This is a ludicrous take that again is based solely on your insane overvaluing of PL goals. Over the last 3 years, Werner has scored as many goals in Europe as Rashford and Martial combined - 11 in both cases.
Toaster Toes Timo Werner | Tottenham Player
- Thread starter Damien
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Roundabouts but I’m just looking beyond the stats and seeing the wider context between the two players and to my mind Martial is just better. I also believe that if both players stay fit next season, Martial will outperform Werner at Chelsea when it comes to goal contributions.
I certainly don’t think my opinion is irrational, I think on the contrary it’s actually quite logical. Martial’s first season as a striker in a fragmented team has been decent. Martial playing in a much better team alongside better creative players will likely improve his output further. Werner has it all to prove in England for me.
We shall see then won’t we. It will be bittersweet when Utd kick on further while Chelsea try and bed in all these new ‘superstars’.
It's completely irrational - one player has scored 3x as many goals as the other this season and for his career has scored more goals than the other guy's best season 4 times, yet you back the guy that's been outscored who is also older? This is more or less the textbook definition of irrationality.
Yeh if you are only looking at the stats...
And how exactly do you know that's going to happen?
Because you've spent an equal amount of time watching Werner this season compared to Martial? So you have an equal handle on all of the unquantifiable intangibles that make Werner worse?
It's fine and normal to be irrational about your players but claiming rationality is frankly silly, especially when the stats are so overwhelmingly in favour of the other side.
How do I know I’m not going to get hit by a bus tomorrow. Just using my own common sense and opinions same as everyone else. I just believe that Utd were always going to get it right eventually, I think we are on the right track. Sleeping giants don’t sleep forever much to the disappointment of our rivals.
I’ve seen Werner enough to know he’s overrated. He’s played well this season in a system that is perfect for him in a league that is far weaker than the Premier League. He’s also had the benefit of playing under no pressure his whole career. It’s a different ballgame playing at Utd especially during a poor period for the club.
I just don’t see how it’s irrational to watch two players and make a judgement between them.
You've had a month and a half of good form after being bang average for the best part of a year, maybe wait a while before doing a Rio post PSG. This reminds me of conversing with Liverpool fans everytime they won a few on the trot under Rafa.
Anyone else think they’ve bought him to play off the left in a similar role to Rashford?
Well I also predicted Liverpool were building a great team prior to their current form and got ridiculed by Utd fans for it and that’s proven correct. Particularly remember saying that Trent and Robertson were good players and again got ridiculed for it. I think Utd will shock afew people next year.
We haven’t played badly all season, just been inconsistent. I have never at any stage been depressed under Ole whereas I was ready to gouge my eyes out under the last 3 managers.
I do reckon he will need time to get going, like Pulisic - great in periods and average in others.
That being said I do believe this is a great signing and it’s hard to argue on value pre-corona. But I also don’t believe we should keep saying ‘devaluation market’ because at the end of the day even a club like Man Utd should have enough income generation to still have money aside for transfer. I believe the smaller clubs with less money will actually inflate fees To cover some losses
That being said I do believe this is a great signing and it’s hard to argue on value pre-corona. But I also don’t believe we should keep saying ‘devaluation market’ because at the end of the day even a club like Man Utd should have enough income generation to still have money aside for transfer. I believe the smaller clubs with less money will actually inflate fees To cover some losses
Almost certainly.
And yet there are more Bundesliga sides in the last 8 of the CL than PL sides. And how on earth can you say that there's more pressure at United when Leipzig have been more serious contenders for the Bundesliga over the past 4 years than you have been for the PL?
Gap from first:
16/17 - RBL (15) Man Utd (24)
17/18 - RBL (29) Man Utd (19)
18/19 - RBL (12) Man Utd (32)
19/20 - RBL (13) Man Utd (37)*
*obviously TBD
Seriously?
Werner has scored 32 goals and 13 assists in 43 games. He's at 107 minutes per goal and at 76 minutes per scorer. Only 4 or 5 of his goals were penalties, if I remember correctly. Rashford has scored 5 in the league alone. So don't get me wrong, Rashford is a special talent, but Werner is much farther in his development. He's accomplished a great, great level of productivity and getting there is not easy.
I'm sorry, but what has this to do with what I said? You may be right, you may be wrong but I didn't make the assumption that Chelsea will have a better squad than you. I don't know that and I don't even care that much, to be honest. All I'm saying is that I think this "it's so easy to score in the Bundesliga, he's not EPL-proven" argument is silly, in my opinion. That doesn't mean that I believe Chelsea will have a great team. Aubameyang also proved his doubters wrong although Arsenal wasn't really competitive at any point during his time there, was it?
Come on now you don’t seriously think playing for Leipzig is the same as Man Utd. One of the biggest clubs in the world, if anything our underperformance puts even greater pressure on the players. Look at Pogba, has largely been excellent since his return and yet the media are out to get him and half the Utd fans eat it up!
Of course it's not a like for like comparison; Hazard was injured most of the year and half fit when he played. We didn't win the league in 15/16, we won it in 14/15. This is a completely disingenuous comparison.
Perhaps I worded this wrong - obviously United have a far far far bigger profile & impact on a world stage than RBL but the implication that Werner had minimal pressure at RBL despite being involved in numerous Bundesliga title races was what I took issue with.
So you think there is more pressure at ManUtd or Leipzig?
Rashford has directly won most of those penalties which denied clear goal scoring chances so it’s hardly fair to use that in the argument. I do see your point, it’s hard to look past the stats as they are very impressive. But when I actually watch him play I’m still left thinking he’s outperforming his actual footballing level.
On the whole, Man Utd obviously. But towards the tail end of the past four or so seasons where Man Utd have little to play for and RBL are playing to potentially win the league, the pendulum swings towards RBL.
Have to say I got my seasons mixed up and deleted the original post! Apologies. I still stand by the general point of my post though. I tend to take numbers from that league with a pinch of salt personally.
If Werner has a bad game who's going to care? Their 1,000 fans and a few Red bull drinkers?
If you miss an open goal like he did the other day that cost them the game he'd be laughed out of Old Trafford.
When was Leipzig ever involved in title race? Just because they are closer to first than ManUtd doesn't mean they were in title race.
Mkhitaryan was a nervous wreck in his first two seasons at Dortmund. Thought too much, messed up easy passes and touches etc. He's a fairly educated guy and some newspapers even asked if he was maybe "too intelligent" for a football player and can't cope with the pressure. This went on for I believe two seasons in which Mkhitaryan became the target of many jokes and sarcasm by Dortmund fans, comparable to Fellaini or Phil Jones at United. Then he had an outstanding season nobody expected and immediately left Dortmund, and not on the best terms. So yeah, he was very, very good in one season but if you knew about his career and especially his time at Dortmund, it was far from obvious that he'd succeed at a top club - especially one that wasn't exactly playing it's best football.
Werner is a different breed. Mkhitaryan was a nervous wreck with stage fright, Werner on the other hand is a terrier who already proved that he can stand the heat.
<3 sorry if I came across as a dickhead!
So no successful United player has ever missed an easy chance? Come one, this is a silly argument
I’d argue there is more pressure on a Man Utd league cup tie vs tranmere than any Leipzig game going, purely because of the scale of Man Utd both with fans and also those rivals waiting in the wings to pounce on any negative Utd news. Every Utd game has more at stake than the individual game/competition we enter.
You clearly know more about the player than I do. I’m really interested to see not only how well he does, but also what position he mainly occupies for Chelsea.
Amazing how people can't even make simple points without exaggeration.
Not at all mate! I should get my facts straight next time!
That's true to an extent. Especially when assessing defenders. They award more aggressive defenders than one's who are more conservative for example. In regard to attacking players, their rating is pretty accurate ( by attacking i am also referring to central and attacking midfielders). Even if their rating is slightly off during one particular game, the consistency of keeping these ratings means that they usually have it right by the end of the season.
As to your point regarding player comparisons, you are right. For example, players on teams that win more will have better ratings as the team as the team as a whole would be able to achieve the statistical benchmark to receive higher ratings. Again, sense has to be applied when making assessments. A midfielder for sheffield united is far less likely to have a higher passing percentage than a player in the same role for Man City. A player like Phil Foden for example, if given regular game time, might achieve a mid to high average rating like 7.2 for City, but if playing for Sheffield United where they would lose more games and have less control of games, and in which the passing options and dribbling space available for City no longer exist, he would recieve a lower average rating as he would fail to reach the required statistical benchmarks.
They were leading the league for much of this past year prior to Flick's appointment at Bayern, last year they were decently close for the first half, etc. Certainly they've mounted more significant title challenges than Man Utd over the past four years; don't think this is disputable
I think your original point is fair though! There does tend to be more scoring in the Bundesliga; my point though is that it's not so extreme as to account for ~3x the output when looking at Werner v. Martial, especially when Werner is the younger of the two.Not at all mate! I should get my facts straight next time!
Yeah I agree - it's far easier to quantify and therefore compare players when there is a tangible statistical output. I think my initial post was too aggressive and I'd walk that back - these sorts of ratings are potentially useful but they're not the end all be all that many make them out to be. I think they're potentially informative when applied in the right way, but to get any value out of them I think they have to be a component of an evaluation as opposed to something definitive.
I guess next season, providing both remain relatively fit, we will get a much better idea of how they stack up. For what it’s worth I actually think both teams are in a fairly even situation right now, so we should be able to draw a decent comparison.
Again you are making the same mistake. Just because they were closer than ManUtd doesn't mean they were title challengers. The pressure of playing for ManUtd and Leipzig is not comparable, no matter how much mental gymnastics we see in this thread.
Last season we were in race for Top 4 till last 3-4 games, before that we were 2nd and FA Cup finals, before that we won Europa league, before that we missed top 4 on goal difference.
It's like saying playing for Molde or Rosenberg or Salzburg has more pressure than Chelsea as they were involved in more title races, yes there is difference between Bundesliga and Norway league and that's the point I'm making.
With regards to Werner's numbers, one needs to be wary of players from teams like Leipzig, where the whole footballing project is so structured and organized to be very efficient. Most of the players and staff in the club will have been handpicked to fill specific roles, which may not translate very well in a broader sense. I think this has been true of a lot of teams in Germany where they don't have the most money so have to make full use of the resources they do have such as scouting, youth development, and coaching.
In any case, he's a good player who has already undergone a good development, so I won't be surprised to see him do well, provided Chelsea has the same "more than sum of it's parts" mindset. If not, he could very well struggle with the league winning expectations. The PL has recently been more of a "money-splashing" league than a developmental league, so there can be a lot of adaptation involved for some players. Although managers like Klopp and Wilder are changing that slowly.
In any case, he's a good player who has already undergone a good development, so I won't be surprised to see him do well, provided Chelsea has the same "more than sum of it's parts" mindset. If not, he could very well struggle with the league winning expectations. The PL has recently been more of a "money-splashing" league than a developmental league, so there can be a lot of adaptation involved for some players. Although managers like Klopp and Wilder are changing that slowly.
Yeah he's definitely a unique striker. He can play on the wing since he's one of the best players out there when it comes to getting behind the defensive line but he can also play as a lone striker. He will interpret the role very dynamically, though, and make lots of runs on the wings etc. He's physically strong but not really a fox in the box type of player. His finishing can be off. He's one of those players that occasionally miss some chances but keep on working until they finally get their goal.
What's special about him, IMO, is his work ethic. Before Brandt had his final breakthrough for us, he often seemed talented but a bit lethargic. I remember a match against RBL in which Werner, as a striker, was still pressing like a maniac in extra time and made a sprint across the whole field to take the ball of Brandt and it was kind of symbolic for their development at that point. This pressing capability is also very interesting in transitional moments. Nowadays the 4-4-2 is the most popular defensive formation for pressing teams which suits Werner very well. He's naturally more of a second striker type and since they press in a 4-4-2, that makes life easier for him if they attack immediately after winning the ball.
I think mentality-wise, he offers almost everything. He even had a very rough time in Germany shortly after he moved to Leipzig (very unpopular club amongst German ultras/die-hard fans). Dived against Schalke which resulted in a goal and afterwards denied it in an interview. They created a song in which they called him a Hurenso*n (son of a b*tch) and basically the whole nation sung it. It became so popular that a German singer adapted it and turned it into a Ballermann hit. Can't remember another German player at that age getting so much stick but it didn't really affect his performances too much and he definitely came back stronger than ever.
He won't hit those big numbers but can see him settling well. Him and Pulisic should add so much more to their attack with their directness.