bush crowd tried to pin much of 9/11 on the CIA.

Anyone who thinks the CIA is apolitical is ignorant and probably sexist too.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
Surely a mark in his favour I'd have thought - with glowing references from Bush's dad about his time in Beirut prior to the Gulf war (as charge d'affaires) - I'd expect some intelligence contact here. As an experienced diplomat he's used to looking behind the words that people use and the persona adopted to try and detect what's going on behind the scenes - likewise for written documents I'd say. Pretty much what was required I'd have thought.

Why should the CIA make an operational decision like this upon political grounds? What influence should the candidate's political leanings have upon them?

Lastly, do these problems outweigh his relevant experience and contacts?
He was a known political activist, though.

Not being from the US, you don't understand the difference in the political climate in the 1980s, when the Democrats were at a state of detante with George Bush, and the state of the political climate in 2001, when the Democrats essentially declared open war on American politics because of the Republican victory.

The difference between 1991 and 2001 in American politics is more marked than I can emphasise.
 

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Grinner said:
The CIA have always had a political axe to grind. The Bush crowd tried to pin much of 9/11 on the CIA.

Anyone who thinks the CIA is apolitical is ignorant and probably sexist too.
I'm not worried whether we should think of the CIA as political - I'm worried about whether Wilson's politics should have excluded him. However, if you're worried about the CIA's anti-Bush slant having too much positive influence on the decision to recruit Wilson, what would be the adavntage of that to them?

Traditionally, the CIA has been seen as very conservative - closely linked to the Republican party and the Bush family itself and political in that sense. Here, you are pointing out a non-party-political stance - politics in the broader sense where the struggle between contending sides shares the same label.

The CIA would be v. pissed off at Bush for trying to direct some 9/11 blame their way when they'd produced warnings about Al Qaeda as a threat prior to his inauguration - but he wanted to direct attention against Iraq.
 

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jasonrh said:
He was a known political activist, though.

Not being from the US, you don't understand the difference in the political climate in the 1980s, when the Democrats were at a state of detante with George Bush, and the state of the political climate in 2001, when the Democrats essentially declared open war on American politics because of the Republican victory.

The difference between 1991 and 2001 in American politics is more marked than I can emphasise.
So Democrats were well pissed off at being cheated out an election they won and at the party and the mechanisms that brought it about - seems likely!

I'll take your reading of the increased animosity as reasonable.

I still don't get why the CIA would think they could benefit from Wilson's politics though? - certainly not enough to choose him ahead of putative much-better candidates.
 

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I think the overriding motivation for the CIA has always been self-preservation, and self-aggrandizement.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
I'm not worried whether we should think of the CIA as political - I'm worried about whether Wilson's politics should have excluded him. However, if you're worried about the CIA's anti-Bush slant having too much positive influence on the decision to recruit Wilson, what would be the adavntage of that to them?

Traditionally, the CIA has been seen as very conservative - closely linked to the Republican party and the Bush family itself and political in that sense. Here, you are pointing out a non-party-political stance - politics in the broader sense where the struggle between contending sides shares the same label.

The CIA would be v. pissed off at Bush for trying to direct some 9/11 blame their way when they'd produced warnings about Al Qaeda as a threat prior to his inauguration - but he wanted to direct attention against Iraq.
Bush was the head of the CIA nearly 30 years ago, none of those people are still there. They were long since replaced by the 1990s.

As far as CIA warnings, they warned about Al Queda to Clinton as early as 1994, and nothing was done. This was because they never had any specific information about anything to act on, so Clinton had nothing to do. So when 9/11 happened, and they didn't see it coming specifically, and a lot of people on both sides of the aisle blamed them (wrongfully, imho). A lot of the career beaurocrats lashed out at Bush because of this - Bush was an easy target, since he was already the embattled "illegitimate" president.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
So Democrats were well pissed off at being cheated out an election they won and at the party and the mechanisms that brought it about - seems likely!

I'll take your reading of the increased animosity as reasonable.

I still don't get why the CIA would think they could benefit from Wilson's politics though? - certainly not enough to choose him ahead of putative much-better candidates.
The problem with the above is that they did lose the election. They just couldn't take it mentally, and fell off the deep end. There has never been a single study of the ballots in which Al Gore had a statewide lead. Not a single one - including ones done by the New York Times and the Palm Beach Post - who reported they were 'surprised' to discover Bush had actually won. And this after virtually every military ballot was thrown out by the Democrats, which would have resulted in an even bigger statewide Bush margin.

They thought they had won it because a POLL told them they had won it. The poll was wrong. They continued to chose to believe the poll rather than the actual votes.

This is another one of those issues that, the longer it gets brought up, the more powerful the Republicans become, because no one except hard core political activists on the left seriously believes it.

And the point I believe Stamford was trying to make in his inimitable 'style' is that "the CIA" probably didn't pick Wilson - his own wife might have.
 

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Grinner said:
I think the overriding motivation for the CIA has always been self-preservation, and self-aggrandizement.
Probably accurate - I'd just point out they'd usually see this as most likely in a conservative administration.
 

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Slabber said:
Why have you used quotations?
Because he won that election.

See below.

No counting of the ballots ever gave Gore a lead in Florida.

The Democrats chose to believe poll numbers rather than people's actual votes.

In this country, 80% of the populace rolls their eyes when someone says "illegitimate" president. Only abroad and with that 20% of core Democrats does that hold any resonance or 'truth' at all.
 

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jasonrh said:
And the point I believe Stamford was trying to make in his inimitable 'style' is that "the CIA" probably didn't pick Wilson - his own wife might have.
The problem is that his 'point' just doesn't match the evidence - it also makes little sense (see all the actual arguments on the subject above).
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
The problem is that his 'point' just doesn't match the evidence - it also makes little sense (see all the actual arguments on the subject above).
We don't know how or why Wilson was sent exactly. I don't think it was his wife, as she was apparently a different kind of agent.

What we do know is he essentially went on a comfy paid vacation to Niger, hung out for a while and came home.

Not the kind of 'covert ops' thing the CIA usually gets up to, and hardly likely to confirm or refute the yellow cake story. The whole thing was bizzare to say the least.
 

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jasonrh said:
The problem with the above is that they did lose the election. They just couldn't take it mentally, and fell off the deep end. There has never been a single study of the ballots in which Al Gore had a statewide lead. Not a single one - including ones done by the New York Times and the Palm Beach Post - who reported they were 'surprised' to discover Bush had actually won. And this after virtually every military ballot was thrown out by the Democrats, which would have resulted in an even bigger statewide Bush margin.

They thought they had won it because a POLL told them they had won it. The poll was wrong. They continued to chose to believe the poll rather than the actual votes.

This is another one of those issues that, the longer it gets brought up, the more powerful the Republicans become, because no one except hard core political activists on the left seriously believes it.
So they're only entitled to feel aggrieved at the corrupt systems that prevented the vote counts, at the disenfranchisement of numerous voters who weren't even allowed to use the ballot machines - and now at the selling of the capacity to register electoral votes (via electonic voting machines) to companies that are contributors to the Republican party.

I'm sure they'll feel much better.
 

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jasonrh said:
We don't know how or why Wilson was sent exactly. I don't think it was his wife, as she was apparently a different kind of agent.

What we do know is he essentially went on a comfy paid vacation to Niger, hung out for a while and came home.

Not the kind of 'covert ops' thing the CIA usually gets up to, and hardly likely to confirm or refute the yellow cake story. The whole thing was bizzare to say the least.
Actually, I don't think we 'know' this at all - but it's what the Bush-camp wants us to believe for sure.

PS - thanks for the info on 2001 votes by the way - interesting.
 

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jasonrh said:
We don't know how or why Wilson was sent exactly...

Not the kind of 'covert ops' thing the CIA usually gets up to, and hardly likely to confirm or refute the yellow cake story. The whole thing was bizzare to say the least.
Well I'm assuming since they did in fact choose him that it was exactly the sort of investigation that suited his talents - collating info - questioning sources - asking about assumptions - checking whether the right names were on the right documents etc. Now some aspects of that would require a much more visible presence than could be provided by a 'covert-style' operative so they'd be looking for someone different.

That's my best guess anyway.

It's also interesting to note that the potentially misleading quotes the Bush-camp make about a couple of items in the report do not engage with either the conclusions or the actual reasoning of the report. They just add a couple of vaguely related remarks to encourage people to infer that the reasoning was suspect.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
So they're only entitled to feel aggrieved at the corrupt systems that prevented the vote counts, at the disenfranchisement of numerous voters who weren't even allowed to use the ballot machines - and now at the selling of the capacity to register electoral votes (via electonic voting machines) to companies that are contributors to the Republican party.

I'm sure they'll feel much better.
This is more of the nonsense conspiracy shit they spread around.

1) No one who was registered and attempted to vote at the proper polling place was denied the right to vote. In almost all states, in order to prevent voter fraud, you have to turn up at the polling place designated as being closest to your house.

Tons of college kids who were too stoned or too stupid to figure this out turned up on election day at the wrong places and were not allowed to vote. It's not like it doesn't say this on your registration card, and it's not like this was some new Republican rule. That's the way it has been since Florida became a state! I knew that, and it was my first Presidential election as well. If you can't follow the two simple rules (photo ID, show up at your polling place) then you can't vote.

Also, in Florida felons do not have the right to vote unless they petition to have their right restored. The Democrats want to change this now, but it's a law they enacted more than half a century ago.

2) There were no electronic voting machines in Florida in 2000. We were criticised for relying on the paper ones and told to switch by the Democrats.

3) For all those claims of racism and voter intimidation, the Clinton justice department investigated the shit out of them, and found absolutely no evidence of voter intimidation or racism.

4) The places where all the supposed wrongs occured were counties run by Democrats - primarily Palm Beach County. Surely the Democrats were not denying their own people a chance to vote, or trying to trick their own people?

5) The vote count was done over and over again. That's the point. The US Supreme Court ruled 7-2, including two of the liberal members of the court, that the new standards where a tiny mark or dent on the card equalled a vote were against the law. The law was set before the election - 30 years before - by the Democrats. It must be a demonstrable removal of the Chad, or hanging by one strand. It was 5-4 on whether to set a cut off date for counting, or let the Florida Legislature do it.

Even after the election, using every possible standard, the votes have been looked over again and again, and in no count does Gore win. Not a single one. No further counting could have or would have changed the result. In fact, further counting violated Florida law, which demands an election be certified by a certain date, and the ballots sealed off in case a court wants to demand a recount.

6) The only evidence at all of disenfranchisement is that Democratic Attorney General Bob Butterworth ordered that military absentee ballots which arrived after the election could not be counted. There was a supposed ambiguity in the law where supposedly every absentee ballot had to be in, but the practice was that ones delivered by the US military were counted when they arrived. This was contrary to the intent of the law, and to all past readings of that law. This disenfranchised thousands of voters, 70% of whom voted for Bush.

I come from Florida. I was home following events on a minute by minute basis in 2000/early 2001. I know how this state works, and I know what happened in 2000. Bush has done a number of stupid things since he was elected. But he most certainly was elected.
 

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jasonrh said:
Because he won that election.

See below.

No counting of the ballots ever gave Gore a lead in Florida.

The Democrats chose to believe poll numbers rather than people's actual votes.

In this country, 80% of the populace rolls their eyes when someone says "illegitimate" president. Only abroad and with that 20% of core Democrats does that hold any resonance or 'truth' at all.
But what about those pregnant chads and disenfranchised blacks?
 

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jasonrh said:
This is more of the nonsense conspiracy shit they spread around.

1) No one who was registered and attempted to vote at the proper polling place was denied the right to vote. In almost all states, in order to prevent voter fraud, you have to turn up at the polling place designated as being closest to your house...

Also, in Florida felons do not have the right to vote unless they petition to have their right restored. The Democrats want to change this now, but it's a law they enacted more than half a century ago.

2) There were no electronic voting machines in Florida in 2000. We were criticised for relying on the paper ones and told to switch by the Democrats...

I come from Florida. I was home following events on a minute by minute basis in 2000/early 2001. I know how this state works, and I know what happened in 2000. Bush has done a number of stupid things since he was elected. But he most certainly was elected.
1 - The problems as I understood it at the time were that numerous potential voters were labelled as felons incorrectly, and that numerous people were effectively removed from the register. That was the issue to which I was referring.

2 - I was referring to the problems the US political system will face in the future - not a non-existent past problem (although the contract has been made by 'now' I believe) - sorry for the misunderstanding.
 

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Grinner said:
Wilson wasn't exactly unqualified for the Niger mission in a Miers-type way, was he?
:lol:

Miers was uniquely qualified because she was a bit liberal, but a friend, so he thought he could get her past the Dems.

The Dems are a bit fecked having gone for blood on her, there's no way Alito will not go through, and then even Roe might be at risk.

Roberts
Scalia
Thomas
Alito

Kennedy

Stevens
Suter
Breyer
Ginsburg

Kennedy is the only hope for the libs now, as the only "swing" justice (which I reckon Miers would have been), and if Stevens cops it in the next year or two, then it will be a solid 5-4, with lots of 6-3s from Kennedy joining in.

It will be...interesting. Possibly the most conservative court since the Horsemen if Stevens is also replaced by Bush.
 

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So am I right so far in thinking that the only significant real objection to Wilson we have come up with would have to be one on the grounds of his political leanings.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
1 - The problems as I understood it at the time were that numerous potential voters were labelled as felons incorrectly, and that numerous people were effectively removed from the register. That was the issue to which I was referring.

2 - I was referring to the problems the US political system will face in the future - not a non-existent past problem (although the contract has been made by 'now' I believe) - sorry for the misunderstanding.

1- Some people may have been incorrectly labelled as felons, but the justice department came to the conclusion that this was no more than in any previous election and did not represent bias. No more than a dozen or so verified incidents of this happening are documented.

As for being removed from voting registers, this is a practice done if you do not vote for more than a decade. You are presumed to have moved away or died, and in order to prevent voter fraud you have to go and re-register. Again, this rule was put in place by the Democrats to prevent voter fraud. And it is hardly a secret. When election day starts to roll around, the various counties put out fliers and radio and TV ads reminding people to register, or if they have not voted in a long time, to make sure they are still registered.

This is a vitally important fraud protection mechanism, especially after the Democratic Mayor of Miami a few years ago cross-checked the registration rolls with the obituary pages, and faked hundreds of votes for himself.

And once again, these removals are done on a county by county basis. The allegation was that blacks were removed from the rolls in Palm Beach and another Democratic county. Why would the Democrats engage in racist removal of their own voters?

2- The machines will be operated by each county, not by that company. This electronic thing is largely being done in the problem counties from 2000 - ie Democratic counties who bought the machines, and now their fellow Democrats are trying to spread conspiracy theories amongst the ignorant about Evil Jeb and Evil George.

Just about every major company donates to the political winners in this country, especially since what Clinton did to Microsoft, which many inside Microsoft felt was a response to them being hit up for money by the Dems and telling them they were in the computer business, not the politics business.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
So am I right so far in thinking that the only significant real objection to Wilson we have come up with would have to be one on the grounds of his political leanings.
No - I keep telling you, it is believed he just essentially went on a vacation, and then came back and slammed Bush.

You keep calling that Bush's spin, but you can't show it's not the case. Instead, you keep saying things like "Well I'm assuming since they did in fact choose him that it was exactly the sort of investigation that suited his talents".

That's a big assumption. Even Democrats I know in Washington think the guy is lucky to know how to tie his shoes. He's a self-aggrandising moron, to be honest.

You're also assuming a competent and non-c.y.a.ing CIA. which is equally a shaky assumption.
 

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Slabber said:
But what about those pregnant chads and disenfranchised blacks?
"Pregnant" chads was an attempt by the Palm Beach County election officials to change the standard after the election, and count any ballot with a mark of any sort on it for Gore.

Disenfranchised Blacks is an example of the sort of lies that some of the looneys in the Democratic Party spread around rather than actually bothering to come up with any policies of their own. The Clinton Justice Department found no evidence of such thing.
 

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jasonrh said:
:lol:

Miers was uniquely qualified because she was a bit liberal, but a friend, so he thought he could get her past the Dems.

The Dems are a bit fecked having gone for blood on her, there's no way Alito will not go through, and then even Roe might be at risk.

Roberts
Scalia
Thomas
Alito

Kennedy

Stevens
Suter
Breyer
Ginsburg

Kennedy is the only hope for the libs now, as the only "swing" justice (which I reckon Miers would have been), and if Stevens cops it in the next year or two, then it will be a solid 5-4, with lots of 6-3s from Kennedy joining in.

It will be...interesting. Possibly the most conservative court since the Horsemen if Stevens is also replaced by Bush.
So Wilson was an acceptable choice then?
 

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Grinner said:
So Wilson was an acceptable choice then?
Since the job was to hang out in Niger for a week or so, and then come home and bash the president, yes. I think so.

Miers was a bit of an idiotic choice for the Court, because she didn't have enough experience.

But the Democrats should have let the Republican Right destroy her rather than helping themselves. Especially since Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid privately namechecked Miers to Bush as a moderate he could trust, and so Bush had every reason to believe they would support her. Reid was then the first critic of a nominee he privately suggested.

Now they're stuck with Alito for their efforts. Bush may have been more likely to appoint a qualified moderate if they had not tried to play "gotcha" and set up the President.
 

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jasonrh said:
No - I keep telling you, it is believed he just essentially went on a vacation, and then came back and slammed Bush.

You keep calling that Bush's spin, but you can't show it's not the case. Instead, you keep saying things like "Well I'm assuming since they did in fact choose him that it was exactly the sort of investigation that suited his talents".

That's a big assumption. Even Democrats I know in Washington think the guy is lucky to know how to tie his shoes. He's a self-aggrandising moron, to be honest.

You're also assuming a competent and non-c.y.a.ing CIA. which is equally a shaky assumption.
My problem with this 'just a vacation' stuff is that the criticism about the ACTUAL REPORT is minimal - if the report really was so poor you'd expect much stronger substantial remarks rather than innuendo. The report also needs to be poor (I feel) to substantiate the 'just a holiday' angle.
 

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jasonrh said:
Since the job was to hang out in Niger for a week or so, and then come home and bash the president, yes. I think so.
But the 'bash the president' line relies upon what the government did AFTER the visit doesn't it? If the guy came back saying the yellow cake story looks right they are getting nothing - and they still get nothing unless the Bush-camp use the yellow-cake allegation in their war-mongering.

So I view this as unlikely as well.
 

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Feedingseagulls said:
My problem with this 'just a vacation' stuff is that the criticism about the ACTUAL REPORT is minimal - if the report really was so poor you'd expect much stronger substantial remarks rather than innuendo. The report also needs to be poor (I feel) to substantiate the 'just a holiday' angle.
That's the point - what report?