Ahh, I didn't realize it makes a different if he misses out via injury or not. Does it impact how our sides play if he is injured versus missing for some reason?
The "Zlatan hinders our gameplay" brigade
- Thread starter KM
- Start date
You really should stop insulting posters. I mean if you can't argue your point without resorting to insults, it must be a pretty weak point to begin with.
Are Martial or Rashford higher quality strikers than Zlatan? No. Do Martial and Rashford do more for the team than Zlatan? No. So why are they better options? Because youth and pace?
Zlatan is better at running the channels than Rashford despite being half the speed. Zlatan is better at playmaking than Martial despite being half the dribbler. Zlatan is obviously physically better than both combined. He is also a better goalscorer than both combined. The same people wanting inferior players to play instead of Zlatan will cry foul when Lingard gets games over Martial. Its all a game of favourites; no actual examination of the qualities each player brings.
Zlatan is on the same wavelength as Pogba, Mata, Herrera, Blind etc. He reads the game intelligently. Martial and Rashford have a one-track mind (especially Martial), they are not ready to lead the line. There is a reason Mourinho wants a physical striker in his teams; because he can bring others into play and also score on his own. Zlatan doesnt slow our play down he speeds it up and adds dynamism.
Hopefully we get a good replacement for Zlatan so Rashford and Martial can play without pressure and develop at their own pace. Both are still a few years away from being the right quality for the first team.
Zlatan is better at running the channels than Rashford despite being half the speed. Zlatan is better at playmaking than Martial despite being half the dribbler. Zlatan is obviously physically better than both combined. He is also a better goalscorer than both combined. The same people wanting inferior players to play instead of Zlatan will cry foul when Lingard gets games over Martial. Its all a game of favourites; no actual examination of the qualities each player brings.
Zlatan is on the same wavelength as Pogba, Mata, Herrera, Blind etc. He reads the game intelligently. Martial and Rashford have a one-track mind (especially Martial), they are not ready to lead the line. There is a reason Mourinho wants a physical striker in his teams; because he can bring others into play and also score on his own. Zlatan doesnt slow our play down he speeds it up and adds dynamism.
Hopefully we get a good replacement for Zlatan so Rashford and Martial can play without pressure and develop at their own pace. Both are still a few years away from being the right quality for the first team.
Your only "argument" in this thread has been to close the thread. Bring forth a proper argument, and I'd reply to that. Reply with nonsense, then don't cry off when someone calls you out with it.
Good post. This is how I see it as well. Pace is great to have, but doesn't help if you are running out of position. Putting yourself in the proper spaces and "feeling" the game is more important to me. That said, nothing wrong with being fast as well if you can apply it. Captain Obvious alert.
But, but we played Chelsea game without him. Surely that renders any other games as completely nonsense? I mean if we're taking one game as whether we're better without him then how about we take Blackburn away where we were struggling to win against a relegated Championship side.
Sadly I share that concern - we rarely score from corners/freekicks.
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2016-2017
seems to back that up...given everyone near us in the league is on double figures bar us
Take into context the fact that since he got injured, Pogba and Mata who are important in our creativity have missed matches through injuries too. Rojo is out too. In the league we have have not been playing our strongest 11.
That being said I would rather have Zlatan available I think the problem is that Jose was not brave enough to pick Rashford against teams that played a high line because those teams are usually the top 7 teams. These are the teams that Rashford thrives against. He has scored against Arsenal, man city and Chelsea in his short career so far. I think that's enough evidence that he thrives against these teams
I understand that. There was loads of talk about when he got injured as to whether this injury could be a blessing in disguise for us. There are some who argued that it wasn't, surely that has been proved right?
It's hard to read too much into our attacking play or lack there of these last two months seeing as Lingard has been a virtual ever present in that period.
In an attacking sense it's like playing with a man less.
In an attacking sense it's like playing with a man less.
I know it's said in a half jest, but there's always something, isn't there? It's Lingard, before it was Rooney (who somehow didn't stop Zlatan from scoring), it's tough games, it's the approach, it's lack of midfielder X, it's Fellaini, it's shit at the back so the attackers cannot attack, it's goalkeepers turning into goats, etc., etc.
Erm, no.
And b), he's our top chance creator by a mile this season so "all about the goals" is pure drivel.
I'm not sure, I think it's possible that the others could have kept us operating better than we have. They're all missed tbh.
Zlatan is our top scorer and top chance creator, surely he's missed more than others attacking wise. I think him and Pogba are by far the two most important players in our side.
I feel like our worst performances happen when Pogba doesn't play, not Zlatan, we drop a level without Pogba and it shows.
Yep. Its absolutely nonsense to try to analyze each game on its own merit with and without Zlatan. Games do not exist in a vacuum. It makes much more sense to look at the system you are playing and the profile of players that fit into the system. It is not Zlatan that is slowing down our play it is our crap wide players ie. Rashford, Martial, Lingard. Is it a surprise that when Mkhitaryan and Mata play we look much more fluid, it is because they have the qualities to play in the system!
The exact same can be said in the games where we have been completely dominated in midfield. When you have Carrick and/or Rooney in midfield without Pogba you are going to get dominated in most systems; they do not have the mobility, work rate or physicality. Rooney's obviously not a midfielder but Carrick has been dominated by Adam Lallana of all people in midfield; the only thing that can make up for Carrick's shortcomings is a time machine because Carrick was fantastic in his late 20s.
Probably is, but I can imagine what (b) mainly comprises,
.Apart from those 2-3 times he played a clever-ish pass beyond the wit of any other player ever & we're all supposed to wet ourselves over it because it was Zlatan The God of the Assist.
Why weren't we winning the league by 20 points? <---- more subtly disguised pass-agg - probably the same reason we're still crap now I would have thought.
The favourites post was a good one until it got on to ''Zlatan's dynamics'' -
I don't buy the Chelsea game as a good example for 'our' side - single game where the timing of our goals was too good to be true really. I wouldn't have seen being brilliant in either half without the scoring of the goals - they totally changed the shape of the game for me.
The main issue i had with those people's statements was that they vastly overrated Martial and Rashfords abilities. Also their will for quick interlinking play over everything, this wasn't the season for such ambitions.
Top strikers tend to win you games, the game is usually that simple.
Top strikers tend to win you games, the game is usually that simple.
Is this English?Probably is, but I can imagine what (b) mainly comprises,
Apart from those 2-3 times he played a clever-ish pass beyond the wit of any other player ever & we're all supposed to wet ourselves over it because it was Zlatan The God of the Assist.
Why weren't we winning the league by 20 points? <---- more subtly disguised pass-agg - probably the same reason we're still crap now I would have thought.
The favourites post was a good one until it got on to ''Zlatan's dynamics'' -
I don't buy the Chelsea game as a good example for 'our' side - single game where the timing of our goals was too good to be true really. I wouldn't have seen being brilliant in either half without the scoring of the goals - they totally changed the shape of the game for me.
Quite possibly, but it would have been interesting to see how we'd have coped with only him missing.
I did say in my first reply that I don't agree that he's a hindrance.
Probably not, tbf. But especially if you don't want to see & never did want to see anything apart from Zlatan, Zlatan & Zlatan.Is this English?
However, I hate Zlatan (except for the Cup Final) & don't mind admitting it,
.So you think he's ok only when he win us something? Gloryhunter!Probably not, tbf. But especially if you don't want to see & never did want to see anything apart from Zlatan, Zlatan & Zlatan.
However, I hate Zlatan (except for the Cup Final) & don't mind admitting it,
It has always been a stupid statement to make especially given the fact that our squad is bang average and Zlatan is only one of the few world class players we have.
Oh I didn't realize that by morons you just meant me, note for the future. Use the singular term moron if you are talking to one person.
Given that you were struggling to name one good performance and the post which I quoted did name a good one, I thought your initial point was moot. As others have responded, we were just as poor with zlatan as without him and there have been contingency factors which explains the loss in form.
None of which has anything to do with you resorting to insults, my initial post didn't insult you and your response says a lot about you. Using words like morons isn't equal to calling people out.
Why close thread?Close thread
We played one good game without Ibra, while all the other games have been crap.
While I did not expect Martial/Rashford to improve, I did expect Miki to step up to the plate, when Ibra and Mata were both out.
Miki is now our most senior attacker, yet he shows no leadership qualities you'd normally expect from an older and more accomplished player. If there is one player who needs the hairdryer treatment its Miki. Probably our most talented and complete attacker, who is not injured and he does not show anything on the pitch.
There are MUFC fans on this board who don't realise just how good Miki was last season. It's as if he has had a brain transplant!
I wish he was back to "hinder" our game some more
This is a post with great points. I think its pretty evident theres a lack of trust amongst the players. Not anticipating the knock down or a cross. By the time they move the chance is gone. This clearly doesnt happen with the likes of pogba and zlatan, because they have trust, they expect the pass to be on point. Ive noticed rashford and martial are fairly reactive players. Maybe this will come with experience but both have a lot to learn in the actual art of the game. Raw pace amd power will only get you so far.
You can't have it all. The man has been incredible for Utd this season. No one has turned up and taken responsibility like Zlatan. He has his limitations and it may seem like he's holding back Rashford in terms of development but who woundnt want him on the pitch in Sweden? Oh how I wish he never did get injured
'Gameplay'? Jesus.
Chelsea. Thread. Unlucky.
World class player no doubt. I was pleased in a way that Rashford and Martial would get some game time but didn't realise his injury was so severe.
In reality I think people were just looking for positives from a shit situation but there is no doubt we are far worse for not having him available.
In reality I think people were just looking for positives from a shit situation but there is no doubt we are far worse for not having him available.
I agree, but I don't think Zlatan is the perfect fit for our offense. Not because of his lack of mobility, but because he tends to hold on to the ball far too long in my opinion and poor conversion rate. With young players you have to make it easy and it's harder to execute when you hold on to the ball and let the opponent get into their defensive shape. Still miles ahead of any other option we have as shown by the last few games.
Actually, someone holding the ball is exactly what we need when winning the ball back and transitioning. You are not suppose to counter as soon as you win the ball, good teams rarely do this because they have good enough techinque/passing and hold up to retain possession after winning the ball. This is difficult to do for average/bad teams hence they mostly can't get out of their half against top teams. This is one of the reasons why alot of smaller clubs play with a big man upfront, because they don't have the skill to play themselves out of their half like bigger teams do.
When Zlatan played for Barcelona, he wasn't used as a hold up player since they were so good at passing it around and retaining possession without having to use him. Here, Ibra and Pogba are the best ones at holding it up and you can clearly see how much we're missing this since we don't have such quality players to do it differently.
The argument for Zlatan holding us back(apart from conversion) is the lack of pace mostly. The problem with this statement is that we haven't got the fast fluid movement upfront since he got injured. Yes we haven't been able to always play our best team but that shouldn't be an excuse. Zlatan was not playing with the best possible 11 around him all the time either. Rooney, Martial and Fellaini in the beggining at the season for example didn't stop him from playing well.
After Zlatans injury we were still playing the same players that were part of the first team at some point during the season. Against Tottenham, we were arguably only Pogba away from what shouldn't be so far away from full strength with the exception of Tuanzebe. It's not like our pacey players upfront had to play with a bunch of youngsters behind them.
Jose reverting to negative tactics after Zlatan's injury is probably directly because of loosing Zlatan's hold up abilty, and Pogba's as well in some games where he didn't feature. Not only that but loosing our only goalscoring outlet probably had something to do with it. If you're less likely to score then the apparent option is to try minimising your opponents chances, at least it is with Jose's tactics.
I understand that Rashford/Martial haven't had enough chances to prove what they can do as a lone striker but this far everything points to us having to get someone to replace Zlatan for next season. Although I think Martial is more suited to the wing anyway. There isn't really much time left for anyone of the attackers to cement a place for the new season. Even if we get Griezmann we still need another striker. I'm pretty sure Lingard, Rashford and Mikhi will stay but Martial is doubtfull I would say for next season.
Edit: Sorry for the long post.
That is exactly what counterattacking is. Not letting the opposing team set into a defensive shape.
I agree but it is rarely top teams play like this. Doing that is always a gamble, chances you're gonna loose the ball or not be able to make much of the attack are much higher than something positive happening. But the important thing is to have clever players who can assess the situation, if it is worth going for the counter in any given moment. I would say this attribute comes with experience. Another question is if you have good enough players to execute on the counter. I don't think we have either. People seem to think that you will automatically be good at countering as long as you have pacey attackers.
Four things were guaranteed when Zlatan played for us:
- Better entertainment (The team was more likely to play with some flair and creativity and there was always going to be the hilarious Zlatan sound bites before or after the game)
- Multiple goalscoring chances would be created
- Zlatan would score
- Zlatan would miss chances
Overall, we had the most fun this season when Zlatan was fit.
- Better entertainment (The team was more likely to play with some flair and creativity and there was always going to be the hilarious Zlatan sound bites before or after the game)
- Multiple goalscoring chances would be created
- Zlatan would score
- Zlatan would miss chances
Overall, we had the most fun this season when Zlatan was fit.
Zlatan vs Lukaku
I was never fully in the anti Zlatan camp as he did alright for us I thought. However, I said it before that his style of play and misses early in the season last year cost us quite a bit. He would have never gotten in the position to score the very first goal that Lukaku did.
Holy necro, batman!
Ibra was constantly making the runs that Lukaku made for the first goal. Would he have scored.....questionable. He missed plenty of those sorts of chances while getting in good positions.
Fair point but the only alternative last season to Zlatan Was Rashford who isn't as good as Lukaku. This season the scenario has changed and I think it'll be detrimental if we sign Zlatan back.