What is the general consensus on Whoscored player ratings? They have Fred (just) and McTominay (by quite a way) as both performing better that Kovacic on average this season, across all competitions.Fred and McTominayI've heard it all now.
Toaster Toes Timo Werner | Tottenham Player
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
Fred not long ago was being compared to Bakayoko in terms of disaster of a signing. Yes he's improved to lately but to claim so to the point he's better than the best performing player in a team above his is laughable.
Pogba and Kovacic play totally different roles, you may aswell compare Ziyech and Shaw.
Funny you mention Mutu because he genuinely looked as good as Henry in his first month in the PL, so going by that metric isn't it too early to include Bruno in any arguments?
They've been earmarked and bought specifically to fit the playstyle. Also it's telling that you aren't objecting to Bruno's inclusion when he's played all of 5 matches for United. Morata in contrast looked brilliant for 6 months until he did his back.
Again over the course of the season he does more defensive work than Fred and does it better, not getting beat the majority of the time
In that game in particular Fred won the ball more while Kovacic made 21 more passes with 89% accuracy to Fred's 80%. Kovacic made 5 completed dribbles and won 4 fouls on top. Fred 0 dribbles winning 1 foul.
What is it you think Kovacic wants to do against you to play his game? Bypass your midfield with dribbles forward, winning freekicks and setting his team on the attack with lots of accurate passes. He can and does the defensive side of the game better too.
Even in that video above Kovacic is skipping past Fred with ease. Granted most players do
They're utter nonsense given the way they adjust things by position. Also if you do the relevant comparison by position, it looks like this:
Defensive midfielder:
Kovacic - 7.33 (7 appearances)
McTominay - 7.3 (19 appearances)
Fred - 7.27 (21 appearances)
Central midfielder:
Kovacic - 7.25 (17 appearances)
McTominay - 6.96 (3 appearances)
Fred - 6.86 (6 appearances)
Sancho is a good player but no chance he would fully replicate his form for Dortmund in the Premier League. Don’t get me wrong I’d still like him because Utd are crying out for a proper RW but I still think playing in Germany is a question mark.
Look you don’t rate Martial, fair enough. I think he’s absolute class and as the team around him improves he will be undisputed world class. He’s got everything in his game, just needs to put it all together more consistently. The obvious reason behind his numbers the last few seasons is having a truly terrible dinosaur of a manager called Mourinho who thought he could manage us like a small time club and ostracised our best players.
You love statsAgain over the course of the season he does more defensive work than Fred and does it better, not getting beat the majority of the time
In that game in particular Fred won the ball more while Kovacic made 21 more passes with 89% accuracy to Fred's 80%. Kovacic made 5 completed dribbles and won 4 fouls on top. Fred 0 dribbles winning 1 foul.
What is it you think Kovacic wants to do against you to play his game? Bypass your midfield with dribbles forward, winning freekicks and setting his team on the attack with lots of accurate passes. He can and does the defensive side of the game better too.
Even in that video above Kovacic is skipping past Fred with ease. Granted most players do
The funny thing is that I do rate Martial - I think he's been unfairly maligned for much of his time at United and used in ways that are suboptimal. That said, he's older than Werner & has never come close to matching his production at the highest level. I took issue with your statement that he'd walk in, which seems blinkered at best.
Also to add further to that Bruno and Pogba haven't played a single second together yet are being plonked in these combined Xls together and people are salivating at the thought of them playing together.
I just think in a combined 11, Martial is clearly the best number 9 in both teams and Rashford is the best LW so they both get in the team. Maybe Werner is good enough to get in and time will tell but he’s not better than Martial as a 9 or Rashford on the left currently.
Which is fair enough, but it’s also logical that our best player (Pogba) will come in and play well with our new best player. Generally quality players play better alongside better players so it’s logical to assume they will perform to a very high level.
Atleast Bruno have played in the Premier league with United. No we cannot know for sure if any player will keep his form. But this season Fred have been growing each match and well the whole premier league have embraced Bruno. Not everyone fits into the premier league simples, so i want to see them play here before i can agree on them earning a spot in the combined 11.
So if you think its laughable that Fred is my choice ahead of Kovacic then we have to agree to disagree. United came out best of our games this season simples.
There's not a great history with attacking based midfielders playing together. At best one has to adapt and restrict his natural game (like Ballack did for Lampard) and at worst neither are willing too which leaves them both looking pale shadows of their best self (Lampard and Gerrard). You also looked really balanced with Bruno and two other less adventurous midfielders, there's a risk/chance Pogba's return could blow all that.
I grant you it looks good on paper but until it looks good in practice I wouldn't include both in a United best Xl, let alone a combined United/Chelsea one.
Last edited:
I mean, it seems as though we just fundamentally disagree about the extent to which PL goals matter - the only way this statement makes sense is if you consider goals in the PL to be 2-3 times more informative of a player's quality than goals elsewhere.
If we're going to base it on head to heads then doesn't that put Xhaka above Fred?
I just don’t think Werner is as good as is being made out, despite his stats. Mkhitaryan had fantastic stats too and i never rated him all that highly either. I don’t think you can simply look at the goals, you have to look at the wider context of the player and I think Martial has shown that in less than ideal conditions over the last few seasons he’s contributed to some big moments and continues to improve as a player.
The other thing I would add is that Werner just doesn’t strike me as a lone striker in a 4-3-3 formation (which I’m basing my combined 11 on) and so again it’s natural you’d choose martial to play up front and Rashford on the left.
Has Xhaka outplayed Fred. Don’t remember Xhaka ever being anything other than crap against us bar one wonder strike.
Could you guys PLEASE stop bringing up Mkhitaryan in these discussions?
People in here like to speak about Premier League proven. Mkhitaryan wasn't even Bundesliga proven.dortmund fans wanted him gone for the most part of his Dortmund spell. United bought a one season wonder, nothing to do with the competitiveness of the league.
Think in a few years, people will laugh about the first pages of this thread.
Well Arsenal looked much better than you at The Emirates and you only escaped a unprecedented home loss against them because Saka fired over from point blank. But either way the point is the result doesn't mean a player won their particular battle and it certainly wasn't the case with Kova vs Fred. Kova, Mount and Jorginho all played well that night despite the result.
They aren't rubbish if given context and understanding of the site. For example, substitute appearances weigh heavily into the overall score. So Kovacic for example has 8 sub appearances, which is rather high.
A good rating for a DM is 7.2, but for a more advanced player to be viewed as have a great season, that is around 7.4 and up
Martial and Rashford have great potential, possibly more than Werner, but the latter is currently the best football player out of the three.
Mkhitaryan had 11 goals and 15 assists his last season at Dortmund at age 27. Werner with 2 games to go has 26 goals and 8 assists at age 23-24.
These platitudes about Martial are nice and all but ultimately are meaningless without production. The fact is that Werner absolutely destroys him in terms of what you actually want an attacking player to do in a tangible, quantifiable sense all whilst being about 9 months younger.
I just think they're fundamentally arbitrary and widely misinterpreted unless you use them to make very narrow 1 to 1 comparisons - because they weigh stats differently based on a player's position (which is somewhat arbitrarily determined & and is highly dependent on game state), simply going in and saying "X has a higher rating than Y, therefore he's better" is just silly.
Maybe the 4th was a counter but its the 4 in a 4-0 win. None of the others are counters. We won the ball but Rashfords 2nd was from a crossfield pass to a striker making a great run? Its poor defending. They just weren't cointers, just because you lose the ball doesn't mean its a counter. Even Martials goal had 7nor 8 Chelsea players back by the time it came in from wide.
Teams have been getting at your defence from one ball all season. Its just bad defending
You keep bringing up Arsenal but even Chelsea couldnt beat 10 men at home and were outplayed by them for 80 minutes at the Emirates. Sometimes it just happens. Thats why we signed Bruno after all and have been motoring since
Decent signing for Chelsea. Nothing is ever guaranteed but he'll possibly improve them.
Musy be why Chelaea crumble every time they face a side not outside the top 10 with all that fantastic defensive work Kovacic does.Again over the course of the season he does more defensive work than Fred and does it better, not getting beat the majority of the time
In that game in particular Fred won the ball more while Kovacic made 21 more passes with 89% accuracy to Fred's 80%. Kovacic made 5 completed dribbles and won 4 fouls on top. Fred 0 dribbles winning 1 foul.
What is it you think Kovacic wants to do against you to play his game? Bypass your midfield with dribbles forward, winning freekicks and setting his team on the attack with lots of accurate passes. He can and does the defensive side of the game better too.
Even in that video above Kovacic is skipping past Fred with ease. Granted most players do
A real rock in that midfield.
Arsenal didn't outplay us for 80 mins atall, first half hour maybe but as soon as Lampard fixed his error and brought Jorginho on I think Arsenal had one shot in an about an hour and sat back in a way that would make Pulis blush.
The point is Mkhitaryan and others highlight that stats in other leagues are not always transferable. Honestly I don’t think Werner is a bad transfer or a bad player but he’s being a little overrated. He’s not a game changer in my mind.
I understand that Martial is a player who is debated even amongst Utd fans but I still think he’s ready to make a big stride forward. It will potentially be an interesting battle in the future between Werner and Martial but Im still backing Martial.
Rashford and Martial are beginning to deliver on that potential this season. Rashford in particular was amongst the best forwards in the league, not based on potential but based on real performances. It’s relatively simple for me, who would make ms more fearful as an opponent and I’d fear Martial and Rashford far more than Werner currently.
Our record against the top 10.
W 7
D 5
L 5
Outside of United our record Vs the top half teams is pretty good.
We were poor in that game, doesn’t mean we aren’t a far better team than Arsenal though. I’d still back us to beat them more often than not over the next few seasons.
On paper, it seems like a fantastic signing for Chelsea. Perfect age to be experienced enough but still considered a young player to have a resale possibility, great numbers in terms of goals and assists and definitely a more than reasonable transfer fees.
It just seems too perfect for my liking.
It just seems too perfect for my liking.
I think In afew years people will laugh for suggesting Chelsea have a better squad than Utd. Time will tell.
That was in a roundabout way exactly the point I was trying to make, basically head to heads are just a tiny tiny fraction of what makes a team/season.
I think a month will tell to be honest. I can really see them struggle
Yawn.
Chelsea fans with Chelsea biased opinions. United fans with United biased opinions. Round and round we go. Nothing good will come from this tired old debate.
Chelsea fans with Chelsea biased opinions. United fans with United biased opinions. Round and round we go. Nothing good will come from this tired old debate.
So are you saying we're an even more brittle rock because we have crumbled more often than them against lesser sides despite spending £125 million on defensive players this summer?
I actually think Chelsea will finish the season well, but I just think Utd will finish it really strongly and still beat them into the top 4.
Point to something that would suggest Kovacic has a game where he has dominated and done what he has wanted to without using numbers.You love stats
Numbers are all over football. Its literally all about them.
3 points or 0. 1 more goal or 1 less goal than your opposition and so on. Which teams and players with terrible "stats" ever won anything?
But you're looking at a single example with a less impressive season at an older age and using that to suggest that a guy who's scored 3 times as many goals at a younger age is somehow worse than Martial?
Also, you're all but admitting that you are being irrational vis a vis Martial - this makes sense because from a basic output perspective there is absolutely no argument to take Martial over Werner.