The "Zlatan hinders our gameplay" brigade

[CamsUnited]

My take on it, it felt like we were set-up to play to Zlatan's strengths, which for me made us easier to stop. Zlatan couldn't run in behind and stretch defenses. It made us easier to defend against teams, would sit in and crowd out Zlatan.
Of course he would get a chance or 2 because it was the way we played.
I used to say the about RVN, incredible goal scorer but we seemed to struggle if he was effectively marked out the game, all changed when he left and with Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez we had threats from every angle. We went on another dominant spell after that.
I feel it's the same this season.
Or it could be, the fact we have Matic that Jose feels he can let the shackles off a bit.

 

[Raoul]

Manchester has higher ambitions than just having a striker that can score 28 goals. I'll grant you that Lewandowski scoring 4 goals against Madrid in 2013 was great for Dortmund in that one game to get to the finals, but other than that it's really more about winning the league, isn't it? For all the money you have, why pick Zlatan? And back then my opinion was that he was hired for his name and fame rather than what he actually brings to the board. I still stand by that. Manchester could've gotten much better players.

Zlatan just came off a season where he scored 50 goals. In terms of production, - French league or not - it didn't get much better than that.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I would start by looking at golden boy, run-a-lot, miss-a-lot, Rashford. He got tons of minutes last season with very little emd product.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love Rashford but it is amazing to me how one can look at our attack last season and not mention how bad Rashford's end product was, instead pointing the finger at the only one who was scoring goals.

Naff caff logic. Say anything to try and argue another player they favour for whatever reason is better. Z scored 28 goals and was going strong until the horrid injury. Even without him our goal return was far worse so there goes that theory...

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I felt we played just as good with Zlatan as we're playing now. Difference is, we didn't get the goals. We had chances, but didn't finish.

Last season, we were fourth in created chances (447), after Spurs (504), Liverpool (496) and Man City (482). However, when it came to goals, we scored 54 goals. Now, when you compare that to the other teams who had a similar amount of chances to us, we scored a lot less than them. Spurs (86), Chelsea (85), Man City (80), Liverpool (78). Even Bournemouth scored more than us, despite created 100 less chances than us.

This will definately need to improve, and it's only the second game of the season, but already other players are contributing to the goals, whereas last season, we heavily relied on Zlatan. Like I said, it's only the second game so I don't want to get too excited, but if players like Mkhitaryan, Mata, Rashford, Pogba, Martial, etc, can continue to score and assist, then we should definitely be up there nearing the end of the season.

http://www.squawka.com/football-tea...any#any#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total

 

[Lagger]

Zlatan just came off a season where he scored 50 goals. In terms of production, - French league or not - it didn't get much better than that.

I'm really not very impressed with 50 goals in the French League. Sure, you have to score those 50 goals to begin with, which is kind of a neat feat. But Manchester wants to win the CL. That's your goal, isn't it? What's Zlatan doing to help Manchester win the CL? Was it worth that one year? Did you feel improved over a period long enough to attack Madrid and Barcelona? Did anyone seriously believe he would stay for a time long enough to be called "era"?

No offense, I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it at all. I think he was a waste of time. A band aid to gloss over the lack of performance in the past few years. I never thought getting over the loss of SAF would take this long, tbh.

 

[Raoul]

I'm really not very impressed with 50 goals in the French League. Sure, you have to score those 50 goals to begin with, which is kind of a neat feat. But Manchester wants to win the CL. That's your goal, isn't it? What's Zlatan doing to help Manchester win the CL? Was it worth that one year? Did you feel improved over a period long enough to attack Madrid and Barcelona? Did anyone seriously believe he would stay for a time long enough to be called "era"?

No offense, I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it at all. I think he was a waste of time. A band aid to gloss over the lack of performance in the past few years. I never thought getting over the loss of SAF would take this long, tbh.

Not sure if you are serious or wumming.

 

[Lagger]

Not sure if you are serious or wumming.

I don't even know what wumming is. But getting you into the tournament is really not the same as winning it. Nobody gives a feck about the Europa League. Neither do you, if you're honest. For Manchester it's just the ticket into the real tournament, by your own ambitions. So where is he now?

 

[Jim Beam]

He also had moments of brilliance to score out of nothing. He also scored when it mattered most, deciding Community Shield and especially League Cup final. Heck, after that League Cup final people were talking about Cantona kind of impact and him carrying the team on his own. So, this, as many other threads, is pure revisionism.

I agree that Lukaku looks more suited for our faster transition but then again he also doesn't have some other qualities that Zlatan has and we are yet to see him in the big deciding games.

 

[Raoul]

I'll let the other posters sort this one out.

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

I don't even know what wumming is. But getting you into the tournament is really not the same as winning it. Nobody gives a feck about the Europa League. Neither do you, if you're honest. For Manchester it's just the ticket into the real tournament, by your own ambitions. So where is he now?

Out with a terrible injury?

 

[lawliet354]

Really hate this kind of thread

 

[Lagger]

Out with a terrible injury?

Big help then...

 

[Jim Beam]

I don't even know what wumming is. But getting you into the tournament is really not the same as winning it. Nobody gives a feck about the Europa League. Neither do you, if you're honest. For Manchester it's just the ticket into the real tournament, by your own ambitions. So where is he now?

This is getting crazy.

 

[Raoul]

Big help then...

The correct answer is Zlatan didn't help us win the Champions League because we weren't in the Champions League.

 

[Moonred]

Big help then...

What does that mean? Are you dense?

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

Big help then...

Yeah mate what a lazy fecker, should be out here backing up Lukaku and banging them in with his torn PCL to lead us to the CL. You have to be wumming or else I've just stepped into the twilight zone what the feck

 

[2 man midfield]

Big help then...

George Best hasn't played for us in a while either. Selfish bastard...

 

[Raoul]

The real question is why didn't De Gea contribute more to our EL campaign.

 

[pacifictheme]

The Zlatan is god brigade always take critiscim or just someone explains why he was a hinderance as blasphemy and they all get their shackles up and never actually listen.

I doubt you'll find anyone saying he isn't a great player. What most will be saying is that he was the wrong fit for the team and the other elements we had in it. He just wasn't suited to get the best out of the other players we had and he wouldn't make the selfless runs to create space for the others that you see Lukaku doing now.

Zlatans lack of forward mobility is why psg dropped him. Hes no longer good enough to lead the line for a team who wants to be one of the top teams in the premisership or europe.

Its got nothing to do with how good he was or his ability, but hes too one dimensional now. I imagine most defenders would rather play against zlatan who will drop deep, than lukaku who could drop deep, and could spin in behind you and burn you with his pace. You wouldn't know whether to give yourself a yard and allow him timr with a ball to feet, or run the risk of getting turned by getting too tight.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Zlatan, in his recent seasons is like a really, really powerful Berbatov - relatively slow, drops deep, 'gets involved', likes taking touching, likes showing how good on the ball he is.

Rom is way more of a runner and way, way more direct. And that's the single consistent thing we've lacked since SAF retired - directness.

It's odd that it's taken this long to fix it.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I don't want him back unless it's in some sort of coaching capacity cant understand why on earth we would pay huge wages to Zlatan If he is going to be sat on the bench 90% of the time.

Really don't like the way this is going it could potentially ruin our team cohesion.

 

[markhrad]

On most forums when a particular opinion gains traction it becomes gospel and anyone not agreeing with it gets vilified. This thread is a perfect example. Zlatan in no way slowed us down he just preferred link up play as opposed to fast counter attacks. He missed a few chances as do all strikers but do you think our score line, the last 2 matches, would have been different if Zlatan had played instead of Lukaku? In fact the way we have been playing towards the end of both matches favors Zlatan's style.
Anyway it seems as if we may soon have both of them in our squad and that should satisfy everyone.

 

[Wumminator]

Well obviously. It was clear watching us last year.

 

[Minimalist]

Did Wayne Rooney start this thread?

 

[MeUnited]

We were crap for 80 minutes yesterday. Zlatan would have done a lot more to help us create chances against Swansea, as he can actually be involved in the link-up play. This fawning over Lukaku and the discrediting of Zlatan is disgusting.

 

[Shark]

We were crap for 80 minutes yesterday. Zlatan would have done a lot more to help us create chances against Swansea, as he can actually be involved in the link-up play. This fawning over Lukaku and the discrediting of Zlatan is disgusting.

How were we crap? we were completely in control of the game, we made subs and battered them as they finally started to push forward. Swansea were camped in their box all game, so the amount of chances we actually created was more impressive, than not.

Your definition of crap, is fairly weird.

 

[Wumminator]

Did Wayne Rooney start this thread?

Interesting that he gets brought up a lot. Despite last year Rooney being the worst player of all time, he contributed a goal or assist once every 125 minutes.

Zlatan who obviously played a lot more can claim a goal or assist once every 113 minutes.

This is based on Europa and the prem according to whoscored.

What would have been interesting to see if their playtime were reversed and they carried on similarly. Wonder if fans who say "yeah criticise our top scorer, it must be their fault" would still carry on with that idea.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Zlatan was by far our best attacking player last season and scored a shit load of goals for us. I find it strange some posters want to put the blame on him for us having a disappointing league campaign. Zlatan scored our most important goals and dragged us to a league cup victory. I do think Lukaku suits our style better but that doesn't mean we have to sit here and criticise a player who was fantastic for us. Zlatan did his job last season.

 

[MeUnited]

How were we crap? we were completely in control of the game, we made subs and battered them as they finally started to push forward. Swansea were camped in their box all game, so the amount of chances we actually created was more impressive, than not.

Your definition of crap, is fairly weird.

We were crap in the same way we were crap under LVG. You can't think we played well? I can't think of any clear chance from open play other than a Swansea defender putting Rashford through. We created loads more chances against Stoke, Burnley and Bournemouth at home and we drew all those games. Lukaku has been a lot more clinical than Zlatan but in terms of helping the overall chance creation of the team, Lukaku won't be as good at that. Last season we would have 10-15 good chances to score and we didn't, yesterday we won 4-0 from 5 or 6 clear chances.

 

[Sandikan]

A bit harsh to say the least to blame Zlatan for this.
He was the focal point though, and doesn't have Lukaku's mobility, so there clearly is a difference.

But when you add in loads of other factors, like Martial and Mhky having their issues, Rooney being a problem, and too many from Mata/Rooney/Fellaini/Lingard/Carrick starting at once, it's obvious it wasn't just Zlatan.

I do wonder how we'd add him back into the team though, but that can't possibly be until January, and I dare say it'll feel like a big lift getting his character back amongst it, and he won't demand that starting spot every game like before.

 

[Shark]

We were crap in the same way we were crap under LVG. You can't think we played well? I can't think of any clear chance from open play other than a Swansea defender putting Rashford through. We created loads more chances against Stoke, Burnley and Bournemouth at home and we drew all those games. Lukaku has been a lot more clinical than Zlatan but in terms of helping the overall chance creation of the team, Lukaku won't be as good at that. Last season we would have 10-15 good chances to score and we didn't, yesterday we won 4-0 from 5 or 6 clear chances.

Rubbish. I think you need to go back and watch a few games under LVG, and then come back here.

 

[Sandikan]

Interesting that he gets brought up a lot. Despite last year Rooney being the worst player of all time, he contributed a goal or assist once every 125 minutes.

Zlatan who obviously played a lot more can claim a goal or assist once every 113 minutes.

This is based on Europa and the prem according to whoscored.

What would have been interesting to see if their playtime were reversed and they carried on similarly. Wonder if fans who say "yeah criticise our top scorer, it must be their fault" would still carry on with that idea.

Talk about "Stats can prove anything"
Straight away I remember a couple of Rooney "assists" where the ball cannoned off his oafish attempt at a shot, and amazingly rebounded for someone else to score. One in Europe that Ibra headed in, and there was at least another like that

 

[klayton88]

Stubbed my toe on the coffee table this morning. Cheers Zlatan you cock.

 

[MeUnited]

Rubbish. I think you need to go back and watch a few games under LVG, and then come back here.

I mean, you don't have an argument so just call it rubbish. Under LVG, we created barely any chances. Yesterday specifically, we created barely any chances (for the first 80 minutes). I'll list the chances I can remember, maybe you can remind me of some I forgot, Jones header (set play), goal we scored (set play), Rashford put through by Swansea defender. That's it. Yesterday was the type of game where Zlatan > Lukaku for me. Much more adept at using the ball in tight areas and moving it quickly to give us chances, whether he could finish them or not is a different question. Thankfully yesterday we scored a set piece so Swansea had to come at us, otherwise that game could easily have been another draw as we didn't look like scoring before that.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Not really. I'd say our other attacking players are simply showing more intent this season, but it's only been two games so let's assess after ten or something.

Lukaku was pretty effectively marked out of the game for 80 minutes yesterday and we didn't really look like scoring more than 1 goal until the point where we went fecking mental. Martial looked much better suddenly. Rashford more confident. Mkhi is actually assisting. Wasn't too impressed by Mata but he wasn't bad either.

I'd say if anything Matic makes a real difference at CDM. Frees up the Pog more.

 

[Moonred]

Interesting that he gets brought up a lot. Despite last year Rooney being the worst player of all time, he contributed a goal or assist once every 125 minutes.

Zlatan who obviously played a lot more can claim a goal or assist once every 113 minutes.

This is based on Europa and the prem according to whoscored.

What would have been interesting to see if their playtime were reversed and they carried on similarly. Wonder if fans who say "yeah criticise our top scorer, it must be their fault" would still carry on with that idea.

That isn't interesting at all unless your motivation is to scrape barrels.

 

[ghagua]

Don't agree of disagree with the assesment that he was slowing everything down, but the other players were in awe of him, and had to get the ball to him no matter what other attacking options were available. They can treat Lukaku just like any other player and get on with the attack with the best option available.

 

[el3mel]

Can people just enjoy our current players without slaughtering our previous players ?

 

[Prodigal7]

No one doubts Zlatans decreasing mobility is a disadvantage, but he can never be considered a hindrance and provided more for the team than any other attacking player last season IMO.

 

[sunama]

or is there more to it?

Matic at DM maybe?

(ponders where to place WUM trophy on mantlepiece)

Well last year, when Ibra got injured, we struggled to even create chances, let alone score goals. At least when Ibra was playing, we were creating chances, but couldn't score.
Also consider that we have only played 2 games so far, this season and our finishing has been ridiculously impressive.
Last season, we'd take around 20 shots on goal, to score once. This season, we had 38 shots and scored 8.

Let us a play a few more games and then we shall have more data to come to a better conclusion. 2 games is just too small a sample.