Who would you suggest? I don't know of anyone that is qualified to rebuild this squad at this time.
Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
More trophies than the long term solutions anyway.
And that was without even doing the short term Mourinho solution correctly, stopping half way through.
Is it though? I feel like this is a myth perpetuated by the Bayern media and lapped up by the fans. They are having an okay season, and would probably win the title again if Xabi didn't show up. Wheels haven't come off at all despite the classless mid-season announcement, and the more shots the board take at him, the more it looks like he's being hounded out.
Trophies, let down by poor recruitment and bad structure. LVG laid some decent foundations and was the only one who had us looking like a tactical, possession based team.
Even if it weren't for Leverkusen and he won the league, that's not the metric alone at Bayern. You have to look how they play and they just don't look like an elite side. They look like a good side with more match winners than most. The same as his Chelsea and PSG sides looked. The last time his team looked it had a proper foundation that could sustain a consistent league campaign was at Dortmund. He is a brilliant tactician but that's not enough to build a team that can play well over a season and more whereby the results are a consequence of the quality of play. His tactical nous means he can devise a good strategy to deal with particular challenges which comes in very handy in cup competitions. The big clubs need more than that, hence the no interest especially at a time when so many big clubs are looking for a new manager.
Ok then, why is it ok to publicly applaud a player but not ok to chastise them for poor perfances when they’re letting the team down?
Are they untouchable?
There are no long term managers at big clubs today. There are only short term managers who get the desired results for long enough.
Thomas Tuchel is an elite tactician. He's one of the best in the world in terms of setting teams up for knockout ties. He's a smart guy with great communication skills.
The problem with Tuchel lies in his behaviour, temper and self-control. He has shown a clear tendency of falling out with boards, directors and owners. His man-management is decent but can go wrong with certain players, just like any other manager in the world. So, the main issue is with the people who hired him.
United need a character and a tactician. They need a guy with a big personality who isn't a yes-man like Ole. Ten Hag has the charisma of a wet towel. Tuchel has the tactical nous, experience on the big stage and the big personality along with it.
Tuchel will never tolerate the likes of Rashford half-arsing a press. The fans would love him.
The only risky thing with him would be a volatile relationship with the board. I think it's worth a shot. If things go south, another manager gets sacked and the next guy comes in.
Cancelo fell out with Pep? What happened? City got rid of him as soon as they could. Arteta was a rookie when he fell out with Arsenal's star player. The club sided with the manager.
The player-power culture is a death sentence for a club like United where the manager is supposed to be such an iconic and influential figure. This ain't Roman's Chelsea.
Ten Hag got the club's backing but he just lacks the charisma and personality needed for the job. People also majorly overestimated his tactical ability and style of play which is abysmal.
Thomas Tuchel is an elite tactician. He's one of the best in the world in terms of setting teams up for knockout ties. He's a smart guy with great communication skills.
The problem with Tuchel lies in his behaviour, temper and self-control. He has shown a clear tendency of falling out with boards, directors and owners. His man-management is decent but can go wrong with certain players, just like any other manager in the world. So, the main issue is with the people who hired him.
United need a character and a tactician. They need a guy with a big personality who isn't a yes-man like Ole. Ten Hag has the charisma of a wet towel. Tuchel has the tactical nous, experience on the big stage and the big personality along with it.
Tuchel will never tolerate the likes of Rashford half-arsing a press. The fans would love him.
The only risky thing with him would be a volatile relationship with the board. I think it's worth a shot. If things go south, another manager gets sacked and the next guy comes in.
And if you coddle these lazy overpaid bums, then they will be putting in half-hearted performances week in week out so it's better that a guy with a bigger personality comes in and is given the sort of power Pep, Klopp and Arteta have in their clubs.
Cancelo fell out with Pep? What happened? City got rid of him as soon as they could. Arteta was a rookie when he fell out with Arsenal's star player. The club sided with the manager.
The player-power culture is a death sentence for a club like United where the manager is supposed to be such an iconic and influential figure. This ain't Roman's Chelsea.
Ten Hag got the club's backing but he just lacks the charisma and personality needed for the job. People also majorly overestimated his tactical ability and style of play which is abysmal.
Do Bayern look bad? I don't watch much Bundesliga.
Their data certainly isn't bad. xGD/90 is 1.72 -- higher than Leverkusen, xG per game is 2.63 -- those are elite numbers and they register on the top of the big five leagues for these metrics.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/Big-5-European-Leagues-Stats
Significant improvement over last season:
https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/2022-2023/2022-2023-Big-5-European-Leagues-Stats
Kane is scoring for fun, Sane and Musiala are doing well.
Nothing here looks out of place either: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/german-bundesliga-stats-2023-24/
Those radars are what I'd expect for a side like City.
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Nowhere special, but the major trophies that we've won in the last 11 years were with them.
Long term or short term shouldn't matter, just hire the best manager possible and see where we go from there.
He didn't lose the league with PSG, they were one point off the top. But for context, they started the season with lots of injuries and illnesses(including Covid).
With PSG he was excellent while having to deal with some serious BS from Enrique and Leonardo.
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Generally speaking it might be effective to use Bayern as a blueprint based on how we could emulate the successful relationship they have with the fans in particular. A first class stadium and the how’ve they’ve utilised established older players to their advantage especially given their seasonal ability of making it through to the latter stages of the UCL. Tuchel is a proven winner and in my mind should be a strong contender to take over from ETH.
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Bayern look short of the very best and to me that's bad by their standards especially considering I can't see any mitigating circumstances. He's been there over a year now and got one of the best defenders and strikers in world football in the summer, yet he spent most of his time there complaining about he has no number 6 and pissed off half the club. Their level is good by most standards but by the standards a club of their stature, resources and conditions, it is well below par. If that was a first, you write it off as one of them things... but when you add to it how things went at Chelsea in terms of league consistency and I am thinking this is a guy close to Rafa Benitez. Brilliant tactician but just not able to make a big club play consistently top football.
The three best clubs in English football now do have long terms managers. The best club in Italy now has a manager who is going to his fourth year with a new contract on the table. What are you on about when you say there are no long term managers? Even Real has a manager now who will go to his fourth year next season. Tuchel never lasted more than 2 seasons since his days at Mainz! Again what are you on about?
Worth mentioning the bookmakers have taken a view and now make Tuchel favourite for the next United managers job.
That is a key thing. The guys above the manager needs to back him 100%.
The pressure from media and a good section of our online fans will be immense. Both the groups love to moan about crisis at United
Problem with Tuchel for me is that it's not only short term appointment but it's also short sighted one , even a short term appointment would be palatable if it aligns with long term view but I just don't see that happening with Tuchel .
It's more of an appointment looking for quick fix to get Champions league football nothing else .
LVG probably would have been a good start if we didn't follow him immediately with a manager who was basically the complete opposite. He wasn't the right manager himself, but follow him up with a manager who also wanted possession and control (but who could also build an attacking system) and it would have been a natural evolution.
Because public criticism can be very easily interpreted as scapegoating and deflection. Or even bullying. Because work relationships are not on even footing, a player cannot publicly criticise the manager without repercussions.
Also how does not criticising them publicly make them untouchable, can you explain that? Players that aren't criticised publicly cannot be dropped to the bench and sold at the end of the season, or what?
Yet Poch dealt with the same knobheads, didn’t know the squad, got more points per game and they moved one position up to second.
The one point was the difference in them losing the league that season.
So who lost it then if not the guy who lost 4 in 17 compared to the new guy coming in mid-season and losing 4 in 21?
The one who lost it was Poch as he was there until the point they couldn’t win it that season. It was arguably more due to the time under Tuchel but he didn’t actually lose the league title as he wasn’t there.
Completely agreed! I am not against a short term appointment by principle. If Ancelotti or Pep decide for some reason that they want to step out this summer, their clubs might be better advised to make a short term appointment. The team is already established with strong leadership from above and their players can coach themselves at this point with transfer decisions coming from sources that have a lot of credit already. But us? We have nothing, we are building from scratch basically, we are in no position at this stage to afford someone who is merely a good tactician like a Tuchel or Conte or a great man manager like a Zidane or Ancelotti. These guys work best when the environment is already established and they are left to coach without being responsible for giving the team an identity.
I dunno mate. If your definition for success in Europe is CL winner, your so-called “pro-active” football, there are probably more clubs / winners of the final that are not tiki-taka. If you include Klopp’s gegenpressing sides as “proactive” maybe it’s less lopsided?I honestly don't know at this point
I used to think that we need a progressive manager who excels at coaching pro active football, because apart from Real Madrid, there hasn't been a successful club in Europe over the past decade that did not play very structured pro active football. I still think that but as I said, I think for the English game in particular, an intense almost obsessive character and a personality of a unifier and someone who is ready and happy to immerse himself in the club like Klopp or Arteta did for their clubs is also a requirement in my view. Ten Hag possesses the former but is severely lacking in the latter.
If we look at who fits that criteria this century, they either came unexpectedly and were relatively untested like Pep at Barcelona, Arteta at Arsenal or Alonso at Leverkusen (I am not saying they are the same quality by the way, just that they stand out with varying levels of success) or managers who did superbly well at an inferior league like Mourinho at Poro or Klopp at Dortmund. So I suppose for the profile I think we should be looking for, it should come from one of these sources. The former is very difficult for us because our former players are just not tacticians, they seem resentful of tactics if anything and are big proponents of the throw players at it and let them figure it out school of coaching. It leaves us with someone similar to Ten Hag's profile but with a much a more charismatic personality. To throw a name out there, I really like what Inzaghi is doing at Inter but I am not sure about his command of English.
Counter centric
Real (5x), Chelsea (2x) AC Milan (2x), Man United (1x), Inter (1x), Porto (1x) Benitez’s Liverpool (1x) = 13
Possession based:
Barca (4x), Bayern (2x), City (1x), Liverpool (1x) =8
Nar feck that he got fired cause he put the easiest league title in Europe at stake with an awful 4 losses in 17. For context the following season Poch lost just 4 in 38.
Poch despite coming in mid season managed 2.23 points pers game, a tally that would’ve taken the title over the entire season. No question it was lost in the Tuchel period.
Stick with Ten Hag until the right manager becomes available. That should be a modern younger one: I can mention names but don‘t know enough about them.
Farioli, Inzaghi, Motta, Glasner.
Bizarre take. Bayern is going to score 95ish in 34 matches this season, more than last year.
I for one, would be happy to see a manager that is flexible in tactics rather than the shite being served up by Ten Hag. Story on Tuchel’s tactics vs Real below.
https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...tactical-changes-real-madrid-champions-league
I am amazed that there are people who want Tuchel here
They have been better than Nagelsmanns version. And yes while Kane helps their defence is horrible. Our defence is shocking and yet we Dier wouldn't get a spot with us.
There are managers I would rather have but none are really available and of the choice is between Ten Hag and Tuchel I would take Tuchel any day.
Poch is doing worse with Chelsea and PSG where shite in Europe under him.
I can't really speak for what they want because I don't know. There was some speculation Wilcox wanted us to become more of a possession team but there isn't much detail on that.
I'd like us to become more of a possession team longer term too, but not if it's at the cost of remaining competitive in the shorter term. We might have to be pragmatic and do it in stages. One step back to go two steps forward kind of thing.
I guess you don't have to be as transparent as that with the manager. You can just give him a shorter contract and say it can be extended if things go well.
Same thing as above really, that's fine, but I'm not sure the manager you want really exists. If they did, I would take them over Tuchel as well.
Came out and criticised Kim for both Real goals, wonder how the media would react if he was doing that to Maguire.
It's normal to criticize a specific player. Tuchel did it yesterday, but when Ten Hag criticizes Garnacho, the media are quick to judge Ten Hag's man management.
Especially we gotta consider how he treated him. He degraded him to Dier's backup and didn't give him any playing time, leading to low confidence and bad form and then exposes him in the most important game against Vini Jr, before throwing him under the bus in front of the media. Remember he was Tuchel's absolute dream transfer last summer.
PSG were a lot healthier during the second part of the season and PSG actually fixed the uses that Tuchel had the following summer. The reason things changed was because PSG were made aware of suspicious coincidences between Leonardo and someone involved in the deal for Icardi, from that point he was pushed aside.
Who lost it? Both but Tuchel managed a team that was severely weakened at the start of the season while Pochettino managed a team that was healthy.
Kim is shit, poor mans Maguire.
PSG walked all of Poch’s league seasons where he managed them from matchday 1 though, unlike ahem…
Chelsea… good one, under Boehly Tuchel lost 3 of his 7 matches so I don’t see Poch doing worse.
And, that’s how good he is right? He’s being compared to Poch.
Another reason I don’t think Tuchel will get the job is he doesn’t really have a good track record with youngsters. Name 1 youngster he’s brought through and they’ve been fairly successful? He’s also been sacked a few times. He also joins clubs that have already been built or made for success straight away. Don’t think he’s ever built his own team as he?
I dun know man, I’ll give you the first defeat of the season that year, but that team that lost 1-0 at home to OSM was a damn strong team, as it was during the home draw to Bordeaux, the Monaco loss, the Lyon defeat.
First of all your time frame is misleading. In the '00s, it was indeed advisable to play a patient reactive game. The majority of the top managers devised their strategy around being solid and pouncing on opponents mistakes. We all remember those Chelsea vs Liverpool ties and plenty of other knock out CL games being cagey tight affairs. The trend is very different in the '10s post Barcelona's Guardiola. The fact that you include Mourinho's Porto as a counter attacking side is also misleading because they weren't. The man himself uses his Porto team as an example to defend himself against the stereotype associated to him.
Besides that, winning the European Cup alone is not the metric for me. The metric is being winning of course but also consistently challenging over a period of 4 or 5 years. What made Sir Alex a legend is not that he just won, it's that his teams were almost always there first, second or third and consistently in the quarters of the CL. Pep will also point out time and again that his greatest achievement is getting City to be always challenging. The best teams from 2010 onwards and tick that criteria are Real, Barcelona, Bayern and lately you'd have to add City and probably Liverpool. Except Real, all these clubs have looked to impose their game and be pro active whether it is through possession or aggressive pressing. I said in another post that I don't think anyone can do what Real does. They're the only club who can struggle to make it past the last 16 of the CL for over half a decade and still manage to lure the two previous Balon d'Or winners from CL winning clubs the way they did with CR and Kaka. The day we or anyone else can have that power, then maybe we can look to emulate them.
Kim at Napoli was better than any of our centre backs. His form is on a record low atm
I doubt I’m adding anything new here, but he’s now the bookies favourite to be the next United manager
Easily the highest profile ‘best in class’ free agent manager we could get this summer imo
Easily the highest profile ‘best in class’ free agent manager we could get this summer imo
Looks like a good choice. At least he has coached at the highest level and shown the ability to succeed. Also his English is great!