No way we should take a punt on another manager who has no credentials at the top level. Isn't the present dud enough evidence that managing in a small league/club is not the same as managing Manchester United.
Thiago Motta - Bologna
- Thread starter Berbaclass
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I expect him to be picked up by Juventus
So you limit yourself to ex managers of Madrid, Barca, Bayern and our rivals (who wouldn’t come)?Who are these success stories at those clubs you’d want us to hire who are also available ? Managing every club is different and the sure shot isn’t available. We pretty much have to take a punt given the market and the team we currently have. ETH was proven enough - multiple league winner at a big club. He just hasn’t been good enough for us like Jose, LVG and Co
In a farmer's league, you forgot to mention that. Which his why his very limited skillset got exposed so badly here. All I am saying is don't follow the same pattern again.
You can’t hire only from the supposed non-farmeds premier league otherwise you’ll be stuck with mid table managers who have faced a tenth of the pressure at Ajax. I don’t know why fans create these criterias. If a Roy Keane level talent pops up in the Bundesliga you’d want us to avoid signing him?
Which pattern has worked for us btw? The successful one - Jose? Or the building foundations one - LvG? It’s not about category xyz failing, it’s about the individual failing. If the best manager out there happens to be playing his trade in Italy, you shouldn’t avoid him due to a phobia.
He has a lot in common with Solskjær when he got the interim job. Young, played on the highest level, tactically smart as a player, has played under top coaches, has modern influences, has done good stuff but not on the level required. What he lacks is the DNA knowledge and the feelgood goodwill that saw Solskjær win 14 in 17 and topple PSG to land the manager position.
I think the point about Lippi is fair, but needs a qualification: We, the general public, didn’t know much to say he would be a legendary coach. But we didn’t pick him either. Someone at Juve picked him, based on knowledge of a different sort than we have access to. Hopefully Ashworth, Wilcox, Berrada et al will have a good method to pick a good prospect for the Man Utd job, and it will be based on more than being able to pick up latter Mourinho levels of points in Serie A and having a known name, which seems to be enough for some to get the grass-is-greener-juices flowing (not meaning you, here).
Hopefully they are also open minded, the clear standouts are Alonso and Inzaghi but indications are we are not getting either. This means we will need to be creative as a club, recognize the traits we want in a coach, see whether they are transferable, judge whether he has the grit and be prepared to back him unless he starts doing plainly idiotic things like ETH is doing.
We can't demand that our potential coach be this high achiever when the big achievements are now closed shops with how money and organization have closed up opportunities for smaller clubs. Hasn't the CL been shared by just three or so clubs over the past six years, the PL by two clubs over the past six years? Even third or fourth look locked in.
And when you look at the winners beyond those like Pep and Klopp who won't come who do you see as the ideal? So getting a smallish team performing well beyond their budget and standing in the game could be an indicator of talent and competence. Currently that's where I am at, if a coach is consistently doing well, sticking to his principles and showing something different I am not averse to him being given a chance.
In an ideal world, we get Alonso or Inzaghi or even pull a shocker with the greatest sensational betrayal ever, getting Klopp in but that's never happening. So we look at the most talented coaches, back them up with a strong structure of experienced football heads we are putting togethrr, clear the toxins in the dressing room and back them for a few seasons. If its not working, with no visible progress then move on and maybe the market is better in two years time.
CL: 5 different clubs won the last 6 trophies… Only Madrid won it twice. 8 different clubs reached finals. (The last 4 finals ended 1-0)
PL: 2 different clubs won the last 6 trophies… City won 5 and Pool got 1… 4 different clubs made the top 2. (We did it twice)
Personally reckon he has more in common with the likes of Xabi Alonso or a young Luis Enrique, with regard to diversity of thought (by virtue of training under a broad spectrum of tacticians and personalities in disparate environments). On top of playing on the highest level of club football, being tactically smart and things of that nature.
- Alonso: played in La Liga, the Premier League and the Bundesliga. Trained under Toshack, Benítez, Aragonés, Pellegrini, Mourinho, del Bosque, Guardiola, Ancelotti.
- Enrique: played in La Liga for Madrid and Barcelona, managed in Serie A. Trained under Antić, Beenhakker, del Bosque, Clemente, Valdano, Robson, Camacho, van Gaal.
- Motta: played in La Liga and Serie A, managed in Serie A. Trained under van Gaal, Rijkaard, Gasperini, Mourinho, Prandelli, Ranieri, Ancelotti, Conte, Blanc.
There is some truth to DNA thing however. As a young coach, Cruyff had a thorough understanding of Ajax and then Barcelona — he could waltz into either club and immediately command respect. del Bosque knew how Madrid worked, Capello knew how Milan worked, Guardiola knew how Barcelona worked, Arteta knew how Arsenal worked, and so forth. There was a sense of comfort and belonging there, and Arsenal in particular were extremely patient with Arteta (who would have been sent packing at another orgnization in all likelihood, which might have derailed his development and altered the course of his emergant coaching career).
As a prospective head coaching candidate, Motta is not a familiar face, is not one of our own, and does not have a profoud level of trust with Manchester United. It's not a prerequisite by any means, but it can help the case of certain developing managers, no doubt. Staying at Bologna or maybe moving to Juventus (if they want to patiently rebuild) makes more sense for him, at this moment in time. It's not Internazionale (where he is fondly remembered by most supporters) and the pressure and scrunity would be much greater than at Bologna, but he has an intimate understanding of Serie A football and would have better resources at his disposal to challenge for the Scudetto and progressively rehabilitate Juventus as a European contender.
That’s what a lot of social media/some media are saying
I haven't watched a single minute of Bologna under him but the league position looks healthy. What sort of football has he got them playing?
This is why one day in the future I expect Carrick to be our manager. He played under managers at Tottenham (possibly Redknapp), SAF, Moyes & LVG (who he and rooney big up alot).
Heard he hasn't been good enough this season but if we are going to have our Arteta then I think it would be Carrick.
I’m just here to add that I loved watching him as a player. Very Carrick like with a bit more of an edge. Played for great teams and with great players so that’s a plus. Ancelotti, Pep, Arteta, Alonso and Motta all played similar roles so maybe there’s something there.
Its a unique brand. He plays 4-3-3 with liberos and loads of rotations in midfield with forth, back and through passing combos. Based around attacking space either created or available. Ala Bielsa he likes to over load one flank with diamonds then switch to the opposite one whilst attacking. He also coaches a highly organized press out of possesion. He arguable has the best base set up for playing out of most pressing structures out there. It would be interesting to see it at a bigger level of club.
Indeed. Even better for him Juve are currently loaded with a fine group of young players, mouldable and ready to ignite. Plus their financial plight means if they hire post Allegri they are bound to give him the patience and fully commit because they currently don't have the resources to just hire and fire.
Thanks for the insight. Sounds interesting for sure.
Sure, Motta has more in common with those you mention, I was just finding him comparable to Solskjær out of our former post-F managers. His ‘teachers’ list is less varied and impressive, to be sure, but also underestimated by many - he played under a legendary NT coach Egil Drillo Olsen aka ‘The Mad Professor’, who lifted Norway way beyond their capacity over several years and was about to revolutionize Wimbledon when stupid rich playboys Gjelsten & Røkke dismantled the entire club under his feet; he also played under Åge Hareide, the only coach to have won the Danish, Swedish AND Norwegian league, and who have done well as NT coach for both Denmark and Norway; in addition I see him as training under Queiroz and Meulensteen, two not great managers but brilliant coaches handpicked by Ferguson as practically head coaches. Still nothing like those you mentioned, but there is in my opinion a lot of high quality learning to be had there.
Anyway, my main comparison with Motta is Ten Hag. Looking at Ten Hag before coming to United, it would sound like madness to suggest Motta ahead of him, based on their management/head coach credentials. I would say I would be greatly surprised as well, if we time-warped current Motta back to take the reins after Rangnik, that I would be shocked if he had produced better results, football or reorganization than Ten Hag has in that time. Nothing from the outside implies he would be in a good stead to handle the chaos Man utd was, in full public scrutiny with all that entails. This is just what I believe. If knowledgeable people looking closely at Ten Hag and Motta would see differently, I will be corrected, but I haven’t heard anything to that effect.
To me it sounds more like wishful thinking that exactly this head coach taking a mid table team into top 4/5 in a big 5 league (above a Potter, a De Zerbi, a Moyes, a Gasperini, a Howe, an Emery, a Valverde, a Michel, an Urs Fischer, a Fonseca, an Eric Roy, etc etc) is going to have what it takes to manage United better than Ten Hag will, given time and good structure.
Well there's a lot of talk Allegri is leaving Juve come the summer and Motta is top of their list. He also played for Barca, who are looking for a new manager.
Never say never, but it seems unlikely. He's also still fairly unproven, so it would still be just as big a punt as EtH was. Maybe more so, as I don't think he's ever managed a club in the UCL.
Let's build a squad of players that fit the club's ethos, using the football hierarchy we've just employed, and then we can figure out what manager we want. There is zero point in potentially ruining another up and coming manager by throwing him into the shitshow that is our existing setup.
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God that would be cruel to the bloke. Maybe in a year or 18 months when he has a bit more experience and we have actually established a proper structure in the club. Right now it would kill his career before it started.
I like Motta in theory.
I genuinely think he can basically copy and paste his Bologna side into this group of players. We do have some profile fits that make it an interesting thought experiment.
His Bologna side would get relegated in the Premier League to be fair.
You seem very knowledgeable and express yourself well. So please hear the following as me trying to engage for the benefit of my knowledge rather than being argumentative.
In terms of this perspective, I'd agree that the data on Motta is limited. It's basically one and a half good seasons, some hipster tactical chatter (especially the mythical 2-7-2 thing), an interesting player profile and a good looking, exotic vibe. These factors can definitely make someone take on a hype that isn't really warranted; see Marco Rose, Villas Boas, Pirlo etc.
Thing is, basically every contender for the United job available has a significant asterisk next to their name. I'd say it's easier to spot who isn't suitable than who is. As a fanbase, we can also be quite reactive in terms of what we want from managers - i.e. after dour Mourinho, vibes Ole was refreshing but then studious Rangnick was embraced etc. Now everyone seems to want a charismatic manager as it is seen as a weakness in ETH. So I'm aware that we can be biased towards someone like Motta, especially with Alonso, whose profile is quite similar, kicking ass in Germany.
All I'd say though is that we've tried everything post Fergie. We've gone for a big variety of manager profiles. None have worked consistently. Ultimately we just need the right person in the right setup. Not the right person in the wrong setup or the wrong person in the right setup. If Pep of Barca B days was available right now, would you take him? If Klopp when he was at Mainz was available, would you take him? Or do they have to have proved something at the top level? Is the problem with United really that we've chosen the wrong person, not the wrong profile? I'd say so. Same with our signings. Sanchez and Pogba failing doesn't mean we shouldn't buy ready made, top class players. We just need the right ready made, top class players. Pellistri and Martial failing doesn't mean we shouldn't buy promising 19 year olds. We just need the right 19 year olds.
So I guess I'm agreeing with your reluctance to go mad for Motta, given the limited success we've seen thus far and the factors that could be bringing false hype... but also wondering if you have anything concrete that makes you think he's the wrong guy? Thanks in advance.
Edit - Just an additional point... I'm not so sure the DNA knowledge is really relevant for our situation. I think DNA alignment is important and hopefully Ashworth and co define it properly. But I really don't see it as a factor because we're currently in great flux and our DNA of the last 10 years has proven to be fairly rotten and inefficient for modern football. We need someone to help us shape a new DNA. Obviously there's non negotiables that I hope continue to be weaved in through the fabric of the club - academy players being given a chance and propensity more towards attack than defence. Beyond that, I think we shouldn't really be wedded to much else. Especially not formations as some of the brightest young coaches play 3 at the back.
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It's not often mentioned but one thing that I have always liked about the likes of Thiago Motta or Maxwell is that they were described by their teammates as class acts and respectful leaders.
I love him. I actually know feck all about him but he’s young, exotic and apparently playing exciting football with something called liberos which is too sexy football for me to even understand
sign me up and I’ll give him 5 games before called him a Spanish fraud
sign me up and I’ll give him 5 games before called him a Spanish fraud
Thought this was going to be a suggestion about signing him as a backup midfielder....
Midfielders tend to be the best managers nowadays
Not saying anything about whether it's the right or wrong decision, but we did do that with our last two managers tbf.
Ten Hag isn’t actually young at all — he was 52 when we appointed him. Ole was 45, so he’s a similar-ish age group to Motta who is 41.
Indeed. Unfortunately I believe we have many who don't fit too sadly....
.Truth be told, though. If he were to have the right structure above him and high end ability to recruit and sell compently. Plus be ready to fully commit to his ideas. A manager like him would never be a bad pick to build a new regime around if we were thinking outside the traditional recruitment box. Especially with the potential of the kind of young talent we do have coming through in key areas.
For that reason too Barcelona and Juventus are potentially great fits for him if he chooses to leap to a big club at the end of this season. Because apparently his contract is winding down and he has been mullling over an extension about a year.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the style of football he’s playing also incredibly boring to watch? Lots of possession in their own half and the most passes in the league. If we return to LVG style football I will cry.
“Born in Brazil, Motta also holds Italian citizenship” how do you call frauds from Italy & Brazil?
5 points ahead of Roma (the side that recently destroyed Brighton) and 10/11 above Lazio & Napoli.., do you think Napoli or Lazio (teams that manage to qualify from their CL groups - hello Ten Haag!!—) would get relegated in the PL ?
he's like the spanish Morata
Easily yeah. There is a huge difference between a cup and a league season and most Italian teams would get dramatically found out if you put them in the Premier League.
Not really a comment on Motta just that trying to replicate something because it worked at such a drastically lower level may not necessarily work.
I'll never understand why people waste their own time and the time or others by bothering to make posts like these.
Such a stupid opinion doesn't deserve much time.